ThePortForum.com

jdaw1 wrote: ↑11:48 Wed 11 May 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑22:22 Tue 10 May 2022a bottle of Quinta de Vale da Figueira 1997

Fg? Note, ≠ FG.

Due to issues related to case-sensitive searching (and the scope for typos) I’m not a fan of Fg given the existence of FG.

M.Charlton wrote: ↑12:53 Wed 11 May 2022

jdaw1 wrote: ↑11:48 Wed 11 May 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑22:22 Tue 10 May 2022a bottle of Quinta de Vale da Figueira 1997

Fg? Note, ≠ FG.

Due to issues related to case-sensitive searching (and the scope for typos) I’m not a fan of Fg given the existence of FG.

Am inclined to agree. Would prefer maybe VFg, or even VF.

PhilW wrote: ↑12:43 Wed 11 May 2022Hv?

Hv = Harvey: works for me.

MigSU wrote: ↑13:05 Wed 11 May 2022VF

VF = Quinta de Val da Figueira: works for me.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:12 Wed 11 May 2022 Hv = Harvey: works for me.
VF = Quinta de Val da Figueira: works for me.

Done.

Hv and VF make sense to me.

nac wrote: ↑14:06 Thu 21 Apr 2022Reccua 1995

Not Rc, as

PhilW wrote: ↑13:51 Tue 28 May 2013Rc = Porto Rocha

In Portuguese pronunciation, which is the strongest vowel?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:28 Fri 03 Jun 2022

nac wrote: ↑14:06 Thu 21 Apr 2022Reccua 1995

Not Rc, as

PhilW wrote: ↑13:51 Tue 28 May 2013Rc = Porto Rocha

In Portuguese pronunciation, which is the strongest vowel?

In Portuguese the pronunciation should be something like RO-cha. Absent any form of accent in a word, emphasis is normally on the 2nd to last syllable. There are exceptions and oddities, of course, but that's normally how it works. (And is also how I've always heard Rocha pronounced.)

Yes, that's correct. RRÉ-cua, RRÓ-sha (double 'R' to show that it's not a rolling 'R').

So Re = Reccua ?

I'd be tempted to go with Rc if it isn't already in use. The 'é' isn't noteable to me in the pronunciation, whereas the 'cc' is.

Also, for the record, I believe it is Porto Réccua.

Well, both have an equally strong case to get Rc if we're going by pronunciation. Sooo.....coin toss?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑23:48 Fri 03 Jun 2022 I'd be tempted to go with Rc if it isn't already in use. The 'é' isn't noteable to me in the pronunciation, whereas the 'cc' is.

MigSU wrote: ↑02:23 Sat 04 Jun 2022 Well, both have an equally strong case to get Rc if we're going by pronunciation. Sooo.....coin toss?

No, Rc is already in use for Rocha, so not available for consideration, unless we felt sufficiently strongly to overturn previous decisions and use; in this case I do not think that is warranted.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑22:57 Fri 03 Jun 2022 So Re = Reccua ?

Works for me.

PhilW wrote: ↑07:17 Sat 04 Jun 2022 No, Rc is already in use for Rocha, so not available for consideration, unless we felt sufficiently strongly to overturn previous decisions and use; in this case I do not think that is warranted.

Ah, fair enough. Re it is, then.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑23:48 Fri 03 Jun 2022Also, for the record, I believe it is Porto Réccua.

Porto Réccua Vinhos, and hence it must be

PhilW wrote: ↑13:51 Tue 28 May 2013Ré = Réccua

as used in the placemats for the LBV tasting on 23rd June 2022.

I need an abbreviation for the single quinta Port from Duorum's Castelo Melhor estate. Any objections to DuCM?

The proposed two letter suffix avoids any confusion which might just possibly arise from the Quinta dos Canais wines from Cockburn or the Cavadinha wines from Warre, both of which have a suffix of xxC.

How do we abbreviate the Adam's labelled wines from Royal Oporto? ROA?

And how about FH for the occasional Factory House blends which were made from time to time?

Casa Santa Eufemia have been making and shipping Vintage Port for a while. I know them to have shipped wines from 1999, 2003, 2010 and 2016.

Should they be abbreviated to CSE?

Quinta Dona Matilde? DM?

Quinta da Eira Velha? Which has made wines under the names of Hunt Roope, Martinez, and its own name (as part of the SFE portfolio).

