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Added to the Seckfords stash yesterday for the extortionate sum of £125 IB...
Will be extracted sooner rather than later for current drinking.

Please sir, where?

djewesbury wrote:Please sir, where?

Seckfords. They only had one case.

Street Wines are selling the same wine at £19 per bottle including duty and VAT, so £5 per bottle more than I paid.

Another case for the retirement stock: Chateau Batailley 1998 - purchase in an online auction for the equivalent of £280 IB

This morning I received the 2013 claret offer from the wine society who are usually the last to report in. Not having tasted any but having looked at the offers and read them from the right hand column to the left I can thoroughly recommend them as a really good laugh. And next year I can taste them and they will be cheaper.

The discounting has already started...

I promised some recommendations for value Bordeaux. All of these are wines that I have enjoyed in the past, which are worthy of at least 10 years in the cellar and will reward longer cellaring:

Medoc
Château de By
Château La Cardonne
Château Greysac (particularly recommended)
Château Livran
Château Loudenne (above average)
Château Potensac (needs londer in the cellar)
Château Sigognac
Château La Tour de By

Haut Medoc
Château La Lagune (expensive)
Château Belgrave
Château Cantemerle (one I particularly like)
Château Caronne Ste-Gemme
Château Cissac (one I personally avoid having never enjoyed a wine from them in the eighties, but they might have improved since then)
Château Coufran
Château Lanessan
Château Liversan
Château Sénéjac
Château Sociando-Mallet (highly recommended)

Margaux
Château Margaux (hey, you can afford to aim high...)
Château Rauzan-Ségla
Château Durfort-Vivens
Château Lascombes
Château Brane-Cantenac
Château Kirwan
Château d'Issan
Château Giscours
Château Malescot St. Exupéry (often good value)
Château Cantenac-Brown
Château Boyd-Cantenac
Château Palmer (but usually horribly expensive)
Château Pouget
Château Prieuré-Lichine (highly recommended)
Château Dauzac
Château Monbrison
Château Siran (strong recommendation)
Château Labégorce-Zédé (very strong recommendation)
Château La Tour de Mons
Château La Gurgue
Château Labégorce
Château d'Angludet (very strong recommendation - one of my favourite wines for everyday drinking when not drinking port)

Saint Julien
Most producers from this appelation are very good, but expensive so this list below only includes those I would normally expect to see represent good value
Château Ducru-Beaucaillou
Château Léoville-Poyferré
Château Langoa-Barton
Château Beychevelle
Château Saint-Pierre
Château Talbot (expensive, but my favourite producer from the region)
Château Gloria

Saint Estephe
Although you've not named any wines you've liked in the past from this appelation, try:
Château Phélan Ségur
Château Les Ormes de Pez
Château Haut-Marbuzet
to see if you like the style

Pauillac
Tends to be expensive from association with Latour, Lafite and Mouton, but try:
Château Duhart-Milon
Château Pontet-Canet
Château Batailley
Château d'Armailhac (previously known as Mouton Baronne Philippe)
Château Haut-Bages-Libéral
Château Clerc-Milon
Château Pibran

Moulis en Medoc
Château Chasse-Spleen
Château Poujeaux
Château Maucaillou
Moulin à Vent

I also enjoy wines from Fronsac, Canon-Fronsac, Entre-Deux-Mers, Bourg et Blaye but don't drink enough from these regions to really make any recommendation.

Wow!

I will ask Santa for a case of each

Thank you.

DRT wrote:Wow!

I will ask Santa for a case of each

Thank you.

Is that one of each from each vintage of the last 25 years?

Seriously, I do recommend buying a range of vintages and not to buy lots from recent vintages. There are plenty of sources of overall vintage quality, but I would suggest:
Top
2010, 2009, 2005, 2000, 1996, 1990, 1989, 1986, 1982
Try before you buy - has a relatively poor reputation so may represent good value for money if you like the style
2013, 2007, 2004, 2002, 1999, 1997, 1994, 1993, 1992, 1991, 1987, 1984, 1983, 1981, 1980

This thread should be printed on a card that one can carry in one's wallet.

Do you have any recommendations for 2013? As it is for my youngest, I would need something that will last at least 20-25 years. For the oldest I bought Sociando Mallet (2010) but it appears that 2013 is a difficult year...

Any recommendation from other regions is welcome as well. Budget 20-30€ per bottle.




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smisse wrote:Do you have any recommendations for 2013? Any recommendation from other regions is welcome as well. Budget 20-30€

My recommendation would be to avoid 2013 bordeaux like a plague of rabid dogs.

