ThePortForum.com

Posted: **15:32 Sat 12 Aug 2023**

Port Forum,

I have a bottle of 1925 Taylor Fladgate & Yeatman Vargellas port. I am in search of any information about this bottle.

The bottle appears to be a Colheita (single vintage wood aged
Port..not a "Vintage Port") as it has a Selo (paper strip over the top)
that wasn't used until the late 1930's.

In advance thank you all for your information and feedback!

I will be adding more pictures.

Posted: **17:59 Sat 12 Aug 2023**

If genuine, very unusual!

• Hugh Barty-King, in The Salters’ Company 1394–1994, page 126, describes the damage to the wine stocks after Salters’ Hall was bombed on 10 May 1941. Happily, “The 50 dozen Taylors 1925 appeared sound”.

• It is also mentioned in various official sources of Taylor themselves.

See pp473–4 of the first edition of Port Vintages, or p518 of the second edition.

Sources suggest bottle aged, so yours might be same but late bottled, or different.

Posted: **18:00 Sat 12 Aug 2023**

Hi and welcome to

and a very interesting bottle you have.

The Taylor Vargellas 1925 is a vintage port listed with evidence in "The Book" (by jdaw1 on this site). I'm assuming that as the owner of such a venerable bottle, you probably know of/about the Quinta da Vargellas vineyard (here and here for some initial background just in case - note the spelling, no "i").

Regarding the selo, while you are correct in saying that this bottle (if bottled circa 1927) would have been bottled before Selos were in use, my understanding is that if bottles were bottled in Portugal, then kept in their cellars, and the subsequently later released to the market (which happens with many older vintages, often including recorking) that they will have a new selo applied at that time if they did not have one already. Assuming that is correct, it would explain how your bottle could have a selo and still be a 1925 vintage port.

Posted: **18:30 Sat 12 Aug 2023**

Thank you for the reply, I did edit my spelling error

Again thank very much I appreciate you taking the time to reply!

Posted: **18:35 Sat 12 Aug 2023**

I am 99% confident the bottle is genuine, a close friend of mine had the bottle given to him while traveling, the bottle was passed on to me some 13-14 years ago.

Posted: **08:00 Sun 13 Aug 2023**

The white capped T-cork and white capsule remind me of a Fonseca from the 1930's that some of us tasted at the RAF Club many years ago. I think it might have been an early example of LBV.

Posted: **12:46 Sun 13 Aug 2023**

Thank you for your post!

Posted: **13:55 Mon 14 Aug 2023**

Interesting looking further at the additional photos you've added to your post.
From what I can see currently, it does indeed look like a T-stopper rather than driven cork, which as DRT mentioned makes it much less likely to be VP again; also the paper tape over the cap doesn't look like a normal port selo to me - would it be possible to post a couple of extra pics of the capsule/"selo"?

Posted: **14:06 Mon 14 Aug 2023**

PhilW wrote: ↑13:55 Mon 14 Aug 2023 Interesting looking further at the additional photos you've added to your post.
From what I can see currently, it does indeed look like a T-stopper rather than driven cork, which as DRT mentioned makes it much less likely to be VP again; also the paper tape over the cap doesn't look like a normal port selo to me - would it be possible to post a couple of extra pics of the capsule/"selo"?

Posted: **18:24 Mon 14 Aug 2023**

What type of collector would be interested in this bottle? Are there collectors that try to collect every year of a certain style of Port?

Thank you, Joe

Posted: **00:52 Tue 15 Aug 2023**

That does not appear to be the remnants of a Selo. Rather it appears to be an old tax stamp.

It also looks like the capsule has already been cut around the base of the t-cork.

Better pics are needed.

