ThePortForum.com

As I browsed E-Bay, I came across a 'rare' bottle of Fonseca 94VP offered at an opening reserve of ┚¬200. Amazed at this price, I actually E-mailed the Seller highlighting the WineSearcher prices, starting at ┚¬90, and anything but rare. I received this reply,

Dear sir,
Thank you for your email.
First of all we only could know very well the real true Portuguese wines if you leave in Portugal or know certain important people in this country. Most of the wines for exportation are produced fake and fast. The real good true wines are bought by Portuguese private sellers in the same year they come to market (by the real good producers) and that you can´t find in web sites because there are many Fonsecas port wine but the real good one and rare is produced by Fonseca Guimaraens. In that web site you tell about you don´t see photos of the bottles and some of the good real wines have prices from 395 eur. The rest of it are not the good ones. One of the trusty Portuguese commercial site of wines is Lusawines and they have real good private cellers good wines but they sell 30% over the correct market price. This bottles I am selling are from my old uncles private seller collection. He have a huge collection of good wines and I convinced him to start selling it. They are so true that you can see the real photos of it, not glasses photos only. You must look for the higher prices in different places to discover what are the real good wines. There are too many Fonsecas wine in Portugal from 10 eur to 2000 eur. You have to choose what do you prefer to drink or collect. The real good and rare ones or the fake or easy to find for cheap prices. I am true to you if I say that the real price for this Fonsecas wine I am selling is at least 400 eur. You have to make a good decision.
Sorry if I disappoint you with this true story about Portuguese wines. Soon I will put to sell another very good and rare wines out of Portugal private cellars. Be aware.
Again I thank you for your question
Best regards
Alexandre Pereira

So there you go!

Now he can easily be dismissed as a Charlatan, but what worries me is a growing feeling that this isn't isolated. On another forum, an apparently decent Portuguese bloke Posted 'Tips to maximise Restaurant Wine Profits' which was basically a charter to cheat and fleece customers. When I went to both the Algarve and Oporto I became fed up of the sheer profiteering and lies the tourist was told to part with money for Port. You also cant avoid the way the big companies cry poverty every time they cant name their prices to the suppliers, yet make millions which is clearly not passed on to the workforce, who they struggle to attract due to poor wages. I love Port, I enjoy Portugal as a tourist destination, but I am becoming very disappointed in many who are involved, on differing levels, in The Port Trade who lie and con their ways to maximum profits.

Alan

Do you think this chap should be reported to eBay? He is clearly not a bona-fide seller if he is sending emails to you that border on deception. What he has written clearly stinks and is a pack of lies which a less knowing seller may be tempted to believe.

Alex

he called my Fonseca 94s fake

He disappointed me with his true story about Portuguese wines =(.

You must look for the higher prices in different places to discover what are the real good wines.

While I agree with AHB and Conky, you can't help but ackowledge that soooooooo many people believe THIS lie that's it's quite impossible to classify it as 'deception', especially when every endorses it from time to time. If I recall correctly, this phenomenon is actually called 'politics'.

But aside from playing devil's advocate here, I must admit that there is treachery here that ought to be made apparent to someone-not just the treachery involved in the sale of these wines, but that which is also so apparent in the day-to-day practices of those purchasing labor, selling services and hacking wine.

I would agree, ebay should be made aware that the seller is dishonest as it can only result in a more naive buyer being turned off to auctions.

Conky wrote:When I went to both the Algarve and Oporto I became fed up of the sheer profiteering and lies the tourist was told to part with money for Port. You also cant avoid the way the big companies cry poverty every time they cant name their prices to the suppliers, yet make millions which is clearly not passed on to the workforce, who they struggle to attract due to poor wages. I love Port, I enjoy Portugal as a tourist destination, but I am becoming very disappointed in many who are involved, on differing levels, in The Port Trade who lie and con their ways to maximum profits.

Alan,

I don't agree that it is the "The Port Trade" who are responsible for the kind of nonsense that this guy on ebay is spouting and I can't say I've come across an instance where a member of the port trade has lied or tried to con me. I agree that retailers in Portugal take advantage of a captive and largely uninformed audience and if your frustration is being directed at them then I entirely agree.

However, I think the way the Shippers behave is different, albeit that we perhaps don't agree with some of their pricing or marketing strategies. That can't be described as dishonest, just bad business. I do think there is a difference between the two groups that you have aimed this at.

Derek

Alan touches a previously unexposed nerve in commenting on the extent to which benefits from the port shippers trickle down. Wine production has traditionally involved crushing poverty and back breaking work, and probably in no region more so than the Douro.

When we tasted our way through the 66s some weeks ago, none of us spared a thought about the growers and treaders et al who made the wine. Should we? Is it any of our business? I don't know the answer; I distrust retailers which put the burden of monitoring ethical practices on their suppliers, as if they really care. But is concern for the labourer mere humbug, or proper and sensible if we think about the future of port?

Such questions are not wholly theoretical; the ability of the shippers to attract labour to make the product is crucial. Having said that, once I resume consumption at Easter, the background economics will be secondary to the pleasures of drinking.

