Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Anything to do with Port.
Post Reply
User avatar
nac
Fonseca 1980
Posts: 1808
Joined: 14:21 Fri 16 Dec 2016
Location: Kent & London
Contact:

Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by nac »

New release (today?) - https://www.taylor.pt/en/port-wine/very-very-old-port

No prices yet, but probably not going to be a bargain...
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Glenn E. »

With a decanter and fancy wood box... I fear you are correct, it's not going to be a bargain...

Then again, when is a new release from Taylor ever a bargain?
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Graham’s 1948
Posts: 14880
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Fenwick's were the first to get an offer into my inbox. They have priced it at £350 per bottle - so roughly the same price as the Sandeman 50yo.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
User avatar
Doggett
Morgan 1991
Posts: 1188
Joined: 17:40 Sun 20 Sep 2015
Location: Weymouth
Contact:

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Doggett »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 16:54 Tue 27 Sep 2022 Fenwick's were the first to get an offer into my inbox. They have priced it at £350 per bottle - so roughly the same price as the Sandeman 50yo.
Considering the packaging etc, if the juice is proportionally better than the 50YO then it IS a bargain… in relative terms.
User avatar
nac
Fonseca 1980
Posts: 1808
Joined: 14:21 Fri 16 Dec 2016
Location: Kent & London
Contact:

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by nac »

The Taylor at £350 from Fenwick's appears to be the Platinum Jubilee tawny? I'd be quite surprised if this new release is anywhere close to that price.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Glenn E. »

The new VVO/MMV category is also commonly referred to has the 80+ category, so I'd be pretty shocked if anyone priced their products in it at £350.

Mourao's 2 products are (IIRC) over $2000 each. They're also reportedly 140 (tawny) and 130 (white) years old, but that's what this category is for.
Glenn Elliott
Bertie3000
Cockburn’s Special Reserve
Posts: 41
Joined: 11:28 Sat 30 Oct 2021

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Bertie3000 »

The Taylor’s VVOP will be presented in a bespoke decanter and an elegant luxury wooden case. Only 3,000 bottles have been produced, and will be made available in specialist retailers with an RSP of £750.

https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2022/ ... awny-port/
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Glenn E. »

That's... quite reasonable! I was honestly expecting something over £1000.

Still... that's probably too pricey for me, at least without having tasted it first.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
uncle tom
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3518
Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Near Saffron Walden, England

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by uncle tom »

I would surmise that these are being primarily crated up for the nouveau riche in China, who usually have a sweet tooth but also tend to be tannin averse. And if they can command a great price, then the very best of luck to them.

However as a UK investment prospect, I would advise no - the secondary market is singularly brutal when it comes to tawnies, even though the good ones do mellow and improve significantly with time.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
User avatar
Doggett
Morgan 1991
Posts: 1188
Joined: 17:40 Sun 20 Sep 2015
Location: Weymouth
Contact:

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Doggett »

uncle tom wrote: 19:32 Thu 29 Sep 2022 I would surmise that these are being primarily crated up for the nouveau riche in China, who usually have a sweet tooth but also tend to be tannin averse. And if they can command a great price, then the very best of luck to them.

However as a UK investment prospect, I would advise no - the secondary market is singularly brutal when it comes to tawnies, even though the good ones do mellow and improve significantly with time.
Are they not also aimed at the new appetite for quality tawny Port wherever. They are obviously expensive with small bottlings, but it seems part of a strategy to showcase the range of aged tawnies and Colheitas across the market. It gives the impression of value for the 40YO and new 50YO bottles when you can point to the premium bottles on the market at £750 and into the thousands of ££. I don’t think they are aimed at investors or to be traded on the secondary market. More so at collectors and people with deep pockets that want to try what is reported to be the best of the best. It would be interesting to ascertain what proportion are sold in the Far East. I am sure a good amount as there is lots of money in those markets, but I would have thought the main volumes would be sold in Europe and the US.

They may not be Ports I can afford or that are aimed at me but as long as the provenance and quality is there I think that the Producers should be celebrated for producing products for all parts of the market, from the basic reserve ports through to these premium Tawnies and the super cuvée VPs that we have seen enter the market over the last couple of decades to try and compete with Nacional.
User avatar
JacobH
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3300
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by JacobH »

I presume most of these are not really intended to be drunk but rather collected like those expensive single-malt Scotchs and the like, although it wouldn’t surprise me if we see a non-limited edition one in the near future which aims to be something like the Remy-Martin Louis XIII (i.e. very fancy packaging; very expensive; but available to buy in most upmarket bars); probably when they have enough stock to let them settle on a blend.

Does anyone know how old this Port is supposed to be, roughly? Is it 80+ years?
Image
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Glenn E. »

JacobH wrote: 09:12 Fri 30 Sep 2022 Does anyone know how old this Port is supposed to be, roughly? Is it 80+ years?
My understanding of the category is that it is "the same" as 10-20-30-40-50 meaning that the Port matches the profile of an 80+ year old Tawny Port, but is not actually regulated regarding what the contents must be.

