ThePortForum.com

Posted: **22:45 Tue 02 Aug 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:…
CrR = Croft Quinta da Roêda
…
KL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
…
MsC = Messias Quinta do Cachão

You are all ganging up on me. It’s a conspiracy.

My lawyer says that I should take the plea-bargain. He’s in the conspiracy too.

Posted: **07:53 Wed 03 Aug 2016**

Should we vote on whether Luiz deserves to lose his sainthood?

Posted: **09:57 Wed 03 Aug 2016**

PhilW wrote:Should we vote on whether Luiz deserves to lose his sainthood?

No. I have given a whole class of concessions. KL.

CR versus CrR:

First so much more elegant.

Posted: **11:38 Wed 03 Aug 2016**

I think the above is a good demonstration of the advantage of brevity from a visual perspective; I am partly persuaded that it would be worth attempting to keep the complete abbreviation to three letters where possible, though I would still prefer to keep the original house abbreviation intact. This does mean I feel slightly more favourable towards ChA and TVV than previously, as alternative to the four letter versions.

Posted: **12:57 Wed 03 Aug 2016**

PhilW wrote:I think the above is a good demonstration of the advantage of brevity from a visual perspective; I am partly persuaded that it would be worth attempting to keep the complete abbreviation to three letters where possible

Three better than four; two better than three.

Posted: **12:59 Wed 03 Aug 2016**

I believe both can be improved visually by a small gap between central and circular text (mitigating, not negating the point).

Posted: **13:02 Wed 03 Aug 2016**

PhilW wrote:I believe both can be improved visually by a small gap between central and circular text (mitigating, not negating the point).

Actually, reducing the amount of space available.

My hope is to persuade people that brevity is an important desideratum.

Posted: **15:35 Wed 03 Aug 2016**

While I agree that brevity is important, I strongly feel that clarity is more important.

Also, placemats should not be the driving factor behind this decision.

Willing to concede KL, though I do feel that KSL is much more correct. No one refers to the quinta as "Luis".

Posted: **18:52 Wed 03 Aug 2016**

Glenn E. wrote:Also, placemats should not be the driving factor behind this decision.

It is the main purpose of the abbreviations. Willing to consider the problem more generally, but ignoring the main purpose seems wrong.

Posted: **03:41 Fri 05 Aug 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:Also, placemats should not be the driving factor behind this decision.
It is the main purpose of the abbreviations. Willing to consider the problem more generally, but ignoring the main purpose seems wrong.

I thought it was to make it easier to refer to things like the 2009 Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo Late Bottled Vintage Port during internet discussions amongst geeks. Even less extreme examples such as F85 are much simpler and easier to write.

Placemats may have been the original purpose, but it seems to me at this point that common and recognizable abbreviations on internet forums (and in books!) is more important.

Posted: **08:02 Fri 05 Aug 2016**

Glenn E. wrote:I thought it was to make it easier to refer to things like the 2009 Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo Late Bottled Vintage Port during internet discussions amongst geeks. Even less extreme examples such as F85 are much simpler and easier to write.

Placemats may have been the original purpose, but it seems to me at this point that common and recognizable abbreviations on internet forums (and in books!) is more important.

Which still says that one of the purposes, for a significant proportion even if not the same proportion for everybody, requires brevity.

Posted: **19:00 Fri 05 Aug 2016**

Sogrape themselves don’t think São sufficiently important to be written in full:

Sogrape wrote:S. Luiz Vineyard

Quinta S. Luiz is situated …. Today, Quinta de S. Luiz cover 125 hectares of total area, which 90 hectares have, vineyards. The planting of the vineyards in the Quinta de S. Luiz has always been done using ….

*CURIOSITY Quinta S. Luiz was owned by C.N. Kopke & Cª in 1922…

KL.

Posted: **21:15 Fri 05 Aug 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:Sogrape themselves don’t think São sufficiently important to be written in full:
Sogrape wrote:S. Luiz Vineyard

Quinta S. Luiz is situated …. Today, Quinta de S. Luiz cover 125 hectares of total area, which 90 hectares have, vineyards. The planting of the vineyards in the Quinta de S. Luiz has always been done using ….

