Port Vintages, Second Edition

Anything to do with Port.
winesecretary
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by winesecretary »

That would be an ecumenical question.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

DRT wrote: 20:48 Sun 26 Dec 2021Should the cut-off be measured in pages or known vintages? You might have scant information on 20 vintages that takes up 3 pages, or a few interesting stories on 5 vintages that take up 5 pages/ Which is more worthy of a chapter in a book that aims to tell us "Who declared what?"
+ Pictures.

Pages chosen because conveniently to hand. Even though only an approximation to an ideal measure, sufficiently correlated to be relevant.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Justin K »

winesecretary wrote: 20:52 Sun 26 Dec 2021 That would be an ecumenical question.
On a point of order that quotation is strictly reserved for persons from the island of Ireland (have I been careful now Michael?).
You weren’t to know George but as a lawyer ignorance is no defence😊
Oh likewise “the money was just resting in my account”
Happy New Year to you all🍷
Last edited by Justin K on 00:50 Mon 27 Dec 2021, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Justin K »

😂🥃🍷🥂😊
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Does anyone else think Justin might have had an excellent Christmas?

Merry Christmas Justin!

Julian - I have a Guedes 1920 label in my collection. Remind me to send you a picture of it if you’d like it for the second (and even bigger and even heavier) edition.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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flash_uk
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by flash_uk »

Justin K wrote: 00:48 Mon 27 Dec 2021
winesecretary wrote: 20:52 Sun 26 Dec 2021 That would be an ecumenical question.
On a point of order that quotation is strictly reserved for persons from the island of Ireland (have I been careful now Michael?).
:D
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

¿
• Second Edition
• 2022 Edition
?
MigSU
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by MigSU »

Second Edition.
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Doggett
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Doggett »

MigSU wrote: 17:19 Tue 28 Dec 2021 Second Edition.
Most definitely +1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by PhilW »

Second edition (only 2022 if you were updating for all the latest releases)
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Glenn E. »

Doggett wrote: 17:48 Tue 28 Dec 2021
MigSU wrote: 17:19 Tue 28 Dec 2021 Second Edition.
Most definitely +1
+1.

"Second Edition" never feels outdated. Until a Third Edition is published, the Second Edition always feels current. Of course if one knows that the Second Edition was published in 1993 one might still know that it is outdated, but the name itself ages well.

"2022 Edition" feels outdated starting in 2023. In a way it also implies that there will be a 2023 Edition, or at least a regular new edition, which is pressure that the author presumably does not want.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

Glenn E. wrote: 19:32 Tue 28 Dec 2021"Second Edition" never feels outdated. Until a Third Edition is published, the Second Edition always feels current. Of course if one knows that the Second Edition was published in 1993 one might still know that it is outdated, but the name itself ages well.
Thank you, to Glenn and others. I’m convinced: Second Edition it is.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by JacobH »

jdaw1 wrote: 18:29 Fri 24 Dec 2021
uncle tom wrote: 22:41 Thu 23 Dec 2021The best, but most tedious addition (traditionally) would be the inclusion of a master index - where every subject title and proper noun gets page referenced.
What for? What have you sought and been unable to find?
I have to confess to being slightly defeated by the indices in the book. I’ve used the it for three main purposes: to see who declared a given vintage; to see which years a particular shipper declared; and to check the provenance of a specific unusual bottle.

The first category is pretty easy: there are very helpful tables towards the back. The second and third categories are rather more difficult. If, for example, I want to see what vintages were declared by Andresen or if a 1983 Quinta do Seixo was commercially available; I’d normally start by turning to the index and looking for “Andresen” and either “Quinta ... Seixo (do)”; or “Seixo, Quinta do”. I think none of these options are available.

My next step would be to look in the Table of Contents but this doesn’t provide details of shippers that are in the “Other Shippers” section nor of single Quintas. When in this situation previously, I’ve therefore flicked through the “Other Shippers” section which sometimes helps but sometimes does not.