I hear they made some decent port in 2011 and that should have been bottled in 2013, so it will have 2013 on the label somewhere.

djewesbury wrote:This thread should be printed on a card that one can carry in one's wallet.

This is indeed a very helpful thread.
Perhaps we could start a "Burgundy Recommendations" thread as well ????

My only recommendation for Burgundy is that it is so confusing that it should be left to the experts!

AW77 wrote:

djewesbury wrote:This thread should be printed on a card that one can carry in one's wallet.

This is indeed a very helpful thread.
Perhaps we could start a "Burgundy Recommendations" thread as well ????

Too much of a minefield I fancy. I tried (while intoxicated) and Derek was keen (while intoxicated?). Wiser counsels prevailed in the morning. Lord Flashman hinted at some familiarity with the topic...

DRT wrote:

LGTrotter wrote:Cos they're awful. *ducks*

Agreed. *ducks even lower*

If I want 15% fruit-bomb beasts I can buy Auzzie stuff for £7-£10. If I want finesse I can buy French. I don't need tannic monsters from the Douro that need 30 years in bottle that are as weak as 14-15% - that is what Port is for.

I've waited till now to say it but I think you are missing out on some good things. Not all Douro wines are so massive and chewy and fearsome. The Pombal de Vesuvio is fine, well-balanced stuff.

djewesbury wrote:

DRT wrote:

LGTrotter wrote:Cos they're awful. *ducks*

Agreed. *ducks even lower*

If I want 15% fruit-bomb beasts I can buy Auzzie stuff for £7-£10. If I want finesse I can buy French. I don't need tannic monsters from the Douro that need 30 years in bottle that are as weak as 14-15% - that is what Port is for.

I've waited till now to say it but I think you are missing out on some good things. Not all Douro wines are so massive and chewy and fearsome. The Pombal de Vesuvio is fine, well-balanced stuff.

But it still needs two decades in the cellar. I don't disagree that there are nice DOC wines coming from the Douro, but when I drink them I always find myself wondering whether or not they would have been even better with a large dash of brandy going in at the time they were fermented.

I have extracted the full list of Derek's recent purchases, as well as Owen and Alex's recommendations, and saved them all in one new note accessible on my iPhone. I am hoping that with time and money I can grow this into something approximating Flash's port spreadsheet.

djewesbury wrote:I have extracted the full list of Derek's recent purchases, as well as Owen and Alex's recommendations, and saved them all in one new note accessible on my iPhone. I am hoping that with time and money I can grow this into something approximating Flash's port spreadsheet.

Perhaps someone could write a book detailing evidence of every Claret produced in every vintage from the beginning of Claret, with evidence?

Yes that would be a worthwhile and not at all Sisyphean task. Perhaps start with something simpler though, like every port vintage ever declared.

Has anyone drunk Chapelle de Potensac? Does it fall into Owen's category of bad value cheap Bordeaux or is it a worthy second wine? A good daily drinker? The oldest seems to be 02 but perhaps it doesn't need much ageing?

djewesbury wrote:Has anyone drunk Chapelle de Potensac? Does it fall into Owen's category of bad value cheap Bordeaux or is it a worthy second wine? A good daily drinker? The oldest seems to be 02 but perhaps it doesn't need much ageing?

No, but I would counsel caution, 02 is overall the worst vintage of the 2000 to 2010 decade (for my money), I am assuming this is the second wine of Potensac which for all the kindly reviews from Broadbent (I forget who this used to be owned by, the Prince de Polgniac or some such, Broadbent always was a sucker for royalty, bit of a staunch republican myself) I was uninspired and that was the main wine from better years than 02. I think it got sold to some conglomerate in the early noughties, I seem to have heard it had a bit of a wobble around this time.
I think if you consult my card you will see I suggest second wines in good years. If you look on the reverse of your now laminated card you will see even Alex urges caution and a taste for lesser vintages.

Perhaps I should nail my colours to the mast. I dislike and do not recommend second (or even third) label wines where these are trading on the name of the main label. Either they are too expensive (first growths) or they are disappointing in terms of quality.

If you are after a bargain you need to find the declassified wines. I recommend the Wine Society's Exhibtion Pauillac.

AHB wrote:Perhaps I should nail my colours to the mast. I dislike and do not recommend second (or even third) label wines where these are trading on the name of the main label. Either they are too expensive (first growths) or they are disappointing in terms of quality.