Posted: **08:09 Tue 15 Aug 2023**

Thanks for posting the extra pictures It's certainly an odd one, always interesting to (virtually) examine unusual old bottles.
Given the T-stopper, it's extremely unlikely to be VP, and as Andy has said, the paper strip is not a selo; it looks like a tax stamp (which might be consistent). The fact that the T-stopper looks to be disconnected from the remnants of capsule on bottle neck is a concern, but it does look original.
The tax stamp appears to only be present on one side, and I can't tell from the pictures whether it is intact or not, and hence whether the bottle might have had the contents drunk and the bottle refilled. Assuming not, then given the T-stopper, a colheita perhaps bottled relatively young seems most likely.

Posted: **13:45 Tue 15 Aug 2023**

I will add more quality pictures soon.

Posted: **15:07 Tue 15 Aug 2023**

I would say that although the seal looks like it's sliced open, on one side, the side with the tax stamp looks like it is fully intact. To me that would say that the bottle has not been opened and refilled because the logistics of doing so would necessitate the tax stamp being cut open as well.

Posted: **18:08 Tue 15 Aug 2023**

I agree, I have posted new pictures.

Posted: **22:57 Tue 15 Aug 2023**

I think there are too many questions about it for it to have market value, but it would be a very good buy-in to a Vargellas tasting.

Posted: **13:45 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

What would be the questions from someone with interest ?

Thank you, Joe

Posted: **15:43 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

Mike J. W. wrote: ↑15:07 Tue 15 Aug 2023 I would say that although the seal looks like it's sliced open, on one side, the side with the tax stamp looks like it is fully intact. To me that would say that the bottle has not been opened and refilled because the logistics of doing so would necessitate the tax stamp being cut open as well.

... unless the tax stamp was applied after the bottle was opened and re-closed.

It isn't clear to me that the capsule on the tax stamp side is intact. In fact it kind of looks to me like the bottle has been opened at some point, and was perhaps "re-sealed" using a tax stamp to attempt to cover up that it has been opened.

The t-stopper is curious to me regardless. Were they even using t-stoppers like that in those decades? Just sitting here without any reference, 1925 seems too old to have a t-stopper at all. But even if t-stoppers were in use that long ago, is there any way to tell what material the t-stopper is made of? (I.e. if plastic, that would be a huge red flag.)

Posted: **16:18 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

Regardless if it has been opened or not, there is obvious signs of seepage. But i can’t see the fill level.

One thing bothering me is the “R” on the label. I went back through old pics of their cellar and I think it means Reserva. Which I think would indicate a tawny of some type, based on some pics I have of other older stuff from them.

I don’t see any remains of an old Selo. Based on the typed label and not a formal label, as it appears to be the type used in-house, I’d suspect this was possibly given to someone from the company. Or was a sample that never got used.

Value is hard to say. What is the fill level? Where has it been stored it’s life? Etc? Odds are it’s drinkable but the quality highly uncertain.

Thank you for uploading more pics, quite fun analyzing.

Posted: **16:36 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

I’ve zoomed in on the stamp. I can make out some of what appears to be on it.

“Financas” = finances
“Portugal”
“Damoeda” = currency
“Casa” = house
“Minis…” (maybe Ministerio?) = ministry

Not sure what order they are supposed to be in. But maybe “Finances Casa Damoeda Portugal Ministero” ?

Posted: **16:44 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

The top of the green ruler is the fill level.

Posted: **16:44 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

The top of the green ruler is the fill level.

Posted: **17:18 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

I have reached out to Taylor Fladgate company directly, I will post their response.

Posted: **18:03 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

Vargellas wrote: ↑13:45 Wed 16 Aug 2023 What would be the questions from someone with interest ?

Thank you, Joe

A number of the questions have already been posed, at least indirectly. Others, set out below, would be (very) difficult to answer. Whatever the case:

1. Who gave the bottle to the friend who gave it to you, and where did the original source get it from - and roughly when?
2. During which temporal period was the tax seal in question used?
3. Were such tax seals used on port wine? I have seen such seals on bottles coming into my possession in Portugal, though off the top of my head only on still wines - both Portuguese and foreign, I believe from the 1960s and 1970s. (I would check for myself, save for being away from my cellar.)
4. Who applied tax seals in Portugal (i.e., retailers or producers)?
5. What is the capsule made from?
6. Is the capsule cut all the way around the base of the t-stopper? (Answering this query would necessitate steaming off the tax seal.)
7. What is the top of the t-stopper made from? Bakelite or a more modern plastic?
8. When were t-stoppers first used in the Douro?
9. What markings, if any, are on the bottom of the bottle?