Yes, report him to ebay. but I guess this will be like fighting zombies. For every killed there will be lots more.

My problem with the german market is specifically this. There is little to no knowledge about Port present. So our job is to raise the knowledge, then these guys can go home anyways becauses their offers are running nowhere.

But until then - fight them.

Axel

As far as vintage port is concerned, I cannot imagine a producer running two separate bottlings of wine of differing quality, but carrying the same label - the commercial benefits from doing so would be minimal, while the consequences arising from being found out would be cataclysmic!

The only possible exception might concern the sample bottles sent to journalists at the time of release - while I have no evidence of misbehaviour, the temptation to send out sample bottles that are a little bit 'special' is obvious...

For products like 20yr Tawnies, where lots for bottling are blended for each bottling run, while the label remains unchanged - there could be a slightly different situation - especially when a customer like Tesco comes to town, offering the carrot of an order big enough to consume an entire bottling run, but with the stick of wanting a very keen price.

There is virtually no critical appraisal of Tawnies in the UK, and the consumer has relatively little perception of the quality level expected of a 20yr. In Portugal though, the consumer knows his Tawnies very well.

So if you were in the blending room, sampling your 20+ yr tawny stocks, which ones would you select to blend up to bottle for the Tesco order?

You'd want a wine that was respectable - but would you give it your best juice??

Tom

uncle tom wrote:For products like 20yr Tawnies, where lots for bottling are blended for each bottling run, while the label remains unchanged - there could be a slightly different situation - especially when a customer like Tesco comes to town, offering the carrot of an order big enough to consume an entire bottling run, but with the stick of wanting a very keen price.

There is virtually no critical appraisal of Tawnies in the UK, and the consumer has relatively little perception of the quality level expected of a 20yr. In Portugal though, the consumer knows his Tawnies very well.

So if you were in the blending room, sampling your 20+ yr tawny stocks, which ones would you select to blend up to bottle for the Tesco order?

You'd want a wine that was respectable - but would you give it your best juice??

One would expect the famous brands to get the best quality, which my own experience seems to confirm:

Because I'm new to the port world I'm trying everything below a certain price, including ports from unknown brands and those carrying the name of the supermarket itself (like Tesco) to get an idea of all the different qualities and styles on the market.
So far I've tried two 10 year old Tawnies, one from Messias and one from a buyers own brand (Santelmo). Of the two the Messias was by far the best...

One would expect the famous brands to get the best quality, which my own experience seems to confirm

My question is: do the famous brands always blend old Tawnies to the same standard, particularly when supplying a very large, but price-aggressive customer, who is selling into a market that is not particularly discerning for this class of product?

- Maybe they do, maybe they don't..

My only personal observation is that the basic (and usually anonymous) 'house' ports offered by ordinary restaurants in Portugal have always been tawnies and always surprisingly good - leaving me wondering: "if this is the everyday juice, what do they drink on special occasions?"

Tom

At least they have to be at a certain standard. Im back from an appointment at the IVDP including a very interesting tour through the building.

The IVDP is buying certain bottles off the shelf to re-test them again. I guess no one of the big brands could afford really producing two standards which they sell under one brand.

Especcially with the world moving closer together it is almost not possible to guarantee that the quantities do not mix up.

Axel

uncle tom wrote:My question is: do the famous brands always blend old Tawnies to the same standard, particularly when supplying a very large, but price-aggressive customer, who is selling into a market that is not particularly discerning for this class of product?

Good question. I guess the only way to really find out is to buy a "famous brand X 10yo Tawny" at Tesco's and the exact same one from a wine specialist and compare. I can't imagine a famous brand jeopardizing their reputation by giving Tesco an inferior blend, though...
I read that many port shippers vary blends for the market they are to be sold in, adapted to the reginal preferences. In other words the blend sold in France might be different from the one sold in the UK (see http://www.infoportwine.com.)

I don't expect a 'house' port to be the same blend as a famous port from the same shipper, but who knows?

Derek T. wrote:

Conky wrote:When I went to both the Algarve and Oporto I became fed up of the sheer profiteering and lies the tourist was told to part with money for Port. You also cant avoid the way the big companies cry poverty every time they cant name their prices to the suppliers, yet make millions which is clearly not passed on to the workforce, who they struggle to attract due to poor wages. I love Port, I enjoy Portugal as a tourist destination, but I am becoming very disappointed in many who are involved, on differing levels, in The Port Trade who lie and con their ways to maximum profits.

Alan,

I don't agree that it is the "The Port Trade" who are responsible for the kind of nonsense that this guy on ebay is spouting and I can't say I've come across an instance where a member of the port trade has lied or tried to con me. I agree that retailers in Portugal take advantage of a captive and largely uninformed audience and if your frustration is being directed at them then I entirely agree.

However, I think the way the Shippers behave is different, albeit that we perhaps don't agree with some of their pricing or marketing strategies. That can't be described as dishonest, just bad business. I do think there is a difference between the two groups that you have aimed this at.

