1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

[flash_uk]

At the suggestion of Flash, we are to have a horizontal of 1985s.

Where: The Red Room, The Boot & Flogger, 10-20 Redcross Way, London SE1 1TA, tel +44 20 7407 1184 (streetmap.co.uk, bing, maps.google.co.uk)

When: Wednesday 25^th November 2015, starting any time between 16:45 and 18:30.

Theme: 1985.

Draft of the food order.

Thread containing review of the event as a whole.

People:

1. MPM (Cálem, Dow, Feuerheerd, Fonseca, Gould Campbell, Graham, Offley Boa Vista, Taylor);
2. WPS (Taylor, Grahams, Cálem, in storage Fonseca);
3. JDAW (magnums of Taylor and Fonseca, Churchill, Martinez);
4. IDJ (Dow, Taylor, Fonseca, Cálem, Warre, Graham, Smith Woodhouse, Noval and possibly Ramos Pinto);
5. THRA (Burmester, Cálem, Churchill, Cockburn, Croft*, Delaforce, Dow, Feuerheerd, Fonseca, Gonzalez, M (NOT Gonzalez Byass), Gould Campbell, Graham, Harveys*, Martinez, Morgan, Niepoort, Noval, Offley Boa Vista, Poças*, Rebello Valente*, Sabordella*, Sandeman, Smith Woodhouse, Taylor, Warre);
6. AHB (Graham, Fonseca, Churchill, with some notice could pull Smith Woodhouse out of storage);
7. AP (Andresen, Barros, Cockburn (might be faulty), Croft, Messias, Niepoort (might be faulty), Nacional, Rozès);
8. DJ;
9. CPR (Dow, Fonseca, Graham, Taylor, Warre, Quarles Harris);
10. RDA (TBC);
11. TC;
12. SCD;
13. CSD.

Unavailable:

• PW (Cálem, Churchill (in storage), Feuerheed, Fonseca);
• BMHR (M. Gonzalez);
• DRT (Taylor, Fonseca).

Draft of the placemats (and parameters by which made). (Do not print from this link. A few days before the tasting there will temporarily be a different link, to counteract problems with the caching of old drafts.)





Potential bottles:

1. Andresen
2. Burmester
3. Calem
4. Churchill
5. Delaforce
6. Dow
7. Ferreira
8. Feuerheerd
9. Fonseca
10. Fonseca (Magnum)
11. Gonzalez, M
12. Gould Campbell
13. Graham
14. Kopke
15. Martinez
16. Morgan
17. Noval
18. Offley Boa Vista
19. Pocas
20. Quarles Harris
21. Ramos Pinto
22. Rebello Valente
23. Sandeman
24. Smith Woodhouse
25. Taylor
26. Taylor (Magnum)
27. Warre

Potential timings:
1230 Flight 1
1330 Lunch
1630 Beer break
1730 Flight 2
1900 Dinner

Original message to start the thread:
As it is the 30^th birthday of the 1985 vintage during 2015, is there any interest in an '85 horizontal? I'm sure we could find a date during Oct/Nov/Dec. Not that I am offering to organise it, it is more that I'm about to consign some stuff to offsite storage, but if there were to be an '85 horizontal then I would hang on to some bottles.

Edit: there are many shippers for 1985. We might need an all-day two flight affair...

[WS1]

Hello,

good idea! But I think we should do a 2 session affair on a Saturday similar to when we did do the 1970 horicontal. In order to stay fresh attendees can refreshen their reflexes with pints of beer during the sessions........

regards

WS1

[jdaw1]

IIRC, there were about 60 declarations of 1985. Perhaps we might own thirty to forty of them. Is that what is wanted?

The alternative, discussed at the most recent tasting, would be to have 20ish shippers, including most of those with good reputations in this vintage. And to increase the likelihood of good drinking, I could supply magnums of Taylor and Fonseca 1985.

[DRT]

The alternative, discussed at the most recent tasting, would be to have 20ish shippers, including most of those with good reputations in this vintage. And to increase the likelihood of good drinking, I could supply magnums of Taylor and Fonseca 1985.

I like that idea.