*CURIOSITY Quinta S. Luiz was owned by C.N. Kopke & Cª in 1922…
KL.

I rarely see "saint" written out in full, either. Inconclusive - it's simply a commonly abbreviated word.

Wait, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, abbreviations...

Posted: **20:26 Sun 28 Aug 2016**

Catching up on things which were discussed while I was on holiday, I've just read through this thread.

Am I too late to join in? Is the list on page 2 the current final version of the list? Do we need to discuss further the abbreviations for Noval Silval, Noval Quinta do Silval, Quinta do Noval Quinto do Silval?

Also, I would observe that the most frequent use of the abbreviations is not on placemats, but in the discussion threads on this board when clarity is much more important that brevity. In the past I have agreed to swap bottles with a fellow port lover but received Feuerheerd port instead of the Ferreira port I had expected! (Although, for the sake of the feelings of the person concerned, I want to stress that I was actually delighted to receive the Feuerheerd port as it was something I had not tried very often before and had never owned.)

Posted: **21:17 Sun 28 Aug 2016**

AHB wrote:Am I too late to join in?

No. Not final until book at publisher.

AHB wrote:Is the list on page 2 the current final version of the list?

It doesn’t have to be.

AHB wrote:Do we need to discuss further the abbreviations for Noval Silval, Noval Quinta do Silval, Quinta do Noval Quinto do Silval?

{Sigh} Perhaps.

AHB wrote:Also, I would observe that the most frequent use of the abbreviations is not on placemats, but in the discussion threads on this board when clarity is much more important that brevity. In the past I have agreed to swap bottles with a fellow port lover but received Feuerheerd port instead of the Ferreira port I had expected! (Although, for the sake of the feelings of the person concerned, I want to stress that I was actually delighted to receive the Feuerheerd port as it was something I had not tried very often before and had never owned.)

Feuerheerd = Fd. Hard to confuse. Concise (me happy) and unambiguous. Ferreira, with three r’s, is Fr. If clarity so much more important than brevity, one could use ‘abbreviations’ of “Feuerheerd” and “Ferreira”: not concise, but unlikely to be confused.

Posted: **21:24 Mon 29 Aug 2016**

For me, the abbreviations must be (in order of importance):
Consistently used
Intuitive and unambiguous
Brief

I like Fd, Fr but not Fe. Feist could be Ft, which would be unambiguous.

I like D for Dow. DB works as Bomfim but causes confusion when used close to DG. I would prefer single letter shippers to have double letter Quinta abbreviations. Thus you would have DBo, DSR and these would be distinct from DG. To be consistent you could run this further and have GMa, GST, WCa, VCp etc.

Posted: **21:38 Mon 29 Aug 2016**

AHB wrote:For me, the abbreviations must be (in order of importance):
Consistently used
Intuitive and unambiguous
Brief

For me, approximately equally weighted.

AHB wrote:I like Fd, Fr but not Fe. Feist could be Ft, which would be unambiguous.

As I say ‘Feist’, the ‘s’ is stronger than the ‘t’. Would you object to ‘Fs’ — which cannot be confused with Feuerheerd, nor with Ferreira?

AHB wrote:I like D for Dow. DB works as Bomfim but causes confusion when used close to DG. I would prefer single letter shippers to have double letter Quinta abbreviations. Thus you would have DBo, DSR and these would be distinct from DG. To be consistent you could run this further and have GMa, GST, WCa, VCp etc.

Brevity important for me. ‘GM’ = Malvedos. ‘GST’ acceptable for the — alas rare — Stone Terraces. Cavadinha = WC; Capela = VC. Brevity important.

Posted: **21:43 Mon 29 Aug 2016**

List in first post of this thread.

Posted: **13:20 Tue 30 Aug 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:Updated list:

List looks good to me.

Posted: **23:03 Tue 30 Aug 2016**

Two added:
SJ = A Pinto dos Santos Júnior
Ud = O-Port-Unidade (precedent)

Posted: **22:49 Wed 31 Aug 2016**

PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Updated list:
List looks good to me.

And me.

Do we need an 'E' to fill out the alphabet?

