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Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:03 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:altogether restored my joie de vivre, which was perhaps a little diminished
The undoing of that terrible diminishment is a joy to us all, and even more so with the addition of the hidden concession. Is a greater concession about to be added?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:09 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:altogether restored my joie de vivre, which was perhaps a little diminished
The undoing of that terrible diminishment is a joy to us all, and even more so with the addition of the hidden concession. Is a greater concession about to be added?
Well, even if I were not so minded, the revelation elsewhere that you are considering the use of heavier bullets has prompted me to re-examine my course of action.

Perhaps I may accept that "P's and Q's" does not represent an apostrophe crime, per se. But I can still feel proud to have instigated such an important, nay essential debate.

Shall we leave it at that? The Chicago Manual of Style is such a boring book...

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:16 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
Honour is satisfied: thank you.

But as you have clearly implied. just because a rule seemingly has been something, does not mean that it should always be so. Which nudges me towards a new rule.

You have falsely accused a chap of a non-trivial transgression, of heinous villainy, or a terrible atrocity, of an apostrophe crime. Surely there should be some penalty on those falsely making such grave accusations. I suggest a fine: at your next tasting, you should bring an extra bottle.

On balance, do you think that such a rule would be good public policy?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:19 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:Honour is satisfied: thank you.

But as you have clearly implied. just because a rule seemingly has been something, does not mean that it should always be so. Which nudges me towards a new rule.

You have falsely accused a chap of a non-trivial transgression, of heinous villainy, or a terrible atrocity, of an apostrophe crime. Surely there should be some penalty on those falsely making such grave accusations. I suggest a fine: at your next tasting, you should bring an extra bottle.

On balance, do you think that such a rule would be good public policy?
We have already established that the law cannot be applied retrospectively, have we? In that case, yes, it is self-evidently a Good Idea.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:27 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:yes, it is self-evidently a Good Idea.
Well, if you’re going to be so d sporting about it, then I’ll bring, to the next appropriate tasting attended by the two us, an extra bottle.

Which makes two extras: what’s not to like.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:10 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:yes, it is self-evidently a Good Idea.
Well, if you’re going to be so d sporting about it, then I’ll bring, to the next appropriate tasting attended by the two us, an extra bottle.

Which makes two extras: what’s not to like.
There's a chance you might have to post that, if as I fear I can't make the October tasting..

And you did remember this..?
djewesbury wrote:We have already established that the law cannot be applied retrospectively, have we?
Then again, I don't mind too much being made an example of. More port all round after all.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:11 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by DRT
jdaw1 wrote:I’ll bring, to the next appropriate tasting attended by the two us, an extra bottle.
Is it half a double mag of Sandeman Vau in two bottles?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:13 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
DRT wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:I’ll bring, to the next appropriate tasting attended by the two us, an extra bottle.
Is it half a double mag of Sandeman Vau in two bottles?
:lol:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 20:09 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:There's a chance you might have to post that, if as I fear I can't make the October tasting..
Then it can be a subsequent tasting: next time you and I are each bringing one bottle to a not-too-structured event attended by the two of us, we’re each bringing two. You as payment for defamation; me as acknowledgement of you being sporting.

No date has yet been fixed, though I do have a hunch of what port fine port from a fine vintage, sir I shall bring.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 20:24 Sun 22 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:There's a chance you might have to post that, if as I fear I can't make the October tasting..
Then it can be a subsequent tasting: next time you and I are each bringing one bottle to a not-too-structured event attended by the two of us, we’re each bringing two. You as payment for defamation; me as acknowledgement of you being sporting.

No date has yet been fixed, though I do have a hunch of what port fine port from a fine vintage, sir I shall bring.
Perhaps the 27th of November (my proposed near-birthday tasting)?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 04:46 Mon 23 Sep 2013
by Glenn E.
djewesbury wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:I do not think one would write GCSE's. Therefore, it is Ps. And, for that matter, Qs.
How would you write the plural of the first letter of the alphabet?
"More than one A."

