Madeira for Beginners

To record tasting notes and thoughts on fortified wines we might try which do not come from the demarcated region of the Douro Valley
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slateshalehead
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Madeira for Beginners

Post by slateshalehead »

After speaking with a friend about how my wife and I often struggle to finish off a full bottle of daily drinking port before it starts to go off, they suggested I try madeira wines. I know that, thanks to their production and aging process they can keep for much longer and can stand to be opened for longer, but otherwise I am rather clueless. Does anyone have any recommendations for a good place to start with madeira wines?
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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*cracks knuckles*

I have made an assumption you are UK based.

Let's define 'daily drinkers'.

At the £20/75cl level port is much, much better value.

Madeira is produced on a really astonishingly small scale at the acceptable quality level. It is time-intensive to produce and is very slow to mature.

I have rarely had a madeira less than a 15 year old varietal designation (which does not have to be 15, but does have to conform to a style and intensity) of which it is worth drinking a second glass. The current Barbeito 10 yo Sercial below is a rare and excellent exception.

So - in Madeira you should expect to be paying around £30-£40/75cl for something that starts to be interesting (note most of the below are 50 cl).

Don't buy anything without a grape designated on the label. Trust me on this. Your classic four are sercial, verdelho, bual, malvasia. From dry to sweet.

Open all wines 48 hours before you start on them. They very much need air, much more so than port.

https://www.leaandsandeman.co.uk/wine/M ... 33-00.html

https://www.waitrosecellar.com/portugue ... 5-year-old

https://www.waitrosecellar.com/port-she ... ual-535341

https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/p/491 ... ia-madeira

You can't do better than these for the money. They all have a 'rancio' character at varying levels. The sweeter ones are not as sweet as ruby port. Quite high levels of VA are the norm.

All of them are easily good for 3-6 months after opening. I have never had one last longer because I've always drunk 'em by then.

There's also tinta negra mole, terrantez, b**tardo, moscatel. TNM rarely makes interesting wine (occasional notable exceptions but not in this price bracket). The other three are not daily drinkers unless you are a plutocrat, they are produced in incredibly tiny quantities. [Moscatel does not last in bottle after opening so long as the others, oddly enough. I have noticed degradation after as little as 48-72 hours.]

Next step up is the 20yr olds.

After that, vintage designated wines (coheita/vintage/frasqueira/solera).

Great madeira can last for, in the human sphere of comprehension, ever (I have had 200 year old wine which was superb; but also some that was not). For older stuff the sky is the limit on prices. Probably 50% of all of the wines for which I have paid more than £100 a bottle are madeiras, and 100% of those for which I have paid over £400.

Very old madeira is very heavily faked. Lots of temptingly empty bottes hanging around that get refilled. Buy it with extreme caution, especially at auction.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

Post by Glenn E. »

I will add that any of the Rare Wine Company Historic Series are good wines and, at least in my opinion, worthy of their prices. In the US I can get the New York Malmsey for $50 and it is comparable to (or often better than) 15-year old Malmseys/Malvasias, at least for my taste.

I don't know if you have access to the RWC wines in the UK, though, since they are based in California.
All of them are easily good for 3-6 months after opening. I have never had one last longer because I've always drunk 'em by then.
I have a RWC New York Malmsey that I have deliberately left open and unconsumed in my dining room. The last time someone who could be called a Madeira expert tasted it blind, they came very close to identifying it and then guessed that it had been open about 3 months. At that time it had been open 10 years. (It has now been open for 12.) There is very little left in the bottle now - probably less than a single proper pour - so I have to be very careful who I let taste it less the experiment end. I do have 4 other bottles of nicer Madeira that are following in its footsteps, but they have years to go to catch up. They were all opened in 2016, so only 5 years into the experiment.