: 2014-08-23 14.56.51.jpg (106.75 KiB) Viewed 33023 times

I was backing up pictures and ran across several from my 50th birthday party. This was the cake. Everything above the silver-wrapped serving board is edible.

Posted: **19:55 Sat 03 Sep 2016**

What about Real Vinicola?

(I'm happy with the proposed Fs for Feist.)

Posted: **14:25 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

AHB wrote:What about Real Vinicola?

= RO?

Posted: **18:41 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

No, a different brand owned by the same company. The same only in the sense that Gould Campbell and Quarles Harris are the same. While the same wine could be used for the different labels, it was also equally possible that different juice was used.

Posted: **19:18 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

RVi? RVc? Pee? RVo?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Posted: **19:32 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

What is the rule for a single letter abbreviation to be used for a shipper? Why no single letter abbreviation for shippers beginning with M?

Posted: **19:33 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:RVi? RVc? Pee? RVo?

RVi works for me

Posted: **19:40 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

AHB wrote:What is the rule for a single letter abbreviation to be used for a shipper? Why no single letter abbreviation for shippers beginning with M?

Shippers are not equal. Taylor is a more important shipper that Tedo. As Taylor is the only ‘T’ with this property, Taylor gets a single letter. Likewise, Sandeman and Skeffington; Graham and Guedes; Fonseca and Feuerheerd; Dow and Dalva.

There are no important M shippers. None get the single-letter privilege.

The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.

Posted: **19:43 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

List in first post of this thread.

Posted: **21:19 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.

Burmester is historically more important to shippers beginning with B than Martinez is to shippers beginning with M. Discuss. (100 marks available.)

Posted: **21:21 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

AHB wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.
Burmester is historically more important to shippers beginning with B than Martinez is to shippers beginning with M. Discuss. (100 marks available.)

That’s fair. Martinez = M?

Posted: **22:03 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

Martinez = M has better brevity than Burmester = Bu.

Works for me.

Posted: **22:34 Sun 04 Sep 2016**

It’s a substantial change of years-long practice. It needs more of a consensus than AHB enthusiasm and JDAW reluctant acceptance of change in a changing world. Others?

Posted: **17:29 Mon 05 Sep 2016**

I am mostly ambivalent, but happy to accept our new M=Martinez overlords.

Posted: **17:30 Mon 05 Sep 2016**

Why not RV for Real Vinicola?

Posted: **17:32 Mon 05 Sep 2016**

Glenn E. wrote:Why not RV for Real Vinicola?

jdaw1 wrote:RV = Rebello Valente

Posted: **18:18 Mon 05 Sep 2016**

I'm less convinced by the idea of complete overhaul. I would stay with Mz, for example. For Real Vinicola while I'm OK with RVi, I would suggest an alternative not proposed of RVn, on the basis that we seem to have mostly select next/later consonant rather than vowels to date.

Posted: **18:34 Mon 05 Sep 2016**

Martinez: Alex wants change. Glenn and I tolerate it. Phil opposes.

RVn: opinions?

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Posted: **20:45 Mon 05 Sep 2016**

Any objection to Ps = Quinta do Passadouro (whether or not made by Niepoort)?

Posted: **22:11 Mon 05 Sep 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:Martinez: Alex wants change. Glenn and I tolerate it. Phil opposes.

RVn: opinions?

I'm with Phil on the Martinez point. Just because M is free doesn't mean it must be used. When I read Mz I immediately recognise which shipper is being referenced. If I read M, I would need to think about it for a moment.

Posted: **03:55 Tue 06 Sep 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:Any objection to Ps = Quinta do Passadouro (whether or not made by Niepoort)?

My familiarity with Passadouro ends basically with the name.

If it produced Port on its own, then Ps seems fine.

But when produced by Niepoort, it should be NiPs for those vintages.

I don't think Ps should be used for both.

Posted: **04:00 Tue 06 Sep 2016**

PhilW wrote:I'm less convinced by the idea of complete overhaul. I would stay with Mz, for example. For Real Vinicola while I'm OK with RVi, I would suggest an alternative not proposed of RVn, on the basis that we seem to have mostly select next/later consonant rather than vowels to date.