[flash_uk]

Yes as Julian mentioned, we talked about perhaps selecting roughly 24 ports and tasting in two flights of 12. Given the vintage, we could find that between say 3 and 6 ports might prove to be faulty, thus reducing the quantity tasted to something more manageable. As a starter, here is a list of 24 shippers: Fonseca, Taylor, Graham, Warre, Dow, Croft, Noval, Gould Campbell, Smith Woodhouse, Ramos Pinto, Offley, Sandeman, Calem, Feuerheerd, Churchill, Delaforce, Ferriera, Kopke, Martinez, Morgan, Niepoort, Messias, Pocas, Quarles Harris. Before trying to work out if we have all of these, would anyone make different suggestions for the 24? What would you add and what would you take out?

Then we need to find a date.

[flash_uk]

I think we should do a 2 session affair on a Saturday similar to when we did do the 1970 horicontal.

Two sessions I think is a definite. I'd prefer a Thursday, perhaps starting sometime after 1pm. Friday might involve working from home...

[idj123]

Yes,I certainly agree with two sessions and a Friday as well as a Thursday would be preferable to a Saturday for me. As for potential shippers, any reason why Ck should not be included- perhaps in preference to say Messias?

[flash_uk]

As for potential shippers, any reason why Ck should not be included- perhaps in preference to say Messias?

I had thought Ck was frequently spoiled by VA. Messias is probably a weak link though, I agree.

[djewesbury]

Niepoort is also likely to be spoiled, no?

[uncle tom]

I have:

Burmester
Calem
Churchill
Cockburn
Croft*
Delaforce
Dow
Feuerheerd
Fonseca
Gonzalez, M (NOT Gonzalez Byass)
Gould Campbell
Graham
Harveys*
Martinez
Morgan
Niepoort
Noval
Offley Boa Vista
Pocas*
Rebello Valente*
Sabordella*
Sandeman
Smith Woodhouse
Taylor
Warre

* Indicates still in owc and awaiting rack space...

[Glenn E.]

IIRC, there were about 60 declarations of 1985. Perhaps we might own thirty to forty of them. Is that what is wanted?

44 that I knew of at the time we held our 1985 horizontal in January. We stopped at 32 bottles even though others were available because I didn't feel the need to pay $180 (in no small part due to shipping cost from EU to USA) for a Messias/Feuerheerd/etc. As I recall we had located ~40 different bottles.

Our results were... mixed. The best were excellent as usual. The next level down seemed somewhat underwhelming to us, though still very good. The third tier were mostly rubbish, though drinkable. I freely admit that provenance may not have been impeccable on the large batch of 3rd tier bottles that I contributed because I picked them up in a single purchase from an online auction house (long since forgotten). At the time I didn't think it odd that so many different producers would be available in a single auction, but now I wonder if the owner knew the provenance wasn't good and was dumping them.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I've had consistently bad experience with Croft 1985 and VA. I'd suggest not including the Croft and having something else instead unless people want to experience a really badly VA spoiled port!

[WS1]

I've had consistently bad experience with Croft 1985 and VA. I'd suggest not including the Croft and having something else instead unless people want to experience a really badly VA spoiled port!

agreed on Croft 1985! And I had consistently bad experience with Niepoort 1985 due to VA which I want to add on the cuplrits list.
Based on my experience though when they are not VA affected Croft and Niepoort 85 would be among the best ports of the vintage. Sad story but to get one non affected bt you need to open at least 12bts of Croft or Niepoort 1985.

Following AHB's suggestion I would want to suggest for scrapping the idea adding those two shippers for this planned 1985 tasting!

regards

WS1

[idj123]

As for potential shippers, any reason why Ck should not be included- perhaps in preference to say Messias?

I had thought Ck was frequently spoiled by VA. Messias is probably a weak link though, I agree.

I thought it was the Ck83 that had a dodgy reputation (although the bottle I bought to a tasting a year or two ago was pretty agreeable); is the 85 similarly blighted?

[Glenn E.]

As for potential shippers, any reason why Ck should not be included- perhaps in preference to say Messias?

I had thought Ck was frequently spoiled by VA. Messias is probably a weak link though, I agree.

I thought it was the Ck83 that had a dodgy reputation (although the bottle I bought to a tasting a year or two ago was pretty agreeable); is the 85 similarly blighted?

Ck83's reputation is TCA (corked), not VA.