EV either on its own or as a suffix to HR or Mz - which also leads to the question of what should be the abbreviation for Hunt Roope...

Hunt Roope = TH.



We’ve used EV for Eira Velha, perhaps not consistently with other abbreviations. E.g.:

• 1992s on 6 Apr 2022;
• 1994s on 11 June 2019;
• 1945s on 9 May 2015;
• 1982s on 21 June 2010;
• 1978s on 14 May 2010;
• 1997s on 18 July 2008.

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:07 Sun 05 Jun 2022 I need an abbreviation for the single quinta Port from Duorum's Castelo Melhor estate. Any objections to DuCM?

The proposed two letter suffix avoids any confusion which might just possibly arise from the Quinta dos Canais wines from Cockburn or the Cavadinha wines from Warre, both of which have a suffix of xxC.

DuCM works for me.
n.b. If it were just Dourum Castelo, I would have had no problem with DuC, we only need to ensure the quinta part is unique per-brand imo. However per Agua Alta and others, Castelo Melhor would naturally be CM for me, so DuCM makes sense.

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:10 Sun 05 Jun 2022 How do we abbreviate the Adam's labelled wines from Royal Oporto? ROA?

Ad for Adams. The fact it happens to be RO underneath is not relevant, naming by brand.
n.b. I'm surprised not to find it already in the list; in which case this is proposed.

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:17 Sun 05 Jun 2022 And how about FH for the occasional Factory House blends which were made from time to time?

Agreed, and indeed already used by myself elsewhere.

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:39 Sun 05 Jun 2022 Casa Santa Eufemia have been making and shipping Vintage Port for a while. I know them to have shipped wines from 1999, 2003, 2010 and 2016.
Should they be abbreviated to CSE?

Personally would prefer SE. Up for discussion of other options, preferences?

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:47 Sun 05 Jun 2022 Quinta Dona Matilde? DM?

Works for me, though with a warning as mentioned previously - we have a lot of new single-quinta brands in recent years. I've started using a small q in front for some purposes, i.e. for this I would use qDM. I'm not expecting to backward fit, though I personally am using e.g. qLR instead of LR now, and this could potentially help if the expansion of SQ brands continues.

PhilW wrote: ↑11:44 Sun 05 Jun 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:39 Sun 05 Jun 2022 Casa Santa Eufemia have been making and shipping Vintage Port for a while. I know them to have shipped wines from 1999, 2003, 2010 and 2016.
Should they be abbreviated to CSE?

Personally would prefer SE. Up for discussion of other options, preferences?

There's also a Quinta de Santa Eufémia (which interestingly is right next to Casa de Santa Eufémia). Using just SE might cause confusion (unless Quinta de Santa Eufémia already has an abbreviation).

MigSU wrote:There's also a Quinta de Santa Eufémia (which interestingly is right next to Casa de Santa Eufémia). Using just SE might cause confusion (unless Quinta de Santa Eufémia already has an abbreviation).

Thank you for clarifying; I was not aware of both - and indeed was thinking of Quinta de Santa Eufémia, demonstrating exactly the potential confusion you describe. In which case I would suggest:
SE : Quinta de Santa Eufémia (qSE for me)
CSE : Casa de Santa Eufémia



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jdaw1 wrote: ↑11:21 Sun 05 Jun 2022 Hunt Roope = TH.

I didn't realise that. I'll amend the list to reflect the fact that Hunt Roope and Tuke Holdsworth are the same producer and therefore have the same abbreviation despite the difference in brand - analogous to Dalva and Presidential.

MigSU wrote: ↑11:48 Sun 05 Jun 2022

PhilW wrote: ↑11:44 Sun 05 Jun 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:39 Sun 05 Jun 2022Casa Santa Eufemia have been making and shipping Vintage Port for a while. I know them to have shipped wines from 1999, 2003, 2010 and 2016.
Should they be abbreviated to CSE?

Personally would prefer SE. Up for discussion of other options, preferences?

There's also a Quinta de Santa Eufémia (which interestingly is right next to Casa de Santa Eufémia). Using just SE might cause confusion (unless Quinta de Santa Eufémia already has an abbreviation).

Previously discussed in these pages. E.g., from here, and elsewhere.

Alex Bridgeman wrote:

jdaw1 wrote: ↑11:21 Sun 05 Jun 2022 Hunt Roope = TH.