Madeira is the sturdiest wine you will ever taste. I always have a bottle open (not counting the experiments) because it never goes bad, and sometimes I just want one glass of something to drink.
Last edited by Glenn E. on 23:23 Fri 03 Sep 2021, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

Post by winesecretary »

postscript: this may all sound very prescriptive, but I don't mean it to be; I just want to save you a lot of time and disappointment and money (30 years of practice...). Average to poor madeira is mostly a profoundly disheartening experience. Good madeira is life enhancing to a significant degree and the above are quite sufficient for such life enhancement; my father drank a small glass of the H&H 15 year old Verdelho every morning at 1100 for 25 years and he considered it worth every penny. Great madeira is a different kettle of fish and can be genuinely mind-bending.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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winesecretary wrote: 23:04 Fri 03 Sep 2021 I have rarely had a madeira less than a 15 year old varietal designation (which does not have to be 15, but does have to conform to a style and intensity) of which it is worth drinking a second glass. The current Barbeito 10 yo Sercial below is a rare and excellent exception.

...

Don't buy anything without a grape designated on the label. Trust me on this. Your classic four are sercial, verdelho, bual, malvasia. From dry to sweet.

Open all wines 48 hours before you start on them. They very much need air, much more so than port.

...

Great madeira can last for, in the human sphere of comprehension, ever (I have had 200 year old wine which was superb; but also some that was not). For older stuff the sky is the limit on prices. Probably 50% of all of the wines for which I have paid more than £100 a bottle are madeiras, and 100% of those for which I have paid over £400.

Very old madeira is very heavily faked. Lots of temptingly empty bottes hanging around that get refilled. Buy it with extreme caution, especially at auction.
Thank you for the tips, especially around labelling. Obviously I'll have to get used to a new nomenclature!
winesecretary wrote: 23:04 Fri 03 Sep 2021
There's also tinta negra mole, terrantez, b**tardo, moscatel. TNM rarely makes interesting wine (occasional notable exceptions but not in this price bracket). The other three are not daily drinkers unless you are a plutocrat, they are produced in incredibly tiny quantities. [Moscatel does not last in bottle after opening so long as the others, oddly enough. I have noticed degradation after as little as 48-72 hours.]
My wife and I grabbed two bottles of Moscatel de Setubal on our way through the Lisbon airport on a whim, and fell in love with those as well. It was only after two years of searching here in the US that I was able to find another bottle - we haven't opened it yet. With our two original bottles, we got through them in just a few days, but they were definitely changing by then, so I can definitely see that they are more of an "event drink"
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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Glenn E. wrote: 23:17 Fri 03 Sep 2021 I will add that any of the Rare Wine Company Historic Series are good wines and, at least in my opinion, worthy of their prices. In the US I can get the New York Malmsey for $50 and it is comparable to (or often better than) 15-year old Malmseys/Malvasias, at least for my taste.
Thank you for the pointer! I will have to see if Rare Wine Company will ship to Pennsylvania (this is always my biggest hurdle to acquiring wines...). Currently, the only two brands available in the state's liquor stores are H&H (special order only) and HM Borges (sometimes on shelves).
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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winesecretary wrote: 23:21 Fri 03 Sep 2021 postscript: this may all sound very prescriptive, but I don't mean it to be; I just want to save you a lot of time and disappointment and money (30 years of practice...). Average to poor madeira is mostly a profoundly disheartening experience. Good madeira is life enhancing to a significant degree and the above are quite sufficient for such life enhancement; my father drank a small glass of the H&H 15 year old Verdelho every morning at 1100 for 25 years and he considered it worth every penny. Great madeira is a different kettle of fish and can be genuinely mind-bending.
Not prescriptive at all! Advice like this is helpful when diving into a new arena
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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Following similar advice here after that Blandy’s tasting last year, I decided I would buy a decent bottle of verdelho or terrantez to drink slowly, a glass at a time. I chose a 1994 D’Oliveiras verdelho frasqueira which I have really been enjoying, very widely spaced apart.

If you like the Moscatel de Setubal, do keep an eye out for the Douro version. Not many places make it: Quinta do Portal and Neipoort come to mind, but I’ve enjoyed it the few times I’ve tried it. I also think that whilst most Moscatel de Setubal is bottled pretty young (and so won’t last that long when open), it is sometimes aged in barrel before bottling. I’d expect that those would last a bit longer once open, like a tawny Port. (And, for that mind, have you thought about drinking more tawnies if you are struggling to get through a bottle of vintage before it turns?).