Derek

You of course do not have to agree, but the point I was trying to make, was that for such a great product, steeped in tradition and culture, there are some rather uncomfortable sides to it.
Its like the Golf in Spain and Portugal, it started off as a cheap adventure. There was serious money to be made. The Owners started to become very professional and business like. The associated businesses began to form around the main event. The money and profit then turned into the Golden Goose and they pushed and pushed for more profit. The money was not spread to the workers and locals. Then finally they priced themselves out of the market, and had to reduce prices across the board, and accept they had milked it all too much.
I can see this in the Port Trade, and it makes me uncomfortable.

Alan

Alan,

I accept the point about the treatment of workers but I am quite sure that pattern is repeated world-wide.

However, my point is that I don't believe the shippers are con men. Pricing a quality product too high and trying to make too much profit out of it is not dishonest, it is simply opportunistic or niaive depending on the market conditions. The guy on Ebay is a con man because he is telling lies in order to persuade someone to buy his bottle at a vastly inflated price. His behaviour and that of a shipper who prices his VP too high on release are different issues.

Derek

Its still there, an surprisingly there's been no bids! I looked at the page, but cant see how you complain?
His twaddle was similar to near enough every waiter I came across on my jaunts to Portugal. It's not naivety, its dishonesty to make a buck. I'm not saying the Shippers are that clearly dishonest, they are just shrewd and greedy. I hope they do not get away with their current policies.

Alan,

Just so you stop confusing my words, my opinion is:

Ebay Man, Portuguese Waiters, Wine Merchants and Barmen = dishonest

Port Shippers = poor businessmen

There is a difference.

Derek

Derek T. wrote:Alan,

Just so you stop confusing my words, my opinion is:

Ebay Man, Portuguese Waiters, Wine Merchants and Barmen = dishonest

Port Shippers = poor businessmen

There is a difference.

Derek

Oh dear.... I'm sat here ready for the cut and thrust debate. But I unfortunately agree with that summary.

Hmmm....I'll wait for the dodgy Port to kick in further, I'm sure I'll find something to challenge

Alan

So what's your dodgy port of last night? I opened a bottle of the '91 Morgan last night, having polished off on Wednesday night the last remnants of the '94 Martinez that was opened for the Roots Farewell Online.

'91 Morgan tasting note on its way.

Alex

I'm drinking Dows LBV 2001 (Cant find the emoticon that heaves?)
I've got 6 bottles of that Taylors we all jumped on, think its 98 (to young). A couple of M85, a Grahams 70 which is earmarked for next week, and a few bottles that have been promised to me, but they are miles away. So the cupboard is bare...literally.

Crisis!!!

10Anos wrote:I don't expect a 'house' port to be the same blend as a famous port from the same shipper, but who knows?

Yesterday I opened a supermarket-brand Ruby bottled by the same shipper as Offley (Sogrape Vinhos). The bottle has a similar shape. It was a while since I had the Offley, but at first it seemed quite similar. A day after opening I'm quite sure the blend is similar to, but not exactly the same as the Offley Ruby. I must say that I like it, despite the fact that it's a 'cheap Ruby'.

I happen to have a Tawny of the same supermarket-brand which I'm planning to compare 1:1 to the Offley Tawny in the near future.

10Anos wrote:I happen to have a Tawny of the same supermarket-brand which I'm planning to compare 1:1 to the Offley Tawny in the near future.

As promised a while ago:
right now I'm comparing two standard Tawnies bottled by Sogrape Vinhos to find out whether they are the same, alike or completely different.

On one side is a buyers own brand (BOB) Tawny, on the other the Offley Tawny. Both have 19.5% alcohol content. The bottles are similar in shape and equal in height and diameter. This will probably facilitate the use of the same bottling line without change.

I poured equal amounts of both ports in identical glasses, both bottles were kept in the same place and therefore were at the same temperature.

Colour:
BOB: clear red with a tawny hue
Offley: just clear red, not really any tawny to be found
Nose:
BOB: overripe fruit, bananas, not really pleasant
Offley: nutty
Palate:
BOB: ripe fruit, nuts, unpleasant
Offley: nuts, wood

Simply put: they are very different. The Offley is well worth the extra ┚¬ 1.60 over the BOB.
In this class I wasn't expecting this big a difference in taste, but there it is.

In the future I will be comparing a BOB 10yo Tawny with a 10yo Tawny of a well-known brand of the same house.

In VNG I concluded that the basic tawnies from Taylor and Croft were probably bottled from the same stock - this was not denied, but the Croft is sold for less..

Tom

Right now I have two 2001 Late Bottled Vintages which were both bottled in 2007 by the Symingtons. One is a buyer's own brand and one a famous brand. I also have two identical decanters (ideal for 1:1 comparisons). When they're both empty (probably soon ), I'm planning another comparison...

Back to the original point, do you think some of the Landowners are deeply religious....?

Matthew 20:1-16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.
"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."



Always thought this Forum could do with a splash of the scriptures....

Alan

Mum,

How many times do I have to tell you not to pretend to be other people on internet forums

Derek