I didn't realise that. I'll amend the list to reflect the fact that Hunt Roope and Tuke Holdsworth are the same producer and therefore have the same abbreviation despite the difference in brand - analogous to Dalva and Presidential.

Hold on... I don't agree here - different brand should be different abbreviation for me. I would use TH Tuke Holdsworth, HR Hunt Roope (per other comment re Adams and ROC, and others etc)

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PhilW wrote: ↑11:44 Sun 05 Jun 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:17 Sun 05 Jun 2022 And how about FH for the occasional Factory House blends which were made from time to time?

Agreed, and indeed already used by myself elsewhere.

On 19 Dec 2017 we used FH for “Factory House Blend”; on 12 Oct 2010 we used BPFHB for “Buckingham Palace Factory House Blend”.

PhilW wrote: ↑12:06 Sun 05 Jun 2022SE : Quinta de Santa Eufémia (qSE for me)
CSE : Casa de Santa Eufémia

We don’t use a ‘Q’ because it is a low-information word, much as we don’t use a ‘d’ for ‘do’.

But in this case the ‘Q’ is high-information. Unless the Quinta is manifestly the senior property (howsoever specified), I’d prefer QSE and CSE.

PhilW wrote: ↑11:44 Sun 05 Jun 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:07 Sun 05 Jun 2022 I need an abbreviation for the single quinta Port from Duorum's Castelo Melhor estate. Any objections to DuCM?

The proposed two letter suffix avoids any confusion which might just possibly arise from the Quinta dos Canais wines from Cockburn or the Cavadinha wines from Warre, both of which have a suffix of xxC.

DuCM works for me.
n.b. If it were just Dourum Castelo, I would have had no problem with DuC, we only need to ensure the quinta part is unique per-brand imo. However per Agua Alta and others, Castelo Melhor would naturally be CM for me, so DuCM makes sense.

DuCM works for me.

PhilW wrote: ↑11:44 Sun 05 Jun 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:10 Sun 05 Jun 2022 How do we abbreviate the Adam's labelled wines from Royal Oporto? ROA?

Ad for Adams. The fact it happens to be RO underneath is not relevant, naming by brand.
n.b. I'm surprised not to find it already in the list; in which case this is proposed.

We have used Ad for Adams. E.g.:

• 1966s on 10 Sep 2019;
• 1963s on 11 Oct 2013;
• 1955s on 12 Oct 2010;
• 1966s on 28 Jan 2008.

If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

PhilW wrote: ↑11:44 Sun 05 Jun 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑10:47 Sun 05 Jun 2022 Quinta Dona Matilde? DM?

Works for me, though with a warning as mentioned previously - we have a lot of new single-quinta brands in recent years. I've started using a small q in front for some purposes, i.e. for this I would use qDM. I'm not expecting to backward fit, though I personally am using e.g. qLR instead of LR now, and this could potentially help if the expansion of SQ brands continues.

Is there a Dow Quinta d… M… (other than the very recherché “Dow’s Q de M” 1887, on page 99 (edit: also p444) of the first edition of the book)? If not, then DM works for me, which wouldn’t be confused with

PhilW wrote: ↑13:51 Tue 28 May 2013VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria

jdaw1 wrote: ↑12:39 Sun 05 Jun 2022

PhilW wrote: ↑12:06 Sun 05 Jun 2022SE : Quinta de Santa Eufémia (qSE for me)
CSE : Casa de Santa Eufémia

We don’t use a ‘Q’ because it is a low-information word, much as we don’t use a ‘d’ for ‘do’.

But in this case the ‘Q’ is high-information. Unless the Quinta is manifestly the senior property (howsoever specified), I’d prefer QSE and CSE.

No real disagreement here. I've started using a lower-case q for some of these because it seems natural and I remember what it means more easily that way - and lower case since it's low-information (albeit discriminatory) - but understand that on here we'll stay with LR rather than qLR since non-discriminatory (for now at least) and shorter (brevity preference when using abbreviations for placemats). If we're adding the q/Q (for discrimination and/or other reasons) then I have a minor preference for qSE over QSE (since the q/Q *always* means q/Quinta).

PhilW wrote: ↑13:13 Sun 05 Jun 2022then I have a minor preference for qSE over QSE (since the q/Q *always* means q/Quinta).

Any preference between CSE and cSE?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑12:47 Sun 05 Jun 2022 If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

If I may re-state: If it is an Adam’s branded bottle, it is Ad. If it is branded as Royal Oporto (bottled by Adam’s), it is RO.
I believe the bottles being referred to are Adam's brand, which happen to contain ROC (and hence are Adam's bottled RO/ROC, but it is the label brand which leads).