I get the feeling that this situation is similar to prepositions, with which one should not end a sentence. The correct usage is at times awkward, so technically incorrect usage is occasionally accepted.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Who are you cheering on here? Stop sitting on the fence.
It is too difficult to write an explanatory post using my phone. So you must wait to find out.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:47 Mon 23 Sep 2013
by Glenn E.
Glenn E. wrote:
djewesbury wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:I do not think one would write GCSE's. Therefore, it is Ps. And, for that matter, Qs.
How would you write the plural of the first letter of the alphabet?
"More than one A."

I get the feeling that this situation is similar to prepositions, with which one should not end a sentence. The correct usage is at times awkward, so technically incorrect usage is occasionally accepted.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Who are you cheering on here? Stop sitting on the fence.
It is too difficult to write an explanatory post using my phone. So you must wait to find out.
What I meant by my previous post is that, in much the same way that slang words are often incorporated into the O.E.D. once they have become sufficiently ingrained in the language, grammar rules might also change to suit the common fancy.

My belief (entirely unsubstantiated) is that Ps and Qs is the technically correct usage, but that P's and Q's has become so commonplace that it is now considered acceptable.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 22:52 Mon 23 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
Allow me to grouch about another pet linguistic peeve of mine, use of which should be more than decimated.

Yes, that means to kill or destroy one tenth, but is colloquially used, not always with the emphatic ‟literally”, to mean destroy all or most of something.

Next up, listen to Professor Halliday (of Oxford, one of this sceptred isle’s better second-rank Universities), saying that ‟it was proposed that a Mars-sized body, about 10% of the mass of the Earth, ! hit the Earth when it was only 90% formed, !. The Earth would have been completely decimated”.

I’ll try to ignore the ‟completely” though have already failed. Instead let’s do arithmetic: 10% of mass of Earth arrives. Some debris falls back, some forms moon. The moon, of course, has a mass about 1.23% of the mass of the Earth. So Earth would have gained about 9% of its mass. In which context, please explain ‟completely decimated”.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 04:40 Tue 24 Sep 2013
by DRT
I share your pain on this one. I also have a problem with the concept of the earth being "90% formed". At what point did it become the planet that we now know as earth? Surely a body that is 90% of the mass of what we live on today is already a planet, albeit that it is in the early stages of its life cycle? Applying same theory to humans would mean that I was only 70% formed at 18 years old, which makes no sense.

The earth gathers mass constantly and will do so until it begins disintegrating as a result of the sun expanding into its orbit. At what point will it be "100% formed"?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 07:52 Tue 24 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
DRT wrote:I also have a problem with the concept of the earth being "90% formed".
This isn’t a problem for me. He could have said something like ‟having accreted to 90% of its terminal mass”, but that seems needlessly formal, especially in a radio interview.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:15 Tue 24 Sep 2013
by Glenn E.
DRT wrote:I share your pain on this one. I also have a problem with the concept of the earth being "90% formed".
While I share jdaw1's annoyance with the misuse of decimated, I don't have a problem with this statement. To me, "90% formed" does not necessarily refer to its mass, but to the state of existence that we think of as our world. "90% of the way to being capable of supporting life as we know it," for example.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 08:33 Wed 25 Sep 2013
by PhilW
DRT wrote:I share your pain on this one. I also have a problem with the concept of the earth being "90% formed".
Regarding "90% formed" I side with DRT; it might be acceptable in a very generic hand-waving way to express a concept, but it's so inaccurate without defining what you mean by formed in this context as to make it useless for most purposes, especially for a professor unless he is catering to an audience with no understanding of the topic and limited ability to understand the concept.