I appreciate that once someone gets into the text everything is well referenced (e.g. if I thought to look in the Sandeman chapter for Quinta do Seixo, I’d find the reference to the fact that the 1983 and 1982 are actually located in the Ferreira chapter) but it is not immediately clear to me how to do that without some external knowledge.

I fully accept I may be doing something wrong and if so I apologise, but I have had the above problem a couple of times!
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Glenn E. »

Glenn E. wrote: 19:32 Tue 28 Dec 2021
Doggett wrote: 17:48 Tue 28 Dec 2021
MigSU wrote: 17:19 Tue 28 Dec 2021 Second Edition.
Most definitely +1
+1.

"Second Edition" never feels outdated. Until a Third Edition is published, the Second Edition always feels current. Of course if one knows that the Second Edition was published in 1993 one might still know that it is outdated, but the name itself ages well.

"2022 Edition" feels outdated starting in 2023. In a way it also implies that there will be a 2023 Edition, or at least a regular new edition, which is pressure that the author presumably does not want.
It pains me greatly to realize that I missed an excellent opportunity. I should not have replied with "+1" to indicate my preference. I should have replied with:

SecondEd.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by MigSU »

Glenn E. wrote: 19:29 Thu 30 Dec 2021
Glenn E. wrote: 19:32 Tue 28 Dec 2021
Doggett wrote: 17:48 Tue 28 Dec 2021
MigSU wrote: 17:19 Tue 28 Dec 2021 Second Edition.
Most definitely +1
+1.

"Second Edition" never feels outdated. Until a Third Edition is published, the Second Edition always feels current. Of course if one knows that the Second Edition was published in 1993 one might still know that it is outdated, but the name itself ages well.

"2022 Edition" feels outdated starting in 2023. In a way it also implies that there will be a 2023 Edition, or at least a regular new edition, which is pressure that the author presumably does not want.
It pains me greatly to realize that I missed an excellent opportunity. I should not have replied with "+1" to indicate my preference. I should have replied with:

SecondEd.
Oh, you.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

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JacobH wrote: 11:31 Thu 30 Dec 2021I have to confess to being slightly defeated by the indices in the book. I’ve used the it for three main purposes: to see who declared a given vintage; to see which years a particular shipper declared; and to check the provenance of a specific unusual bottle.

The first category is pretty easy: there are very helpful tables towards the back. The second and third categories are rather more difficult. If, for example, I want to see what vintages were declared by Andresen or if a 1983 Quinta do Seixo was commercially available; I’d normally start by turning to the index and looking for “Andresen” and either “Quinta ... Seixo (do)”; or “Seixo, Quinta do”. I think none of these options are available.

My next step would be to look in the Table of Contents but this doesn’t provide details of shippers that are in the “Other Shippers” section nor of single Quintas. When in this situation previously, I’ve therefore flicked through the “Other Shippers” section which sometimes helps but sometimes does not.

I appreciate that once someone gets into the text everything is well referenced (e.g. if I thought to look in the Sandeman chapter for Quinta do Seixo, I’d find the reference to the fact that the 1983 and 1982 are actually located in the Ferreira chapter) but it is not immediately clear to me how to do that without some external knowledge.

I fully accept I may be doing something wrong and if so I apologise, but I have had the above problem a couple of times!
Tom asked for an index of every proper noun. Yikes: “Christie’s” might appear on hundred+ pages. “Cockburn” on every page in the Cockburn chapter, and every Wine Society catalogue picture. Both of those feel unhelpful.

The Table of Contents at the start could say “Graham, + Malvedos + Lages”. That has the merit of usefulness and brevity. (Indeed, should that be the chapter title?)

Please give specific guidance: what should I do?
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

The Addendum has a lovely two-page essay by John Crisp, a retired wine merchant and member of the Peterborough Port Club. There isn’t a chapter in which it belongs. I think it is to be omitted from the second edition. Any passionate disagreements?
winesecretary
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by winesecretary »

I think there is a place for it; referred to somewhere in the Introduction, placed somewhere before the index. It has a particular flavour of temps perdu which I think is valuable to record.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by DRT »

jdaw1 wrote: 17:37 Sat 01 Jan 2022 The Addendum has a lovely two-page essay by John Crisp, a retired wine merchant and member of the Peterborough Port Club. There isn’t a chapter in which it belongs. I think it is to be omitted from the second edition. Any passionate disagreements?
John Crisp's essay could be placed as an introduction to the section on bottlers. I think it is worthy of inclusion.