Also—and forgive this deviation miles from the purpose of the thread—since you obviously interested in sweet / fortified Portuguese wines generally, do try some Carcavelos if you ever see it. It’s a fascinating historic experience if nothing else!
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slateshalehead
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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JacobH wrote: 17:23 Sat 04 Sep 2021 If you like the Moscatel de Setubal, do keep an eye out for the Douro version. Not many places make it: Quinta do Portal and Neipoort come to mind, but I’ve enjoyed it the few times I’ve tried it.
You know, I didn't realize there was a difference, and looking at the bottles I just recently bought now, it is a Moscatel de Duoro, not de Setubal. I figured it was just a curious American marketing change! What are the main differences?
JacobH wrote: 17:23 Sat 04 Sep 2021
(And, for that mind, have you thought about drinking more tawnies if you are struggling to get through a bottle of vintage before it turns?).
Yes, I should have been clearer. We drink both rubies and tawnies as "daily drinkers" and leave the vintage port for special occasions. But with a limited number of rubies and tawnies regularly accessible to me, that can get repetitive, and I am looking to expand my horizons.
JacobH wrote: 17:23 Sat 04 Sep 2021
Also—and forgive this deviation miles from the purpose of the thread—since you obviously interested in sweet / fortified Portuguese wines generally, do try some Carcavelos if you ever see it. It’s a fascinating historic experience if nothing else!
Thank you for the suggestion, I will keep my eyes open! We do very much like the fortified wines from the region, so Carcavelos will be on our list!
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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Moscatel de Setúbal and Moscatel do Douro are the same grape, vinified in similar ways but grown in different parts of Portugal.

Serious suggestion: consider buying your daily drinkers as half bottles. Most good Ruby Port and tawny Port and very many LBVs are available in that format. Bin27, for example, in a half bottle will last a week if kept in the fridge once opened.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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Ah, you're in Pennsylvania! that does cause particular problems. but, I've just looked at the FWGS website and you're in luck - they doe carry some of the Borges higher end wines, and they're on clearance too, at prices we would envy.

Borges Verdelho 15 year old
Borges Malaysia 20 year old
Borges Colheita Bual 1995
Borges Colheita Malvasia 1998

Borges are a tiny production Portuguese-owned maker, and the wines at this level and above are truly excellent.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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Alex Bridgeman wrote: 23:34 Sat 04 Sep 2021 Serious suggestion: consider buying your daily drinkers as half bottles. Most good Ruby Port and tawny Port and very many LBVs are available in that format. Bin27, for example, in a half bottle will last a week if kept in the fridge once opened.
The other trick I used to do was, when I opened a bottle, I’d decant half immediately (including sediment) into a half bottle which I’d fill to the brim and then keep in the fridge. A screw-top or a flip top bottle is much better than one with a cork for this since you don’t have the problem of the pneumatic force from the compressed air trying to push the cork back out. I thought they could keep a reasonably long time this way. These days, I use a Coravin which avoids the problem altogether.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

Post by Glenn E. »

winesecretary wrote: 09:11 Sun 05 Sep 2021 Borges Malvasia 20 year old

Borges are a tiny production Portuguese-owned maker, and the wines at this level and above are truly excellent.
I have had the full range (10, 15, 20, 30) of Borges Malvasias on many occasions, and agree that they are excellent. I do prefer the heavier and sweeter D'Oliveiras style, but that's just me. AFAIK D'Oliveiras only makes 15 year olds (for around $55), but of course they have great stocks of older year-dated wines. The 1989 Malvasia is superb, but that's a $150+ bottle in the US.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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Alex Bridgeman wrote: 23:34 Sat 04 Sep 2021 Moscatel de Setúbal and Moscatel do Douro are the same grape, vinified in similar ways but grown in different parts of Portugal.