Regarding decimation, I have to admit to having just had my understanding corrected :oops: I was aware of both the formal "one-tenth" use, and the more colloquial use along the lines of "a dramatic reduction, almost wiping out"; however in my head, I had put the two together and confused the formal definition into "reducing to one-tenth" instead of "reducing by one-tenth"; Now I know better - thank you! :)

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 09:06 Wed 25 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
PhilW wrote:Regarding decimation, I have to admit to having just had my understanding corrected :oops: I was aware of both the formal "one-tenth" use, and the more colloquial use along the lines of "a dramatic reduction, almost wiping out"; however in my head, I had put the two together and confused the formal definition into "reducing to one-tenth" instead of "reducing by one-tenth"; Now I know better - thank you! :)
One crime prevented hurray!

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 10:18 Wed 25 Sep 2013
by PhilW
jdaw1 wrote:One crime prevented hurray!
Indeed; except that if I ever used decimate in the formal sense, I'd have to qualify it to ensure the person to whom I was speaking understood my intention.

Most of my use of the word decimate is within the context of signal processing, where the term is used differently again. For example you might "decimate by 5" or "decimate by a factor of five", which means selecting only every fifth sample from an original sequence of samples. I note that this definition while in very common use is barely covered by the brief OED definition:
Historically, the meaning of the word decimate is ‘kill one in every ten of (a group of people)’. This sense has been more or less totally superseded by the later, more general sense ‘kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of’, as in the virus has decimated the population. Some traditionalists argue that this is incorrect, but it is clear that it is now part of standard English.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:20 Wed 25 Sep 2013
by Glenn E.
jdaw1 wrote:in a radio interview.
PhilW wrote:especially for a professor unless he is catering to an audience with no understanding of the topic and limited ability to understand the concept.
I believe that qualifies, does it not?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:56 Wed 25 Sep 2013
by DRT
It was on Radio 4. I do not think Radio 4 listeners qualify as "an audience with no understanding of the topic and limited ability to understand the concept".

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:00 Wed 25 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
DRT wrote:It was on Radio 4. I do not think Radio 4 listeners qualify as "an audience with no understanding of the topic and limited ability to understand the concept".
Be careful of being over-generous to the R4 audience. Have you ever listened to Any Answers?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:02 Wed 25 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
I imagine that this professor, at home himself with the idea of what it was he meant, mis-spoke. I guess he used a kind of verbal shorthand when referring to an idea (90% formed) that he could, if required, substantiate and illustrate. I think that, as people who don't have access to his information or knowledge, we could let him off. Or would someone like to contact him and ask him to elucidate..?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:45 Wed 25 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:Or would someone like to contact him and ask him to elucidate..?
Why him, given the following?
jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:I also have a problem with the concept of the earth being "90% formed".
This isn’t a problem for me. He could have said something like ‟having accreted to 90% of its terminal mass”, but that seems needlessly formal, especially in a radio interview.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 20:10 Thu 26 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:Or would someone like to contact him and ask him to elucidate..?
Why him, given the following?
jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:I also have a problem with the concept of the earth being "90% formed".
This isn’t a problem for me. He could have said something like ‟having accreted to 90% of its terminal mass”, but that seems needlessly formal, especially in a radio interview.
Sorry. Entirely my fault. Confused the two of you. Easily done.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 20:27 Fri 27 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
In April 2009, whilst living in New York, jdaw1 wrote:If you guess wrong, you can’t guess again until somebody else has had a guess
Germans, Americans, and seemingly me in New York. Apologies.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 22:09 Fri 27 Sep 2013
by DRT
Is it wrong to guess incorrectly?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 22:15 Fri 27 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
I'm lost

Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 22:19 Fri 27 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
Oh I see. Wrong is an adjective, not an adverb. Hard on yourself JDAW.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 22:20 Fri 27 Sep 2013
by DRT
djewesbury wrote:I'm lost
Ask yourself where you are in yourself before asking others to guess incorrectly.

Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 22:20 Fri 27 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
DRT wrote:
djewesbury wrote:I'm lost
Ask yourself where you are in yourself before asking others to guess incorrectly.
good advice generally. Perhaps the motto of :tpf: ?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 22:31 Fri 27 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=60651#p60651]Here[/url] DRT wrote:May I basque in the glory for a while before thinking of a question?
No.

Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 23:20 Fri 27 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=60651#p60651]Here[/url] DRT wrote:May I basque in the glory for a while before thinking of a question?
No.
i have tried posting the comment 'a very disturbing image' twice but Tapatalk only quotes JDAW's comment (no) and does not quote what he quoted from DRT, even though I see the BB tags for everything above what I write here. It may be Tapatalk can only display one level of quoting..? Anyway Derek in a basque is not right.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 08:25 Sat 28 Sep 2013
by DRT
:oops:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:05 Sat 28 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
Not an apostrophe crime, but a real turkey nonetheless.
DRT wrote:
djewesbury wrote:Croft 85 is pricier here. Was it one of the vintages affected by VA in that year?
Avoid! I think this is the port that we ordered and sent back three bottles in a row at The Crusting Pipe as they were fowl.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:44 Sat 28 Sep 2013
by DRT
I'm not doing well at the moment. It must be the drugs.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:48 Sat 28 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
DRT wrote:I'm not doing well at the moment. It must be the drugs.
Don't fail us now, we need you.. get better drugs..

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 23:44 Sun 29 Sep 2013
by jdaw1
Wonderful thing seen in the gentlemen’s facilities in The Bung Hole:
Image
Look carefully: an optional apostrophe!
Image
You don’t see that very often.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 23:46 Sun 29 Sep 2013
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:Wonderful thing seen in the gentlemen’s facilities in The Bung Hole:
Image
Look carefully: an optional apostrophe!
Image
You don’t see that very often.
quite. You almost wish the ad agency had printed two versions.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 13:16 Sun 06 Oct 2013
by jdaw1
Little punctuation quiz (but don’t post the answer). There’s a BBC story, Muslim free school allegations prompt Labour questions. What small change to this headline’s punctuation would have dramatically changed its meaning?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 22:37 Sun 13 Oct 2013
by RAYC
The "Pinho Valley"...? "Quinta do Retiro..."?

Image

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 23:05 Sun 13 Oct 2013
by jdaw1

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 10:46 Mon 14 Oct 2013
by jdaw1
[url=http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/speeches/2013/speech685.pdf]A Deputy Governor of the Bank of England[/url], at the Institute of International Finance 2013 Annual Membership meeting, wrote:As I have said before, ‘bailin’ is a verb not a noun. It is a power, not a special kind of bond.
!
Bailin is no different from other resolution tools in that respect.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:47 Mon 14 Oct 2013
by Glenn E.
jdaw1 wrote:Little punctuation quiz (but don’t post the answer). There’s a BBC story, Muslim free school allegations prompt Labour questions. What small change to this headline’s punctuation would have dramatically changed its meaning?
I can think of one, but perhaps there are others?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:55 Mon 14 Oct 2013
by jdaw1
That question is past its best-before date. Compare:
Muslim free school allegations prompt Labour questions; and
• Muslim-free school allegations prompt Labour questions.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:31 Mon 14 Oct 2013
by Glenn E.
Yes, that was the change I was thinking of.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 23:16 Wed 16 Oct 2013
by jdaw1

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 23:21 Wed 16 Oct 2013
by DRT
Guilty m'lord. Can I plead diminished responsibility as a result of really enjoying my Talisker?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 23:26 Wed 16 Oct 2013
by jdaw1
DRT wrote:really enjoying my Talisker?
After last weekend, that is not what you should be doing. Do I detect, ahem, a lapse?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 23:33 Wed 16 Oct 2013
by DRT
jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:really enjoying my Talisker?
After last weekend, that is not what you should be doing. Do I detect, ahem, a lapse?
Oops.