I read somewhere that there is a distinct difference between a "second wine" and a "second label" in that the former is made from the worst grapes of the premium lots and the latter is a wine made from lots that are not used in the premier cru. Is that true?

I can see why a "second wine" might not be too appealing, particularly in non-classic vintages.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a definitive source that separates these two types of wine into different lists.

The wine that Daniel enquired about is a "second wine". Stephen Brook (Parker's nemesis) describes the premier cru from that estate thus: "the run of vintages from 200-2005 is uniformly excellent: big, ripe wines with swagger and broad shoulders; not exactly elegant, but lush and concentrated and powerful. The 2006 is lighter".

At £11 I think a bottle of the second wine is worth a punt just in case it bucks the trend of mediocrity.

I am all in favour of trying before you buy. At £11 per bottle it is worth trying a bottle before buying.

But I really can't make it more obvious why I have persistently recommended the Wine Society's Exhibition Pauillac...

(Not quoting because too fiddly to do on my iPhone)

Owen: It is owned by the conglomerate who own Léoville-Las Cases..

Alex: I will follow up the Wine Society Pauillac. I get that it may be made by a certain grower we've been discussing.

Derek: I will also follow up this bottle. As you say, at this price it's immoral not to. And I am keen to know the difference between second wines and second labels. I have not seen the Clos du Marquis yet I see the Croix de Beaucaillou is universally well-regarded.

I just picked-up 3 bottles of Leoville Barton 1967 for £45 each in an auction. The only other bottle I could find was a magnum at $600

Yes, I know, 2002 was probably the worst vintage since 1967, but how bad can a 2nd Growth be?

Where do I begin?

Alex's rebuff of second wines I would broadly agree with. But for some beautifully correct Clos du Maquis 96 which I have now finished and the stunning Criox de Beaucaillou 09, which I do not think will make old bones but who cares? Drink it now until it's ten and it will serve you well. I last bought it for just over £20 in a shop. I also have a soft spot for the Carruades de Lafite which I flogged half a dozen of to Farr and bought half a dozen early landed cognac, a case of port, two cases of classed growth claret and Emma got a tour of Baths finest haberdasheries courtesy of yours truly's credit card. So Alex I would say to you; keep an open mind. And Daniel; it is a twinning of two souls that you happened to mention the two second wines I was thinking of.

Derek; STOP. Just stop. Don't spend any more of your lovingly garnered cash on claret until you have a clear grasp of what you are about. I don't care if you decide Alex or me or Robert Parker is most right about claret, find what you like then buy it. It isn't crazy expensive at the level you are talking about and it is worth drinking some older good vintages to see what you like. I would even urge you to get a good vintage of a few poshish classed growths, that may be your bag. But I am not sure that your random fronsac and appalling 67 will ever tell you much about claret. But I bought loads of gloomy claret too. And maybe the Leoville will spring to life, but I'd give you odds that it won't.

Wine society wines are good and reliable. I find them a little too stodgy though, a faint whiff of the anti-macassar, the stifling part of being English.

And Daniel next time you are in Waitrose when they have got their 25% off, have a look and see if they have still got any of the 09 or 10 Cru bourgeois, or anywhere you see names you recognise, the wines are still reasonable.

I would question the merit of keeping most clarets beyond a dozen years at the levels being mentioned. Drinking them becomes reminiscent of eating a stick as they get old.

Is this a trap to keep me chained to the keyboard?

LGTrotter wrote:And Daniel; it is a twinning of two souls that you happened to mention the two second wines I was thinking of.

You see? Julian thinks he hasn't met you; but how does he know that I really exist?

LGTrotter wrote:Wine society wines are good and reliable. I find them a little too stodgy though, a faint whiff of the anti-macassar, the stifling part of being English.

I was once very pro-macassar. I was all for him during the revolution, but then those ridiculous sumptuary laws on the upholstering of armchairs made me think again.

LGTrotter wrote:And Daniel next time you are in Waitrose when they have got their 25% off, have a look and see if they have still got any of the 09 or 10 Cru bourgeois, or anywhere you see names you recognise, the wines are still reasonable.

Would that we had such luxurious emporia in Northern Ireland. Planning was turned down for a massive out-of-town John Lewis a few years ago and they walked off with their noses in the air. But when I am in London next I will look.

This is an exciting new quest. Thanks for your very helpful advice and insights.

Having re-read some of Derek's old posts I see that you do know what you like; oldish Batailley from good vintages. I think you liked the 89 which was a big sweet vintage like the 09, the 05 are similar. They will be fine in 15, 20 years time.