Regarding the Taylor VVO specifically, I have no idea.
Glenn Elliott
PhilW
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3503
Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
Location: Near Cambridge, UK

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by PhilW »

Glenn E. wrote: 18:47 Fri 30 Sep 2022
JacobH wrote: 09:12 Fri 30 Sep 2022 Does anyone know how old this Port is supposed to be, roughly? Is it 80+ years?
My understanding of the category is that it is "the same" as 10-20-30-40-50 meaning that the Port matches the profile of an 80+ year old Tawny Port, but is not actually regulated regarding what the contents must be.

Regarding the Taylor VVO specifically, I have no idea.
Per this article announcing the new IVDP categories, the Very Very Old Tawny category is for >80yr tawnies; but of course as Glenn says, this is expected to relate to the profile being typical of such age rather than the actual age, per all the other existing categories.
User avatar
JacobH
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3300
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by JacobH »

Ah. Thank you very much. That makes it much clearer. As I’ve mentioned before, I think these old fashioned abbreviations are much less misleading than the “indications” of age on the 10-50 years; although I am pretty sure that when VVO was last regularly appeared on wine bottles, it wasn’t nearly as old as that!
Image
User avatar
nac
Fonseca 1980
Posts: 1808
Joined: 14:21 Fri 16 Dec 2016
Location: Kent & London
Contact:

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by nac »

Have just been offered some of this by C&B at £750 per bottle in bond. Apparently less than 50 bottles coming to the UK.

I’ve declined it, but if anyone is interested let me know and I’ll pass on the offer.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Glenn E. »

JacobH wrote: 10:28 Sun 02 Oct 2022 although I am pretty sure that when VVO was last regularly appeared on wine bottles, it wasn’t nearly as old as that!
This is just practice, not any kind of law or regulation, but just from the bottles that I've seen it seems like "old" is worth 20 years by itself, and then each "very" adds 20 years.

The Niepoort VV, for example, was something over 60 years old when it was bottled. There's an entire (purchased) cask at Barao de Vilar stenciled "VVVV" which is believed to be about 100 years old. There have been other examples, but right now they're not immediately coming to mind.

Somewhat amusingly, there are bottles of the "1947" Quinta do Junco labeled "VV", "VVV", and "VVVV". I put "1947" in quotes because that appears to be the bottling year, at least for some of the bottles, though it features prominently on the label and so might look like a vintage year. The blend was apparently only about 40 years old when bottled, which makes a counter-example to my theory as even "VV" would be too old for 40+ years.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
JacobH
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3300
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by JacobH »

Glenn E. wrote: 22:44 Mon 24 Oct 2022 This is just practice, not any kind of law or regulation, but just from the bottles that I've seen it seems like "old" is worth 20 years by itself, and then each "very" adds 20 years.

The Niepoort VV, for example, was something over 60 years old when it was bottled. There's an entire (purchased) cask at Barao de Vilar stenciled "VVVV" which is believed to be about 100 years old. There have been other examples, but right now they're not immediately coming to mind.

Somewhat amusingly, there are bottles of the "1947" Quinta do Junco labeled "VV", "VVV", and "VVVV". I put "1947" in quotes because that appears to be the bottling year, at least for some of the bottles, though it features prominently on the label and so might look like a vintage year. The blend was apparently only about 40 years old when bottled, which makes a counter-example to my theory as even "VV" would be too old for 40+ years.
This is all interesting. I’d really like to get a better grip on what non-Vintage Ports were available before the modern regulations came in.

The reason I am not sure that historically “VVO” meant 60+ years is the prices. For example, in this post Derek gives us a price list from 1961 which offers an “Old” tawny at 16/6; a “VVO” “Vintage Character” at 17/-; and a “Very Old Tawny” at 18/-. All of these are cheaper than the 11-year-old VPs they were also selling which were 22/- a bottle. I’d be surprised that in 1961 a 40-year-old tawny would cost less than an 11-year-old VP and so I wonder those older Ports were more like 20-year-olds which had been blended from lighter wines to give the impression of being much older than that.

That’s not to doubt that at some point in the past the convention of adding a “V” happened: I can well imagine that there was rampant label inflation before the modern regulations came in!
Image
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Glenn E. »

Remember also that wood-aged Port has only fairly recently gained enough popularity for prices to rise. (As recently as 10 years ago one could purchase a phenomenal 140-year old Madeira for less than $300, and 10 years before that it was closer to $100.) And that Brits have never been known for their love of the brown sticky stuff. So I'm not sure that old, British price lists are a great indicator of relative worth vs VP.

Though in those examples the prices are far enough out of kilter that it seems like something must be going on.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Graham’s 1948
Posts: 14880
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

nac wrote: 17:22 Mon 24 Oct 2022 Have just been offered some of this by C&B at £750 per bottle in bond. Apparently less than 50 bottles coming to the UK.

I’ve declined it, but if anyone is interested let me know and I’ll pass on the offer.
I had chance to try the two Very Old Tawnies from Taylor’s side by side a couple of weeks ago (the Platinum Blend and the 80+) together with the Golden Age (50yo).

The two VV Ports are both pretty special and distinctly different. I’ll try to post my notes on them this weekend.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Taylor's Very Very Old Port

Post by Glenn E. »

I look forward to your notes. I managed to score 3 bottles of the Platinum for what I thought was a fairly reasonable price.

I'm going to get to taste the Golden Age 50 next month, too. Now to line up a taste of the 80+...
Glenn Elliott
Post Reply