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PhilW wrote: ↑12:06 Sun 05 Jun 2022

MigSU wrote:There's also a Quinta de Santa Eufémia (which interestingly is right next to Casa de Santa Eufémia). Using just SE might cause confusion (unless Quinta de Santa Eufémia already has an abbreviation).

Thank you for clarifying; I was not aware of both - and indeed was thinking of Quinta de Santa Eufémia, demonstrating exactly the potential confusion you describe. In which case I would suggest:
SE : Quinta de Santa Eufémia (qSE for me)
CSE : Casa de Santa Eufémia



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Would it make more sense to have Quinta de Santa Eufemia as QSE? Someone seeing just the SE alone could confuse it with Casa de Santa Eufemia.
It would also be consistent with the CSE if you used QSE.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:24 Sun 05 Jun 2022I much prefer they match: {qSE, cSE}, or {QSE, CSE}.

Capitals seem to be winning.

jdaw1 wrote:

jdaw1 wrote: ↑13:24 Sun 05 Jun 2022I much prefer they match: {qSE, cSE}, or {QSE, CSE}.

Capitals seem to be winning.

Indeed, I think I'm the only person voting the other way, so capitals it shall be.

Belatedly since Phil has conceded, I will express a preference for capitals.

As CSE and QSE I'm assuming they will now have to appear separately in the list, whereas with cSE and qSE they could be positioned together at the "SE" point ignoring the pre-pend.

Well, they are different producers, now.

MigSU wrote: ↑09:59 Thu 09 Jun 2022 Well, they are different producers, now.

Exactly. The have some old stocks in common, but have gone separate ways at this point. IIRC they have even diverged as to which categories they produce.

The outcome of a previous struggle has been proven correct.

DSR happily avoids collision with DR Port. Which is technically Agri-Roncao DR Port, but I have never heard it referred to by the long name.

So... vintages go back to 2001. A newer player in VP, but one that is very famous for their outstanding tawny Ports.

What to call DR Port? Options seem to be AR (technically correct, but confusing due to non-use) or DR (confusing as per DB, DG, DSR, etc.) or the option certain to give jdaw1 a migraine, ARDR which looks and sounds like a Star Wars droid.

To the best of my knowledge it has never been used, but the possibility exists for Agri-Roncao to release a DR Port from Quinta da Levandeira do Roncao. This, annoyingly for me, seems to point toward AR being the correct abbreviation with ARLR or ARL being the hypothetical SQVP.

For reference:

Glenn E. wrote: ↑22:17 Tue 04 Oct 2022 The outcome of a previous struggle has been proven correct.

DSR happily avoids collision with DR Port. Which is technically Agri-Roncao DR Port, but I have never heard it referred to by the long name.

So... vintages go back to 2001. A newer player in VP, but one that is very famous for their outstanding tawny Ports.

What to call DR Port? Options seem to be AR (technically correct, but confusing due to non-use) or DR (confusing as per DB, DG, DSR, etc.) or the option certain to give jdaw1 a migraine, ARDR which looks and sounds like a Star Wars droid.

To the best of my knowledge it has never been used, but the possibility exists for Agri-Roncao to release a DR Port from Quinta da Levandeira do Roncao. This, annoyingly for me, seems to point toward AR being the correct abbreviation with ARLR or ARL being the hypothetical SQVP.

Abbreviations are set on brand rather than company (unless they are the same thing) therefore no need to mention the company name of Agri-Roncao for me. Branding is clearly DR, and at least to date that abbreviation is available, so would be my preference. Note examples such as Gonzales Byass as GB, even though we have Graham (G) and Graham Malvedos (GM), and similar. A DR-branded single quinta from Quinta da Levandeira do Roncao would then be DRLR, but let's worry about that if/when it happens.

DR makes by far the most sense to me, but I was attempting to be objective and perhaps overshot the mark.

No objection to DR = DR Port.

Ft = Fletcher ?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:59 Wed 16 Nov 2022 Ft = Fletcher ?

Works for me.

I'd prefer Fl.

Ft just makes me think of Feist.

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑17:46 Mon 28 Nov 2022I'd prefer Fl.

I don’t love the ‘l’ = lower-case el: too much like an ‘I’ = upper-case eye, or a ‘1’ = digit one. If not Ft, would Fc be acceptable?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:07 Tue 29 Nov 2022

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑17:46 Mon 28 Nov 2022I'd prefer Fl.