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:14 Sun 05 Jun 2022

PhilW wrote: ↑13:13 Sun 05 Jun 2022then I have a minor preference for qSE over QSE (since the q/Q *always* means q/Quinta).

Any preference between CSE and cSE?

No preference. If there were lots of "Casa ..." in the same way we have lots of "Quinta ..." then I suspect we would colloquially drop the Casa in the same way we often drop the Quinta do/da/... and refer just to Vesuvio, La Rosa, etc; in which case a lower-case c would make sense; but as a one-off this might be considered a more significant part of the name, hence upper-case might make sense. No strong feeling either way.

PhilW wrote: ↑13:15 Sun 05 Jun 2022

jdaw1 wrote: ↑12:47 Sun 05 Jun 2022If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

If I may re-state: If it is an Adam’s branded bottle, it is Ad. If it is branded as Royal Oporto (bottled by Adam’s), it is RO.
I believe the bottles being referred to are Adam's brand, which happen to contain ROC (and hence are Adam's bottled RO/ROC, but it is the label brand which leads).

So these are ROC, with a known particular English bottler ⟹︎ ROC.

PhilW wrote: ↑13:19 Sun 05 Jun 2022

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:14 Sun 05 Jun 2022

PhilW wrote: ↑13:13 Sun 05 Jun 2022then I have a minor preference for qSE over QSE (since the q/Q *always* means q/Quinta).

Any preference between CSE and cSE?

No preference. If there were lots of "Casa ..." in the same way we have lots of "Quinta ..." then I suspect we would colloquially drop the Casa in the same way we often drop the Quinta do/da/... and refer just to Vesuvio, La Rosa, etc; in which case a lower-case c would make sense; but as a one-off this might be considered a more significant part of the name, hence upper-case might make sense. No strong feeling either way.

I much prefer they match: {qSE, cSE}, or {QSE, CSE}.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:22 Sun 05 Jun 2022

PhilW wrote: ↑13:15 Sun 05 Jun 2022

jdaw1 wrote: ↑12:47 Sun 05 Jun 2022If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

If I may re-state: If it is an Adam’s branded bottle, it is Ad. If it is branded as Royal Oporto (bottled by Adam’s), it is RO.
I believe the bottles being referred to are Adam's brand, which happen to contain ROC (and hence are Adam's bottled RO/ROC, but it is the label brand which leads).

So these are ROC, with a known particular english bottler ⟹︎ ROC.

More confusion I think.

Please compare with:
(a) Warre 1970, bottled by BBR, sold as "Berry's Own Selection 1970 vintage port" ⟹︎ BBR70
(b) Warre 1970, bottled by BBR, sold as "Warre 1970 vintage port, bottled by BBR" ⟹︎ W70

Similarly:
(c) Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963, bottled by Real Companhia General, sold as "Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963 vintage port" ⟹︎ ROC63
(d) Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963, bottled by Real Companhia General, sold as "Adam's 1963 vintage port" ⟹︎ Ad63
(e) Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963, bottled by Adam's, sold as "Adam's 1963 vintage port, bottled by Adam's" ⟹︎ Ad63
(f) Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963, bottled by Adam's, sold as "Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963 vintage port, bottled by Adam's" ⟹︎ ROC63
I'm only aware of the existence of (c) and (d), and suspect Alex was asking about (d).
I do not know whether Adam's ever performed the bottling of any vintages sold under their brand.

That’s fair.

Are BBR70 and W70 the same?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:56 Sun 05 Jun 2022 That’s fair.

Are BBR70 and W70 the same?

We don’t know. Nor do BBR. Perhaps Peter Symington knows but no-one else seems to be certain.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:22 Sun 05 Jun 2022

PhilW wrote: ↑13:15 Sun 05 Jun 2022

jdaw1 wrote: ↑12:47 Sun 05 Jun 2022If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

If I may re-state: If it is an Adam’s branded bottle, it is Ad. If it is branded as Royal Oporto (bottled by Adam’s), it is RO.
I believe the bottles being referred to are Adam's brand, which happen to contain ROC (and hence are Adam's bottled RO/ROC, but it is the label brand which leads).

So these are ROC, with a known particular English bottler ⟹︎ ROC.