So maybe have a look at other Paulliac fifth growths, there are some belters. Peep next door and try a few more Saint Juliens. Maybe climb the ladder a bit, I do think it is worth getting decent vintages though, there are loads of them (10,09,08,05,01,00,96,95,90,89,88,85,you get the picture).

djewesbury wrote:Would that we had such luxurious emporia in Northern Ireland.

No 'trose? Blimey, no wonder it all gets so serious out there.

Alan Coren said; 'I like Sainsburys...keeps the riff-raff out of Waitrose.'

LGTrotter wrote:Having re-read some of Derek's old posts I see that you do know what you like; oldish Batailley from good vintages. I think you liked the 89 which was a big sweet vintage like the 09, the 05 are similar. They will be fine in 15, 20 years time.

So maybe have a look at other Paulliac fifth growths, there are some belters. Peep next door and try a few more Saint Juliens. Maybe climb the ladder a bit, I do think it is worth getting decent vintages though, there are loads of them (10,09,08,05,01,00,96,95,90,89,88,85,you get the picture).

Thank, you. That is where 90% of my claret budget is going, although I did sneak in some usual suspects from 2011 because they were too cheap to ignore and will serve as good cellar defenders to keep me off the 09s and 05s for a while longer.

The "random" stuff is exactly that. It is my way of dabbling in things I have never had before, even if I am knowingly stepping into dodgy territory. I did this when I bought a case of Chasse-Spleen and half a case of Gloria 1970 for £20-£25 per bottle. These turned out to be be fine drinking, albeit somewhat fragile if not consumed in a few hours, ant taught me that I am quite partial to a well-matured claret. The LB1967s are a step further into that territory. I shall report back. The random Forsac is an inexpensive punt on something semi-mature that I can drink now for £10 a bottle and see if I enjoy a different part of the region. Again, I will report back.

Please keep encouraging me to stay largely focussed on what is relatively safe, but don't stop the fun by telling me to stop experimenting otherwise you will not have the joy of seeing me type "WTF is this s*** all about?!?" in my extensive series of TNs.

PS: When I am feeling flush I will step up a gear and buy a mixed six of the good stuff, not the ridiculous stuff, the stuff you can get at around £100 a bottle.

DRT wrote:I just picked-up 3 bottles of Leoville Barton 1967 for £45 each in an auction. The only other bottle I could find was a magnum at $600

Yes, I know, 2002 was probably the worst vintage since 1967, but how bad can a 2nd Growth be?

Be careful! 1967 is not as bad as you believe; e.g. Pomerols can be fantastic like Borgoneuf. Leoville Barton should be still respectable. I admit though left bank might be difficult.

regards

WS1

LGTrotter wrote:Having re-read some of Derek's old posts I see that you do know what you like; oldish Batailley from good vintages. I think you liked the 89 which was a big sweet vintage like the 09, the 05 are similar. They will be fine in 15, 20 years time.

So maybe have a look at other Paulliac fifth growths, there are some belters. Peep next door and try a few more Saint Juliens. Maybe climb the ladder a bit, I do think it is worth getting decent vintages though, there are loads of them (10,09,08,05,01,00,96,95,90,89,88,85,you get the picture).

I would not consider 08 a decent vintage. It can be not bad but with exceptions it is not great either. 03 left bank e.g. Montrose, Latour, Cos etc. was fantastic which should have been included in here. Right bank was especially 98 and in parts 06 brilliant. 95 is not bad to good but also difficult due to rain in the autumn which can result in a a bit bitterness in the finish of the wines.
Also I recomend not buying any 10s; they need at least 20 years from know to come round.

regards

WS1

WS1 wrote:I would not consider 08 a decent vintage. It can be not bad but with exceptions it is not great either. 03 left bank e.g. Montrose, Latour, Cos etc. was fantastic which should have been included in here. Right bank was especially 98 and in parts 06 brilliant. 95 is not bad to good but also difficult due to rain in the autumn which can result in a a bit bitterness in the finish of the wines.

'Taste', as Oscar observed 'is a matter of taste'. I liked the 08, however I am someone who tends to read wine lists from right to left. I did wonder about including the 03s but decided, having moaned about them elsewhere to leave them out. It is the lack of consistency which makes me hesitate. I know nothing about right bank wines. The 95s seem to me to be a bit overlooked in favour of the 96s and for the most part they are comparable.

It's rather daring to back Derek's 67.

I should like to reiterate that my opinions are just that. It is very likely they are partial and judging from the contributions based on less experience than is available on this forum. I hope to have aroused some of you to put me straight and Derek on the path of wisdom.