You could also reference his last bottling (G63) in the Graham chapter to allow you to place Edward Crisp Ltd in the bottler's index.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

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jdaw1 wrote: 16:14 Sat 01 Jan 2022 Please give specific guidance: what should I do?
An index of Shippers and Quintas would be really helpful. For me, as examples, I would really appreciate something set out in sufficient detail that it would allow me to find: a) where the list of Andresen Vintages are; b) the location of the Quinta do Seixo references in both the Sandeman & Ferreira chapters; and c) the reference to the 1896 Cockburn on page 587 (the extracts from Wyndham Fletcher’s book) which has not made it into the Cockburn chapter.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Christopher »

I would very much like to include the details from John Crisp, real Port history and very special. I would be extremely sad if excluded, it’s the idiosyncrasies that make the book so enjoyable.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

Christopher wrote: 00:19 Tue 04 Jan 2022I would very much like to include the details from John Crisp, real Port history and very special. I would be extremely sad if excluded, it’s the idiosyncrasies that make the book so enjoyable.
It mentions Graham 1963, so will go there.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

JacobH wrote: 13:50 Sun 02 Jan 2022
jdaw1 wrote: 16:14 Sat 01 Jan 2022Please give specific guidance: what should I do?
An index of Shippers and Quintas would be really helpful. For me, as examples, I would really appreciate something set out in sufficient detail that it would allow me to find: a) where the list of Andresen Vintages are; b) the location of the Quinta do Seixo references in both the Sandeman & Ferreira chapters; and c) the reference to the 1896 Cockburn on page 587 (the extracts from Wyndham Fletcher’s book) which has not made it into the Cockburn chapter.
If I have understood correctly, this is good.

So, with fictitious page numbers, I might have an entry of the new index that resembles:
Cockburn: p12, p23, p45; 1815 p24, p200; 1820 p24; …
And likewise for “Malvedos, Quinta das”, etc. The page references will include instances in pictures of catalogues, etc.

Please confirm or correct my understanding.

To give a sense of scale, outside the Cockburn chapter the word “Cockburn” appears 680 times. Plus more instances in images. This will be non-trivial work. And the first edition had 4459 index entries, so this new index will be about 3× longer than the other indexes combined.
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JacobH
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by JacobH »

jdaw1 wrote: 18:51 Sat 08 Jan 2022 So, with fictitious page numbers, I might have an entry of the new index that resembles:
Cockburn: p12, p23, p45; 1815 p24, p200; 1820 p24; …
And likewise for “Malvedos, Quinta das”, etc. The page references will include instances in pictures of catalogues, etc.

Please confirm or correct my understanding.
That’s precisely what I had in mind. My instinct when I look for a Quinta in a book’s index is to start at “Q” section (assuming they are arranged as “Quintas:— Malvedos, das: p1, 24, 32; Vargellas de: p2, 23, 25” etc.) but it may be that many other people go for the main word.

It also occurs to me that if you had enough time you could mark the years in the index as to whether they are declarations or not by changing the typography. E.g. “Taylor: 1992: p4, 5; 1993: p6, 7”. I only mention that in case it appeals to you: it really wouldn’t be necessary for functionality.

I’ve never prepared an index but I can understand what a substantive task it would be. I know that some people do it professionally. I wonder if with practice it becomes easier?
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

JacobH wrote: 12:45 Sun 09 Jan 2022My instinct when I look for a Quinta in a book’s index is to start at “Q” section (assuming they are arranged as “Quintas:— Malvedos, das: p1, 24, 32; Vargellas de: p2, 23, 25” etc.) but it may be that many other people go for the main word.
The Noval chapter comes before Offley, rather than after Quarles Harris. So I have used, and still favour, main-word ordering. Does anybody strongly disagree?
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