I have had several very nice Croft '85s with nary a trace of VA, but perhaps I have just been very lucky. Wolfgang is right, though, in that an '85 Croft in top form is competitive with all from the vintage but the F85 and G85.

[jdaw1]

With the magnums, we have two chances of great T85 and F85. Should there be two bottles of G85?

[djewesbury]

Wolfgang is right about the Niepoort. As was I, just a few posts above him

[DRT]

With the magnums, we have two chances of great T85 and F85. Should there be two bottles of G85?

Do you mean a small one and a real one?

Suggested variation on theme: Excellent 1985s from bottle and magnum.

[jdaw1]

Ideally, but do we have a quarter-size bottle?

[DRT]

Ideally, but do we have a quarter-size bottle?

We know people who do.

[jdaw1]

Flash owns this: does he want the tasting thus re-shaped?

[DRT]

It is merely a suggestion.

[flash_uk]

With the magnums, we have two chances of great T85 and F85. Should there be two bottles of G85?

Is the suggestion that we have both singles and magnums of T, F and G?

[flash_uk]

Flash owns this: does he want the tasting thus re-shaped?

Wow hold on there! From my opening post:

Not that I am offering to organise it...

[flash_uk]

So summarising the various thoughts above, seems like Croft, Niepoort and Messias are out. We could introduce Rebello Valente, Gonzalez M and another.

[flash_uk]

First post updated with some details. We need to pick a date. I'll send some suggestions around shortly and see if we can find one that works for most of us.

[Axel P]

If the timing works I would like to be there as well.

I can contribute some as well.


Axel

[jdaw1]

This tasting needs an organiser. I’ll volunteer, possibly assisted by CPR, possibly to be replaced by CPR.

Objections?

[flash_uk]

Bravo! No objections from me, and can also help out where I can.

[jdaw1]

Dates
The vote thread is almost a draw. When Tom replies to my email asking for his availability, I’ll choose a date and allow a little time for objections. Failing cogent objection, that’ll be the date. Edit: Tom away from start-Jan. So it needs to be in 2015.

Format
Format. And this will be the format, unless either there is a clear contrary consensus or I change my mind.
• Lunchtime session: twelve single bottles.
• Evening, but starting 6pm or even 5½pm: two magnums (F and T), 13 singles (including F, T, G, D).
All sighted.
No single-session attendees. Those unable to attend lunch or evening attend neither.

I wanted to compare the Fonseca, Taylor, Graham and Dow together, the first two of which should be with the same-shipper magnums. To balance the sessions I think most of the other nine singles in the evening session should be from shippers of less repute.

Objections?
Objections? There is no pretence of democracy. If there is a clear contrary consensus, I’ll have to submit to the power of the street. Failing which, phrase your objections so as to persuade me.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Assuming that we are providing two bottles each, could I volunteer to provide singles of Graham and Fonseca?

[jdaw1]

Assuming that we are providing two bottles each, could I volunteer to provide singles of Graham and Fonseca?

Thank you.

But provision will be non-uniform, as few people have the lesser names. And already there are multiple offers of Fonseca, which in some sense is a good thing. Please could offers of provision prioritise non-Fonseca.

[flash_uk]

Of the lessers, I can offer Calem, Feuerheerd, Gould Campbell or Offley.

[PhilW]

I am very lightly stocked on '85, but I have Calem, Churchill (in storage), and a couple of bottles of Feuerheed and Fonseca, if required.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Assuming that we are providing two bottles each, could I volunteer to provide singles of Graham and Fonseca?

Thank you.

But provision will be non-uniform, as few people have the lesser names. And already there are multiple offers of Fonseca, which in some sense is a good thing. Please could offers of provision prioritise non-Fonseca.

I don't have much by way of lesser name 1985s. I have easy access to Churchill or, with some notice, could pull Smith Woodhouse out of storage. Would either or both of these be preferable to Fonseca and / or Graham?

[jdaw1]

We have a date. It doesn’t work for everybody, which I regret, but it works for as many people as possible, whether weighted equally or by number of bottles. That date is

Wednesday 25^th November 2015

The Boot & Flogger has asked whether we will be using the usual menu or the Christmas menu, and I have promised that the food order will be sent ten days in advance.