I do understand the desire to keep what works, and am fine with Mz. I'm really only in favor of breaking with tradition when doing so provides additional clarity or better standardization. Mz -> M really does neither.

RVi and RVn are equally fine to me now that I've been reminded of RV.

Posted: **08:33 Tue 06 Sep 2016**

I'm happy with RVn, Ps and the continued use of Mz (the latter being intuitive) but would then prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.

I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.

Posted: **08:42 Tue 06 Sep 2016**

AHB wrote:I'm happy with RVn, Ps and the continued use of Mz (the latter being intuitive)

RVn: decided. Ps: decided. Mz: unchanged (good).

AHB wrote:I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.

Was Passadouro part of Niepoort’s full-declaration blends? If so, I could support NiP.

Should pre-Symington Vesuvio be differently abbreviated to Symington Vesuvio? If not, can the wine made from Quinta do Passadouro grapes be called Quinta do Passadouro = Ps, irrespective of whether the people around the lagares were employees of Ferreira / Symington / Graham / Niepoort?

AHB wrote:prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.

B or Bu: Other opinions?

Posted: **13:21 Tue 06 Sep 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:
AHB wrote:I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.
Was Passadouro part of Niepoort’s full-declaration blends? If so, I could support NiP.

Although I can see the argument to keep the abbreviation the same in both cases (hence Ps and NiPs), I appreciate the argument for brevity so am also ok with Ps and NiP.

jdaw1 wrote:Should pre-Symington Vesuvio be differently abbreviated to Symington Vesuvio? If not, can the wine made from Quinta do Passadouro grapes be called Quinta do Passadouro = Ps, irrespective of whether the people around the lagares were employees of Ferreira / Symington / Graham / Niepoort?

Although there are a number of options for this, I would suggest that the way the wine is presented on the label is the key for our use. There are essentially three cases:
1. Where the wine is independently released by the quinta, e.g. Quinta do Infantando
2. Where the wine is released and is presented as from the Quinta, even though owned by a major house, e.g. Quinta do Vesuvio; where the maker is mentioned on the label, but not as highly promonent.
3. Where the wine is released and is presented as from the House and Quinta, e.g. Warre Quinta da Cavadinha or Croft da Roeda

Currently, whether intentional or not, we have mostly followed the labels, thus I, V and WC. I would suggest sticking to that premise, unless good reason to do otherwise. The same applies to brands from houses, such as "F. Martins" which is a brand of vintage port made by Hutcheson, for which I would expect the abbreviation to be FM, rather than HFM, and the same for BoBs.

To answer your question re:Passadouro directly, given the currently label I would expect Ps; if Niepoort had previously owned/received grapes from this Quinta and created a single Quinta wine with it, then if they presented it as "Quinta do Passadouro" with "created and bottled by Niepoort" I would go with Ps; if they presented it as "Niepoort's Quinta do Passadouro" (all in similar size font) then it would be NiP/NiPs.

Posted: **13:27 Tue 06 Sep 2016**

jdaw1 wrote:
AHB wrote:prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.
B or Bu: Other opinions?

Happy with either.

BTW, I don't believe that there is any difference between Offley (O) and Offley Boa Vista (OBV), except that some labellers have shortened Offley Boa Vista to Offley on their labels.

Posted: **13:28 Tue 06 Sep 2016**

Posted: **00:46 Wed 07 Sep 2016**

Based on those labels, I'd say Ps. All of those seem to fall under Phil's option #2. (All 5 pictures on WineSearcher do as well, at least one of which overlaps with these.)

Posted: **00:09 Thu 08 Sep 2016**

PhilW wrote:BTW, I don't believe that there is any difference between Offley (O) and Offley Boa Vista (OBV), except that some labellers have shortened Offley Boa Vista to Offley on their labels.

This is incorrect. One vintage from the 1980s exists where two wines were produced from the same vintage ("Offley" and "Offley Boa Vista"), both using grapes from the Quinta.

Posted: **12:15 Fri 09 Sep 2016**

I see we have settled on Mz with which I concur. I would prefer B for Burmester but more ambivalent on this one. I note we don't seem to have covered Quinta do Vallado? Have had some lovely aged tawnies from the producer (although they have produced some VPs).

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