Port Vintages, Second Edition

Anything to do with Port.
MigSU
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by MigSU »

jdaw1 wrote: 13:41 Sun 09 Jan 2022
JacobH wrote: 12:45 Sun 09 Jan 2022My instinct when I look for a Quinta in a book’s index is to start at “Q” section (assuming they are arranged as “Quintas:— Malvedos, das: p1, 24, 32; Vargellas de: p2, 23, 25” etc.) but it may be that many other people go for the main word.
The Noval chapter comes before Offley, rather than after Quarles Harris. So I have used, and still favour, main-word ordering. Does anybody strongly disagree?
I agree with your method. I prefer to go to "M" to look for "Malvedos".


BTW, it's Quinta dos Malvedos, not das Malvedos.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

Please also comment on a larger variation. If you want to learn about Cockburn, really, go to the Cockburn chapter. So it might make more sense to use the transpose, in which the major level is the vintage, and the brand is the lesser ontology.
1815: Cockburn p24; Croft p50–1; Ferreria p126, 131; Feuerheerd p144; Noval p293; Quarles Harris p352; Royal Oporto p394; Sandeman p410; unspecified p197, 203, 224, 303, 511, 563, 596
The obvious answer is ‘both’, which is hereby vetoed. One copy of this index will add many pages, and be much work. One is enough.


MigSU wrote: 14:02 Sun 09 Jan 2022BTW, it's Quinta dos Malvedos, not das Malvedos.
I don’t like careless errors. Sorry.
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JacobH
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by JacobH »

jdaw1 wrote: 15:04 Sun 09 Jan 2022 Please also comment on a larger variation. If you want to learn about Cockburn, really, go to the Cockburn chapter. So it might make more sense to use the transpose, in which the major level is the vintage, and the brand is the lesser ontology.
1815: Cockburn p24; Croft p50–1; Ferreria p126, 131; Feuerheerd p144; Noval p293; Quarles Harris p352; Royal Oporto p394; Sandeman p410; unspecified p197, 203, 224, 303, 511, 563, 596
The obvious answer is ‘both’, which is hereby vetoed. One copy of this index will add many pages, and be much work. One is enough.
I can only speak for myself but I can’t imagine using the index this way (especially in light of the tables you provide) whereas I would have used it the other way several times.


jdaw1 wrote: 15:04 Sun 09 Jan 2022
MigSU wrote: 14:02 Sun 09 Jan 2022BTW, it's Quinta dos Malvedos, not das Malvedos.
I don’t like careless errors. Sorry.
Me too, even though most of my posts on :tpf: are semi-literate. Apologies.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

JacobH wrote: 17:46 Sun 09 Jan 2022
jdaw1 wrote: 15:04 Sun 09 Jan 2022Please also comment on a larger variation. If you want to learn about Cockburn, really, go to the Cockburn chapter. So it might make more sense to use the transpose, in which the major level is the vintage, and the brand is the lesser ontology.
1815: Cockburn p24; Croft p50–1; Ferreria p126, 131; Feuerheerd p144; Noval p293; Quarles Harris p352; Royal Oporto p394; Sandeman p410; unspecified p197, 203, 224, 303, 511, 563, 596
The obvious answer is ‘both’, which is hereby vetoed. One copy of this index will add many pages, and be much work. One is enough.
I can only speak for myself but I can’t imagine using the index this way (especially in light of the tables you provide) whereas I would have used it the other way several times.
An index of circa 10k entries will be much work. So I won’t want to be transposing it later. Please could others comment.
• 1815 a sub-entry of Cockburn?
• Cockburn a sub-entry of 1815?
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Doggett
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Doggett »

I think the years as sub-entries of the producers in the index, if you were to do an index that is.
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DRT
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by DRT »

There is already a table of vintages by shipper. I see no real value in repeating that data in an index.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by PhilW »

Before the technology of electronic text searching became possible, whether thanks to an original being made available in electronic form, or through a process of scanning and OCR to allow electronic searching, huge indexes or even separately published concordances would allow the identification of relevant information in venerable tomes.