I don’t love the ‘l’ = lower-case el: too much like an ‘I’ = upper-case eye, or a ‘1’ = digit one. If not Ft, would Fc be acceptable?

Too true, I first read it as FI (capital eye) before seeing it was referring to Fletcher and taking another look.

Thirded.

Fc better.

Fc: done; now in first post.

Pd = Quinta da Prelada ?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:49 Thu 20 Apr 2023 Pd = Quinta da Prelada ?

Hmm. I see Pd and I don't think Prelada. It makes me think that there must be some producer named Quinta do Pedro.

Pl? No.

Pr? Not really, but better than the others for me.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:45 Fri 21 Apr 2023Hmm. I see Pd and I don't think Prelada. It makes me think that there must be some producer named Quinta do Pedro.

Hmm. Not so much for me, but OK.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:45 Fri 21 Apr 2023Pl? No.

Agreed.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:45 Fri 21 Apr 2023Pr? Not really, but better than the others for me.

No objection to Pr. Others?



FYI, other P’s:

PhilW wrote: ↑13:51 Tue 28 May 2013 Ps = Quinta do Passadouro
PA = Quinta da Pedra Alta
Pg = Quinta do Pego
Pi = Pintas
Pç = Poças
Pt = Quinta do Portal
Pt+ = Quinta do Portal+
PtM = Portal Quinta dos Muros

Pr seems appropriate.

Works for me.

While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑06:36 Sun 23 Apr 2023While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.

No objection.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:12 Sun 23 Apr 2023

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑06:36 Sun 23 Apr 2023While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.

No objection.

Fine by me also. FYI, the VPID includes photos of 75, 80, 82 and 90 for Petre's brand, while the tasting note index has notes for 90, 94 and 95. So at least six vintages in total, more than enough to justify its own abbreviation.

Alex Bridgeman wrote:While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.

Works for me.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑22:59 Wed 26 Aug 2020We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑22:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.

Three years ago we discussed Mourão ≈ São Leonardo, but failed to conclude. Using Mr for Mourão was unpopular. So should it be SL = São Leonardo for both?

I say yes: SL for São Leonardo and for Mourão. Objections? (Objections must be accompanied by a better suggestion.)

Quinta do Mourão has two brands: São Leonardo and Rio Bom. Miguel told me that they are the same wine but branded for different markets. I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels because... and it's only a vague memory... I think I was told that they do not own the rights to that brand much like Quinta do Silval does not own the rights to "Silval" on a label (Noval does).

Which is a long way of saying that I do not think that QM or Mr is appropriate, but also that SL should potentially only serve for SL-branded bottles. The other bottles should theoretically be RB.

Note that the precedent set by Dalva and Presidential does not seem applicable to me, as Dalva is the actual name of the company and Presidential simply a rebrand for North America. In this case both are brands only.

(Kopke and Porto Rocha is no longer an appropriate example, because though PR was originally re-launched for the NA market it now seems to be available in other markets and is more accurately a sister brand to Kopke rather than a market-specific re-brand like Dalva and Presidential.)

So... Yes for SL. I remain open to the idea of RB being treated as a rebrand of SL, but currently think it should be its own abbreviation.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑00:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels

https://www.portugalvineyards.com/pt/do ... 50368.html

jdaw1 wrote:

jdaw1 wrote: ↑22:59 Wed 26 Aug 2020We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑22:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.

Three years ago we discussed Mourão ≈ São Leonardo, but failed to conclude. Using Mr for Mourão was unpopular. So should it be SL = São Leonardo for both?

I say yes: SL for São Leonardo and for Mourão. Objections? (Objections must be accompanied by a better suggestion.)

I have only seen San Leonardo branding on their ports, both tawnies/Colheitas/white and vintage; so yes agree, SL.

Note that QdMourao has recently been sold, so we will have to wait and see what branding is used in future by the new owners.

MigSU wrote: ↑12:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023

Glenn E. wrote: ↑00:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels

https://www.portugalvineyards.com/pt/do ... 50368.html

Point taken. Though I was talking about Port, I wasn't aware that they used "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any table wine either.

SL = São Leonardo

has been added to the first post.

Dm = Dolamore?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:44 Fri 08 Sep 2023 First post has images of the current draft of the placemats.

Dm chosen as the abbreviation for Dolamore, as it was in October 2013 (second session, page 2, top). NB: Dl = Dalva; DM = Quinta Dona Matilde.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑08:41 Sat 09 Sep 2023 Dm = Dolamore?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:44 Fri 08 Sep 2023 First post has images of the current draft of the placemats.