[WS1]

good man! Well done!

regards

WS1

[flash_uk]

The day before the BBR port walk - that should be a fun week

[djewesbury]

I won't make it, JDAW's rules requiring that attendance at both flights is compulsory, and my teaching continuing until 1300 that day. But we can celebrate my birthday (Monday) at the Port Walk instead (for those who aren't in Belfast the weekend before).

[DRT]

I won't make it, JDAW's rules requiring that attendance at both flights is compulsory, and my teaching continuing until 1300 that day. But we can celebrate my birthday (Monday) at the Port Walk instead (for those who aren't in Belfast the weekend before).

I could wear my fake beard and drink your first flight. JDAW will be so focused on decanting the magnums that he won't even notice

[WS1]

I won't make it, JDAW's rules requiring that attendance at both flights is compulsory, and my teaching continuing until 1300 that day. But we can celebrate my birthday (Monday) at the Port Walk instead (for those who aren't in Belfast the weekend before).

Hmm, you should still attempt to sneak in for the evening session to see if seats have already been abandoned after the lunch session......

Since I have to work the next day I am happy to share my glass with you.

regards

WS1

[DRT]

I won't make it, JDAW's rules requiring that attendance at both flights is compulsory, and my teaching continuing until 1300 that day. But we can celebrate my birthday (Monday) at the Port Walk instead (for those who aren't in Belfast the weekend before).

I could wear my fake beard and drink your first flight. JDAW will be so focused on decanting the magnums that he won't even notice

Come to think of it, I hereby raise an objection against this rule. Most people, being everyone other than the organiser, has to work for a living. Afternoons off work are easy for some, less easy for others and impossible for a few. If someone is willing to pay their share, turn up at 6pm and taste both flights in a speed-dating fashion I think that should be allowed.

[jdaw1]

I won't make it, JDAW's rules requiring that attendance at both flights is compulsory, and my teaching continuing until 1300 that day. But we can celebrate my birthday (Monday) at the Port Walk instead (for those who aren't in Belfast the weekend before).

If we are fewer than fourteen, join us for the evening. But evening-only would be thoroughly trumped by somebody able to do both sessions. (The exception applies only to Daniel. All others on parade at the start.)

[jdaw1]

Post edited:

the usual menu or the Christmas menu

[djewesbury]

I won't make it, JDAW's rules requiring that attendance at both flights is compulsory, and my teaching continuing until 1300 that day. But we can celebrate my birthday (Monday) at the Port Walk instead (for those who aren't in Belfast the weekend before).

If we are fewer than fourteen, join us for the evening. But evening-only would be thoroughly trumped by somebody able to do both sessions. (The exception applies only to Daniel. All others on parade at the start.)

Yes, sir. I will see you in the evening, numbers and rules permitting.

Derek, I'll post you the latest trimmings from my beard.

[WS1]

I won't make it, JDAW's rules requiring that attendance at both flights is compulsory, and my teaching continuing until 1300 that day. But we can celebrate my birthday (Monday) at the Port Walk instead (for those who aren't in Belfast the weekend before).

I could wear my fake beard and drink your first flight. JDAW will be so focused on decanting the magnums that he won't even notice

Come to think of it, I hereby raise an objection against this rule. Most people, being everyone other than the organiser, has to work for a living. Afternoons off work are easy for some, less easy for others and impossible for a few. If someone is willing to pay their share, turn up at 6pm and taste both flights in a speed-dating fashion I think that should be allowed.

Daniel and speed dating port? Just think of the vision

regards

WS1

[djewesbury]

I won't make it, JDAW's rules requiring that attendance at both flights is compulsory, and my teaching continuing until 1300 that day. But we can celebrate my birthday (Monday) at the Port Walk instead (for those who aren't in Belfast the weekend before).

Hmm, you should still attempt to sneak in for the evening session to see if seats have already been abandoned after the lunch session......

Since I have to work the next day I am happy to share my glass with you.

regards

WS1

A very civilised and generous offer. I hope, one way or another, that I will join you!

[DRT]

Derek, I'll post you the latest trimmings from my beard.

That might be a difficult package to explain to Mrs T.

[jdaw1]

Next task: shippers. The first post has been updated with understanding of what is available. Please could people look at what I think they’ve offered, and add if missing or correct if wrong.

[DRT]

You are correct. T & F are all I have from 1985 and I am happy to supply both. As no one else who has declared is similarly limited please can I bagsie these?