Serious suggestion: consider buying your daily drinkers as half bottles. Most good Ruby Port and tawny Port and very many LBVs are available in that format. Bin27, for example, in a half bottle will last a week if kept in the fridge once opened.
Thank you for the clarification! As far as half-bottles, most of the time I am lucky to find any bottle at all... although decanting is certainly an idea!
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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winesecretary wrote: 09:11 Sun 05 Sep 2021 Ah, you're in Pennsylvania! that does cause particular problems. but, I've just looked at the FWGS website and you're in luck - they doe carry some of the Borges higher end wines, and they're on clearance too, at prices we would envy.

Borges Verdelho 15 year old
Borges Malaysia 20 year old
Borges Colheita Bual 1995
Borges Colheita Malvasia 1998

Borges are a tiny production Portuguese-owned maker, and the wines at this level and above are truly excellent.
Thanks for the vote of confidence of these! With most FWGS items, they are only available in limited stores, so I will have to see if any are close by. They have a 2011 Ferreira for $50, I picked up two bottles but had to drive just over two hours round-trip to pick it up. No shipping for less common items or clearances!
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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JacobH wrote: 10:08 Sun 05 Sep 2021
Alex Bridgeman wrote: 23:34 Sat 04 Sep 2021 Serious suggestion: consider buying your daily drinkers as half bottles. Most good Ruby Port and tawny Port and very many LBVs are available in that format. Bin27, for example, in a half bottle will last a week if kept in the fridge once opened.
The other trick I used to do was, when I opened a bottle, I’d decant half immediately (including sediment) into a half bottle which I’d fill to the brim and then keep in the fridge. A screw-top or a flip top bottle is much better than one with a cork for this since you don’t have the problem of the pneumatic force from the compressed air trying to push the cork back out. I thought they could keep a reasonably long time this way. These days, I use a Coravin which avoids the problem altogether.
A very good idea! I will have to see if I can find half-sized glass bottles available
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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Alex Bridgeman wrote: 23:34 Sat 04 Sep 2021 Moscatel de Setúbal and Moscatel do Douro are the same grape, vinified in similar ways but grown in different parts of Portugal.
Just saw this.

Alex, I think you'll find that Setúbal uses Moscatel Graúdo (a.k.a., Muscat of Alexandria) or Moscatel Roxo (a mutant, pinkish-coloured strain), while Favaios (Douro) uses Moscatel Galego (a.k.a., Muscat à Petit Grains Blanc).
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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I bought a copy of Alex Liddell’s (of “Port Wine Quintas of the Douro” fame) book from 2014 called “Madeira: The Mid-Atlantic Wine”, published by Hurst & Co just before Christmas which I finally got around to reading. It is extremely good and I would highly recommend it. It sets out the extremely messy and long history of the island’s wine and also digs into some of the awkward facts that the shippers don’t want you to know about. For example, whilst i knew that the regulation was problematic with usual issues like a bottle of Sercial not having to be exclusively Sercial; I didn’t realise there was a huge amount of non-vitis vinifera American table grapes grown on the island, which (at least until 1986) could find their way into Madeira officially. And perhaps unofficially thereafter. It was also interesting to see how much the trade collapsed from the high points in the 19th Century and how precarious an industry it is today, especially compared to Port.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

Post by Glenn E. »

JacobH wrote: 19:24 Tue 21 Mar 2023 For example, whilst i knew that the regulation was problematic with usual issues like a bottle of Sercial not having to be exclusively Sercial
That's pretty common in the wine industry, actually. In the US the normal limit is that at least 75% must be the as-labeled grape variety, but there are exceptions that allow it to be as low as 51%.
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Re: Madeira for Beginners

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Glenn E. wrote: 20:01 Tue 21 Mar 2023
JacobH wrote: 19:24 Tue 21 Mar 2023 For example, whilst i knew that the regulation was problematic with usual issues like a bottle of Sercial not having to be exclusively Sercial
That's pretty common in the wine industry, actually. In the US the normal limit is that at least 75% must be the as-labeled grape variety, but there are exceptions that allow it to be as low as 51%.
Yes: that was what I meant by “usual issues”. That said, I think having a rule that allows a single-varietal wine to be a blend would be quite surprising to most consumers. A tolerance might be fine (say >95%) but I think most people would be a little surprised if their blanc de blanc sparkling wine was actually a quarter pinot noir!
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