I’m with Phil on this one. Adams is a brand in the Royal Oporto Portfolio just as Real Companhia Velha is, or Real Vinícola or a number of other brands. We don’t know if the same wine was blended and bottled under a myriad of labels or whether each brand had its own, unique blend.

If we have referred to the wine as Ad in the past, let’s adopt that as an agreed use. We have seen and posted tasting notes on several vintages of Adams Ports.

The following:
Ad = Adam's
DM = Quinta Dona Matilde
DuCM = Duorum Castelo Melhor
EV = Quinta da Eira Vehla
FH = Factory House
cSE = Casa de Santa Eufémia
qSE = Quinta de Santa Eufémia
are all now added to list, as I believe we have general agreement on these.

The one still potentially at issue might be EV for "Quinta da Eira Vehla" which I have included above since all of the examples I can find across the various ownerships, all seem to use "Quinta da Eira Vehla" as the brand whether then in small text below it happens to be shipped/produced/bottled by Hunt Roope or Martinez Gassiot, so despite different ownership the brand was still the same, hence same abbreviation.

PhilW wrote: ↑10:13 Mon 06 Jun 2022 The following:
Ad = Adam's
DM = Quinta Dona Matilde
DuCM = Duorum Castelo Melhor
EV = Quinta da Eira Vehla
FH = Factory House
cSE = Casa de Santa Eufémia
qSE = Quinta de Santa Eufémia
are all now added to list, as I believe we have general agreement on these.

The one still potentially at issue might be EV for "Quinta da Eira Vehla" which I have included above since all of the examples I can find across the various ownerships, all seem to use "Quinta da Eira Vehla" as the brand whether then in small text below it happens to be shipped/produced/bottled by Hunt Roope or Martinez Gassiot, so despite different ownership the brand was still the same, hence same abbreviation.

"Velha", not "Vehla".

MigSU wrote: ↑10:27 Mon 06 Jun 2022 "Velha", not "Vehla".

Thank you. And damn, as I've made that mistake in a lot of places. Damn. Thank you again though.

CSE and QSE used to be the same estate. There was a falling out. The stocks and property were divided. Now we have two.

I do not like using cSE or qSE as we generally only use lower case letters when they are part of the same word as a prior capital letter. I would prefer SE(c) and SE(q) if one feels that 'c' and 'q' are simply clarifiers, but my first choice would be all caps for both.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:24 Sun 05 Jun 2022I much prefer they match: {qSE, cSE}, or {QSE, CSE}.

This seems to be consensus.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑23:30 Mon 06 Jun 2022I do not like using cSE or qSE as we generally only use lower case letters when they are part of the same word as a prior capital letter.

This rule has historically applied to lower case letters which are not the first character of the abbreviation. Could the rule be different for commencing characters?

As the abbreviations are used on the placemats, for which concision is a strong desideratum, I oppose the parentheses.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑07:37 Tue 07 Jun 2022

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:24 Sun 05 Jun 2022I much prefer they match: {qSE, cSE}, or {QSE, CSE}.

This seems to be consensus.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑23:30 Mon 06 Jun 2022I do not like using cSE or qSE as we generally only use lower case letters when they are part of the same word as a prior capital letter.

This rule has historically applied to lower case letters which are not the first character of the abbreviation. Could the rule be different for commencing characters?

As the abbreviations are used on the placemats, for which concision is a strong desideratum, I oppose the parentheses.

As these are the first proposals to break the above rule, I would argue that the above rule was as I stated and not as you stated. To be clear it was not explicit, but since no prior examples of an abbreviation with a lower case first letter exist it is difficult to prove that it was allowed.

I do not like the look. iT rEmInDs Me Of MiLlEnIaLs AnD ZeNnIaLs TyPiNg LiKe ThIs.

BuT iF i Am ThE sOlE nAy VoTe, I wIlL cOnCeDe.

I vote for QSE and CSE.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑16:43 Tue 07 Jun 2022As these are the first proposals to break the above rule, I would argue that the above rule was as I stated and not as you stated. To be clear it was not explicit, but since no prior examples of an abbreviation with a lower case first letter exist it is difficult to prove that it was allowed.

What I meant to say that was the previously observed behaviour was consistent with an exception for the first character; not that it necessarily was that. I accept that Ockham’s razor favours your interpretation.

MigSU wrote: ↑17:05 Tue 07 Jun 2022I vote for QSE and CSE.

No objection from me. Are there any objections?