Dm chosen as the abbreviation for Dolamore, as it was in October 2013 (second session, page 2, top). NB: Dl = Dalva; DM = Quinta Dona Matilde.

Ick. While allowed, having both DM and Dm seems ripe to cause confusion.

Perhaps Do for Dolomore?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑03:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023Perhaps Do for Dolomore?

Too much like Dow.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑03:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023

jdaw1 wrote: ↑08:41 Sat 09 Sep 2023 Dm = Dolamore?

Ick. While allowed, having both DM and Dm seems ripe to cause confusion.

Perhaps Do for Dolomore?

I'm less worried about Dm vs DM. We already have similarly VZ (Van Zeller) vs Vz (Quinta de Ventozelo), and I suspect there will be others.
Admittedly I've started pre-pending with"q" for the brands which are purely "Quinta de/da/do/dos/de la", which while not accepted here (for fairly judged brevity reasoning as much as anything else) does also help with these particular cases (Dm vs qDM, and VZ vs qVz).
I don't mind Do, but prefer Dm, for Dolamore.

Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Mon 11 Sep 2023 Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.

While I do still prefer Do, this reasoning suffices for me.

Dm added to official list.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑03:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023Perhaps Do for Dolomore?

Also, Dolamore

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Mon 11 Sep 2023 Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.

No good question should go unanswered; to the best of my knowledge:
- Dm : Dolamore BOB vintage port from 1966..1982
- BrDM : Barros Quinta Dona Matilde (single quinta) vintage port from 1982..2002
- (q)DM : Quinta Dona Matilde vintage port from 2007..present
and just to throw an anomaly in, since this is vintage port we're talking about, the Sainsbury BOB 1985 vintage port says on the label that it is Quinta Dona Matilde (with Barros only mentioned in small writing).
Anyway, I think we're good.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑00:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 Quinta do Mourão has two brands: São Leonardo and Rio Bom. Miguel told me that they are the same wine but branded for different markets. I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels because... and it's only a vague memory... I think I was told that they do not own the rights to that brand much like Quinta do Silval does not own the rights to "Silval" on a label (Noval does).

Which is a long way of saying that I do not think that QM or Mr is appropriate, but also that SL should potentially only serve for SL-branded bottles. The other bottles should theoretically be RB.

Would be nice to make a decision on this for an upcoming tasting in.... 5 days. I personally think Mo is suitable. Julian, apologies for not following the first rule of making placemats.

akzy wrote: Would be nice to make a decision on this for an upcoming tasting in.... 5 days. I personally think Mo is suitable. Julian, apologies for not following the first rule of making placemats.

I believe we did, and you're looking for SL30yt for your San Leonardo 30 year tawny from Quinta do Mourao.

Reading back this makes sense. Thanks Phil.

First post says:

SL = São Leonardo

For the Young Turks tasting, more abbreviations are needed. Please comment on the following.

Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).

Gv, for Quinta da Gaivosa?

Tc, for Tecedeiras?

SO, for Quinta Seara D’Ordens?

Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024 For the Young Turks tasting, more abbreviations are needed. Please comment on the following.

Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).

Gv, for Quinta da Gaivosa?

Tc, for Tecedeiras?

SO, for Quinta Seara D’Ordens?

Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).

Referencing earlier discussion, we have previously only assigned permanent abbreviations for brands which have released vintage ports for ~3 vintages or more; do these meet that criteria? is that criteria still reasonable?

PhilW wrote: ↑07:45 Thu 16 May 2024Referencing earlier discussion, we have previously only assigned permanent abbreviations for brands which have released vintage ports for ~3 vintages or more; do these meet that criteria? is that criteria still reasonable?

Very reasonable. And I had forgotten that.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).

Website has multiple tawnies, two LBVs, and zero VPs. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation. But anyway, I’m changing my mind for this temporary abbreviation to Pa.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Gv, for Quinta da Gaivosa?

No website; internet knows of VPs 2015 and 2017. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Tc, for Tecedeiras?

Website knows of Vintages 2016 and 2017 with other online evidence of a 2008, and LBVs 2014 and 2015. Also, unlike the table wine, it is “Quinta das Tecedeiras”. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Tc?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024SO, for Quinta Seara D’Ordens?

Website has VPs from every year 2013–2021. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. SO?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).

Website has VPs 2014, ’16, ’17, ’18. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Po?