Most of the examples which people have raised (such as wanting to find all mentions of a particular Quinta), along with several searches I would like to have been able to easily perform during bottle identification (such as all mentions of Berry Bros/Brothers, a rampant lion, or a specific bottler), would realistically only mostly be possible with either an index of proper nouns, or a concordance. While presumably such could be automagically generated by some word processing tool, it strikes me that the right answer here would be electronic publication, to allow electronic searching of the most excellent resource. I might have suggested this previously, unsuccessfully, however.

If an index is to be the answer, then I would suggest an index of proper nouns; if that were too onerous then an index of Brands/Shippers/Quintas/Bottlers perhaps (though the book is already indexed by brand/shipper, so perhaps just Quintas and Bottlers indexes? and a no from me on the indexing by year as primary key). But please, just publish electronically so we can search for anything we want!
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

DRT wrote: 18:17 Sun 09 Jan 2022There is already a table of vintages by shipper. I see no real value in repeating that data in an index.
Because there not all mentions of Cockburn 1927 are in the Cockburn chapter. And, non-text, pictured elsewhere are wine merchant catalogues featuring Ck27. And some Quintas have changed hands, and a reader might not know in which chapters to look.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Doggett »

Is producing an index, say one that was based on proper nouns as Phil suggests, something that you can outsource and pay a service for? If so, you could then pass on the cost of that, if it is reasonable enough for you to want to engage, to the readers building it into the price of the second edition?
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

Doggett wrote: 19:21 Sun 09 Jan 2022proper nouns
Please define.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Doggett »

jdaw1 wrote: 22:40 Sun 09 Jan 2022
Doggett wrote: 19:21 Sun 09 Jan 2022proper nouns
Please define.
“A proper noun is a specific (i.e., not generic) name for a particular person, place, or thing. Proper nouns are always capitalized in English, no matter where they fall in a sentence. ... Every noun can be classified as either common or proper. A common noun is the generic name for one item in a class or group”
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flash_uk
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by flash_uk »

PhilW wrote: 18:18 Sun 09 Jan 2022 Before the technology of electronic text searching became possible, whether thanks to an original being made available in electronic form, or through a process of scanning and OCR to allow electronic searching, huge indexes or even separately published concordances would allow the identification of relevant information in venerable tomes.

Most of the examples which people have raised (such as wanting to find all mentions of a particular Quinta), along with several searches I would like to have been able to easily perform during bottle identification (such as all mentions of Berry Bros/Brothers, a rampant lion, or a specific bottler), would realistically only mostly be possible with either an index of proper nouns, or a concordance. While presumably such could be automagically generated by some word processing tool, it strikes me that the right answer here would be electronic publication, to allow electronic searching of the most excellent resource. I might have suggested this previously, unsuccessfully, however.

If an index is to be the answer, then I would suggest an index of proper nouns; if that were too onerous then an index of Brands/Shippers/Quintas/Bottlers perhaps (though the book is already indexed by brand/shipper, so perhaps just Quintas and Bottlers indexes? and a no from me on the indexing by year as primary key). But please, just publish electronically so we can search for anything we want!
I wonder if previously, people understood electronic publishing to mean the whole book. Whereas I think here you mean publish the index electronically?
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by PhilW »

flash_uk wrote: 09:38 Mon 10 Jan 2022 I wonder if previously, people understood electronic publishing to mean the whole book. Whereas I think here you mean publish the index electronically?
No, I meant publishing the whole book electronically, as there would then be no need for additional indexing as the reader/researcher would be able to search for any item of their choice (which is highly desirable for a book intended as a definitive/useful reference of records).
I do appreciate there is a balance of risks involved in such a decision which has to be made by the author; I believe a strong case can be made for electronic publishing for this book to maximise usage, and this thread provides some good examples of desired use by its readers and hence the value of electronical publishing; hopefully we will persuade Julian eventually.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

I'll add my thoughts here, which are a little different from some of those above and probably closer to Derek's than to some others.

I currently have an index of major shippers (each one has its own chapter) and a table which shows which shippers declared which vintages. This gives me 95% of what I need.