If the bottle appeared nowadays at auction in Portugal, I would suspect immediately that it was likely a poor-quality fake given the presence of the tax seal, the unusual label and the use of a t-stopper. At best, I would take the view that the original contents had been removed, given the available photographic evidence pointing to the capsule being broken around the top of the t-stopper. In mitigation, in this case, I note that you have had the bottle for some time and that it was given to you by a trusted source, who (I gather) had it gifted to him. Fake bottles of port, which I see with increasing and depressing frequency in Portugal, are usually put together more artfully than that which is shown in the pictures you have so kindly posted.

Given the considerable uncertainty with respect to the authenticity of the bottle, or otherwise its contents, which together negate its monetary value, my suggestion is that you open the wine at your leisure. At that point, it ought to be clear whether what you were given is, indeed, of considerable age - be it some sort of (late-bottled) vintage or a colheita. If and when you do open the wine, please let us know what you discover. Suffice it to note that the readers of this forum, or at any rate a great many of us, enjoy mysteries of this nature - ideally arrived at with no (great) personal expenditure.

Posted: **18:04 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑16:36 Wed 16 Aug 2023 I’ve zoomed in on the stamp. I can make out some of what appears to be on it.

“Financas” = finances
“Portugal”
“Damoeda” = currency
“Casa” = house
“Minis…” (maybe Ministerio?) = ministry

Not sure what order they are supposed to be in. But maybe “Finances Casa Damoeda Portugal Ministero” ?

Good eye. It says "Ministério das Finanças Casa da Moeda Portugal".

"Ministério das Finanças" is the finance ministry. "Casa da Moeda" is roughly equivalent to the Royal Mint (but with some extra duties, like issuing these kinds of stamps).

Posted: **18:17 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

Thank you all for your your thoughts and expertise! I will forward along information as I receive it.

Is there a company/way to authenticate the bottle?

Fun trying to solve this mystery!

Posted: **19:43 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

Vargellas wrote:Thank you all for your your thoughts and expertise! I will forward along information as I receive it.

Is there a company/way to authenticate the bottle?

Fun trying to solve this mystery!

Some wine companies will allow you to mail them in to be examined. However, if it is deemed improper (fake, not authorized to be released outside the company, etc) they won’t return it. You’d have to contact The Fladgate Partnership and ask.

Posted: **20:03 Wed 16 Aug 2023**

Thank you!

Posted: **22:55 Fri 18 Aug 2023**

Joe,

What are you hoping to do with the bottle?

Given the significant peculiarities that have been discussed above, it’s value at auction is probably quite low.

However, you have generated lots of interest here to the extent (I suspect) that if you wanted to try a range of Ports of similar age you could probably use your bottle to get a seat at one of our tasting which had a theme of, say, Pre-War Ports.

Posted: **07:17 Sun 20 Aug 2023**

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑22:55 Fri 18 Aug 2023
However, you have generated lots of interest here to the extent (I suspect) that if you wanted to try a range of Ports of similar age you could probably use your bottle to get a seat at one of our tasting which had a theme of, say, Pre-War Ports.

Great suggestion Alex .... I'd be up for a seat if it goes this way along with my bottle of Gonzalez Byass '32

Posted: **12:11 Sun 20 Aug 2023**

For me the next step would be to find the value of the bottle, I am certainly open to having a seat at a tasting. I am more of a collector of wine, the best part of the wine collecting and tasting is opening a bottle with friends, like minded people!

Again thank you all for your input and passion!!!!!!!!!

Still waiting on a response from Taylor Fladgate.