Now, now, gents - stop squabbling about my '67s. At least one will be tasted in company to verify how stupid I have been, or otherwise.

Berrys' Good Ordinary Claret - £57 per dozen IB - how good is "Good"?

I'm looking forward to 1967, personally.

Oh Derek; I found this for your 67 horizontal, it's from Pomerol, bet it's a belter! *sniggers*

https://www.bidforwine.co.uk/auctions/show/63599

My apologies to WS1 for any offence given by this weak joke.

LGTrotter wrote:Oh Derek; I found this for your 67 horizontal, it's from Pomerol, bet it's a belter! *sniggers*

https://www.bidforwine.co.uk/auctions/show/63599

My apologies to WS1 for any offence given by this weak joke.

? joke? There is only one bt of 1967 in that lot or have my eyes decived me?



I guess you have not crawled through many cellars buying wine ......

I leave especially the 1987 stuff to you....

WS1 wrote:I guess you have not crawled through many cellars buying wine ...

I guess I crawl in the wrong circles...

WS1 wrote:There is only one bt of 1967 in that lot or have my eyes deceived me?

I thought it looked ideal for DRT, some random stuff.

I appreciate that the word 'joke' was a little overworked here. Thanks for the response, it made me smile.

LGTrotter wrote:

WS1 wrote:I guess you have not crawled through many cellars buying wine ...

I guess I crawl in the wrong circles...

WS1 wrote:There is only one bt of 1967 in that lot or have my eyes deceived me?

I thought it looked ideal for DRT, some random stuff.

I appreciate that the word 'joke' was a little overworked here. Thanks for the response, it made me smile.

All fine; but DRT needs not more random stuff, he actually need to streamline his efforts! Especially since he has a tendency to cases oft port go missing in his cellar ...

In the old days we called this "doing KillerB".

Let us be serious and do a Bordeaux tasting in London as some point and based on the wines taste we see what DRT needs. But wildly tasting Bordeaux is not a good idea. I did do this for the last 25 years and despite fun it is rather expensive

At least I know know what I like and this is old Port, Claret, Rhone and Burgundy which is still good.

WS1 wrote:DRT needs not more random stuff, he actually need to streamline his efforts!

His efforts to streamline himself are well documented elsewhere!

WS1 wrote:At least I know know what I like and this is old Port, Claret, Rhone and Burgundy which is still good.

+1, plus a little room for champagne? Oh to have the time, space and money. But as the poet says; 'for know, rash youth, that in this star crossed world fate drives us all to find our chiefest good in what we can, and not in what we would.'

WS1 wrote:
I leave especially the 1987 stuff to you....

I object! 1987 has a poor reputation but there are some decent wines if you know what you are doing. Talbot and Mouton are two examples of pretty decent wines - although last time I had either of these was 10 years ago and I don't know how well they will have lasted.

Further proof that there is always something to look for in every vintage. Talbot again, I may have to cruise BBX...

DRT wrote:Berrys' Good Ordinary Claret - £57 per dozen IB - how good is "Good"?

My question was either missed or did not deserve a response.

DRT wrote:

DRT wrote:Berrys' Good Ordinary Claret - £57 per dozen IB - how good is "Good"?

My question was either missed or did not deserve a response.

S'alright. But a quaffer not a keeper. If you want to drink something now I thought it was competent. But I seem to like my wines less well hung than some.

DRT wrote:

DRT wrote:Berrys' Good Ordinary Claret - £57 per dozen IB - how good is "Good"?

My question was either missed or did not deserve a response.

I'm not a huge fan. LGT's "S'alright." or CSD's "Meh" pretty much both sum up how I feel about it.

AHB wrote:

WS1 wrote:
I leave especially the 1987 stuff to you....

I object! 1987 has a poor reputation but there are some decent wines if you know what you are doing. Talbot and Mouton are two examples of pretty decent wines - although last time I had either of these was 10 years ago and I don't know how well they will have lasted.

Hmm, I was not a fan of Mouton at all. The only two Bordeaux from 1987 I liked were Palmer and Lynch Bages. I heard La Mission Brion should be also OK. But not tried. All Premier Crus I did not like at all! So I state as in the first thread

The 87s are yours!

regards
WS1

Sorry, Owen, I had submitted my bid before you told me to stop and am now the proud owner of these beauties...
Try as I might I cannot find any reference to this producer anywhere on the web or in my books but did find "Château Maine Gazin" (note spelling) from the same region selling at £83 for a case of their 2005.

What could go wrong?