I would find an index / table / contents at the start of the "Other Shippers and Brands" chapter very mildly helpful, but only to save me the effort of flicking through that chapter to see whether eg. Pocas is mentioned or not.

I would find an index of Quintas of interest. This would list the substantive part of the quinta name (Malvedos, not Quinta dos Malvedos) and would give a reference to the main chapters in which it appears (eg. Vargellas: Ferreira -1911, Taylor 1912-). If the quinta was used for production for other people not covered in these chapters then page references to those other listings would be of interest.

I am not interested and can't think of any time I would ever need to know that Graham Malvedos 1958 appeared on the 1969 Wine Society Catalogue page which appears in the Gonzalez Byass chapter as evidence for the existence of Gonzalez Byass 1955.

I would find an index of bottlers of interest. Would this be easiest created as another table in the back of the book? Or at the end of each chapter? Perhaps at the end of each chapter you could have a table which lists the known UK bottlers of each vintage and can index these chapter tables. This would allow the reader who has a bottle of Croft 1927 to confirm that it was known to have been bottled by Berry Brothers by referring to the back of the Croft chapter. Alternatively if the reader has a bottle of Berry Brothers bottled Port known to be the 1927 vintage they can refer to the bottler index at the back of the book to see that Berry Brothers were known to have bottled Croft Port - and the diligent reader can then go to the back of the Croft chapter to find confirmation that Berry's did bottle the Croft 1927.

I can't see any other indices which I would find helpful which are not already in the book.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

Doggett wrote: 23:25 Sun 09 Jan 2022“A proper noun is a specific (i.e., not generic) name for a particular person, place, or thing. Proper nouns are always capitalized in English, no matter where they fall in a sentence. ... Every noun can be classified as either common or proper. A common noun is the generic name for one item in a class or group”
PhilW wrote: 18:18 Sun 09 Jan 2022(such as all mentions of Berry Bros/Brothers, a rampant lion, or a specific bottler), would realistically only mostly be possible with either an index of proper nouns, or a concordance.
Slight clash.


How big would this be?
jdaw1 wrote: 18:51 Sat 08 Jan 2022the first edition had 4459 index entries

Word counts, excluding that shipper’s chapter, excluding images, excluding indexes, excluding Acknowledgements, excluding some other bits:
• 18, Burmester
• 8, Butler Nephew
• 57, Cálem
• 649, Cockburn
• 209, Croft
• 37, Delaforce
• 261, Dow
• 77, Ferreira
• 38, Feuerheerd
• 165, Fonseca
• 25, Gonzalez Byass
• 94, Gould Campbell
• 235, Graham
• 7, Hooper
• 65, Kopke
• 10, Krohn (Wiese &)
• 20, Mackenzie
• 147, Martinez
• 40, Morgan
• 40, Niepoort
• 159, Quinta do Noval
• 140, Offley
• 35, Quarles Harris
• 13, Ramos Pinto
• 136, Rebello Valente
• 16, Royal Oporto / Real Companhia Velha
• 245, Sandeman
• 96, Smith Woodhouse
• 437, Taylor
• 66, Tuke Holdsworth
• 215, Warre

∑ = 3760. Adjustments needed: minus repeats within a paragraph; minus pointers (e.g., “image on page 457 in Taylor 1834”); plus instances within images; plus Quintas. Let’s guesstimate those to come to about quits. The current indexes run pp624–635, already twelve pages ⟹︎ this shipper index would be another ten pages. Which could be tolerable.

So an index of all proper nouns might come to another thirty+ pages. It is not only work to do, it’s also print cost, postage cost, and an ever more unwieldy book. This unhappily approaches:
PhilW wrote: 18:18 Sun 09 Jan 2022separately published concordances
Has this reasoning dissuaded me? At least somewhat. Shippers, maybe; but not more.
Alex Bridgeman wrote: 16:22 Mon 10 Jan 2022I can't see any other indices which I would find helpful which are not already in the book.
Shippers, maybe not.


Alex Bridgeman wrote: 16:22 Mon 10 Jan 2022I would find an index of bottlers of interest. … can refer to the bottler index at the back of the book
The “would” puzzled me, because, as late acknowledged, there is such an index.



I hear the plea for electronic.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by winesecretary »

I remain of the view that electronic is to be avoided. Not least because of the wonderful pleasure of thumping the book down dangerously closely to a glass of obscure port to find out if it is featured.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Christopher »

Totally agree, not at all keen on electronic: it takes away from the book and makes it less special.
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nac
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by nac »

Agree completely about non-electronic.

Much of the joy of a book is to do with it… being a book.

Kindle et al is a soulless experience.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

There was recently posted at TPF a pictrue of Allnutt’s 1893 Trade catalogue. Excellent — much needed further evidence of the existence of Mg1875.

Lots of prices. Eleven Vintages. How do they compare?
Image
Mostly, older is more expensive. The “Romaneiro 1869” is expensive for its age (surprising Vintage, too), and the “Croft’s 1862, dry” cheap.


Even more bottling dates, many non-VPs being represented with a ‘•’.
Image

There are multiple opportunities in the book for such charts, especially with inter-war Wine Society catalogues. Would some such charts be welcome to readers? I’m imagining (i.e., not promising) in about a dozen places, most being only the chart against Vintage. An excessive profusion of such charts would be, well, excessive, but would ‘some’ be welcomed?

Please comment how welcome this would be, and whether the broad design of the charts captures well the information.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by MigSU »

While I do find them interesting, I have to say that I believe their inclusion would be a bit, well, excessive.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by winesecretary »

If one could correct for inflation in the relevant periods could one derive further insights?

A cynic might say that what I am saying is that this would primarily be of interest to economists.

Plus those who want to try Dow 1878.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by Doggett »

winesecretary wrote: 19:33 Sun 13 Feb 2022 A cynic might say that what I am saying is that this would primarily be of interest to economists.

Plus those who want to try Dow 1878.
And who doesn’t want to try Dow 1878? It should be a requirement of :tpf: membership!
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jdaw1
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by jdaw1 »

MigSU wrote: 19:12 Sun 13 Feb 2022While I do find them interesting, I have to say that I believe their inclusion would be a bit, well, excessive.
Why is ‘interesting’ insufficient?

winesecretary wrote: 19:33 Sun 13 Feb 2022If one could correct for inflation in the relevant periods could one derive further insights?
What correction for inflation? The prices are all as of the same moment.

winesecretary wrote: 19:33 Sun 13 Feb 2022A cynic might say that what I am saying is that this would primarily be of interest to economists.
Some readers have basic numerical skills, some of whom might be interested in what the numbers say.

winesecretary wrote: 19:33 Sun 13 Feb 2022Plus those who want to try Dow 1878.
Doggett wrote: 21:05 Sun 13 Feb 2022And who doesn’t want to try Dow 1878?
If of interest to those who want to try Dow 1878, then surely of interest to everybody.

Doggett wrote: 21:05 Sun 13 Feb 2022And who doesn’t want to try Dow 1878? It should be a requirement of :tpf: membership!
Entailing a considerable shrinkage of our membership. (Not of the members, of the membership.)
MigSU
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by MigSU »

jdaw1 wrote: 21:42 Sun 13 Feb 2022
MigSU wrote: 19:12 Sun 13 Feb 2022While I do find them interesting, I have to say that I believe their inclusion would be a bit, well, excessive.
Why is ‘interesting’ insufficient?
Because I find it to be of merely a passing interest. Something that makes me mumble "Huh...interesting" 10 seconds before I move on. I think it would clutter the book and have very limited informational value - at least to myself. I'd be surprised if I was in any way representative of the potential readership.
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Re: Port Vintages, Second Edition

Post by DRT »

I think these charts only tell us what we already know - old Port costs more than young Port.

Something that might be more interesting in chart format would be the progression of release prices across a number of decades for a selection of producers for which sufficient data exists. I recall there being many such price lists in the minutes of the Wine Committees of colleges and clubs. That data would illustrate the growth in actual price over time and also the movements in the positioning of the various houses. I know that at one time Cockburn or Sandeman would have topped the price list, but when was that and when did they drop down the list?
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