Posted: **16:32 Mon 21 Aug 2023**

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑00:52 Tue 15 Aug 2023 That does not appear to be the remnants of a Selo. Rather it appears to be an old tax stamp.

It also looks like the capsule has already been cut around the base of the t-cork.

Better pics are needed.

I would love this to be a genuine original bottle - as a collector, 1925 is one of my missing vintages.

But the apparent break in the foil and the non-standard selo is ringing alarm bells.

From time to time crooks refill old bottles and try to pass them off as original. I'd need to know the history of this bottle and the origins of the duty stamp - or whatever it is - before accepting it as genuine.

Posted: **21:42 Mon 21 Aug 2023**

If someone made this as a fake bottle of Vintage Port they are the worst faker in history.

Those white capsules and t-corks were in use in the mid-war period. I suspect this is non-VP Port from the 1925 vintage, perhaps bottled before the official selo we know today was launched.

Posted: **07:33 Tue 22 Aug 2023**

I think the ‘it might be genuine because no-one would fake something this badly’ theory is a dangerous one. Ultimately it starts from the premise that one wants it to be genuine and then one creates a theory of history around it. It’s almost invariably the case that one fools oneself. Over the past 30 years I have seen this trip up even very knowledgeable collectors and dealers in the world of silver and of madeira wine. I even belonged to a dining club for 20 years which met to look at ‘debatable’ examples of both. It should be possible to work out whether or not this is genuine from first principles.

We know (it’s in Julian’s book) 1925 Vargellas was made.

Is it possible that any of it was bottled under stopper corks? Adrian B’s team will be able to answer that definitively, but I would have thought it unlikely.

Even if so, and even assuming the capsule stopper and tax stamp to be genuine and undamaged, about which there is a lively debate above, that still doesn’t mean that the somewhat rudimentary paper label (which is the only clue to the contents as opposed to the producer) is contemporaneous or correct. My view is that the sophistication of the stopper (which must mean it was bottled by Taylor’s rather than in England) is at odds with the simplicity of the label.

Posted: **20:33 Tue 22 Aug 2023**

I am impatiently waiting to hear back from Taylor Fladgate, I have emailed from their site as well as FB messenger with pictures etc...

Posted: **04:34 Wed 23 Aug 2023**

I tend to approach very old bottles now with the “it’s fake until proven real” mentality. I see absolutely nothing at all that leads me to believe this is fake.

As I mentioned before, the label appears to be a type used in-house. think current Sym bottles pulled from stocks without labels but they need one to identify it. So they slap a generic label that has the computer printer typed of what contents it is. You’ve probably all seen pics online of those. This label is consistent with that, just a diff company and from a long time ago.

Posted: **20:51 Thu 24 Aug 2023**

DRT wrote: ↑08:00 Sun 13 Aug 2023 The white capped T-cork and white capsule remind me of a Fonseca from the 1930's that some of us tasted at the RAF Club many years ago. I think it might have been an early example of LBV.

DRT wrote: ↑21:42 Mon 21 Aug 2023 If someone made this as a fake bottle of Vintage Port they are the worst faker in history.

Those white capsules and t-corks were in use in the mid-war period. I suspect this is non-VP Port from the 1925 vintage, perhaps bottled before the official selo we know today was launched.

winesecretary wrote: ↑07:33 Tue 22 Aug 2023 I think the ‘it might be genuine because no-one would fake something this badly’ theory is a dangerous one. Ultimately it starts from the premise that one wants it to be genuine and then one creates a theory of history around it. It’s almost invariably the case that one fools oneself.

I neglected to mention that the person who brought the white t-stoppered 1930's Fonseca to the tasting at the RAF Club was Adrian Bridge. I'm not entirely convinced I am fooling myself.

Posted: **20:52 Thu 24 Aug 2023**

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑04:34 Wed 23 Aug 2023I see absolutely nothing at all that leads me to believe this is fake.

I completely agree.

Posted: **22:18 Thu 24 Aug 2023**

DRT wrote: ↑20:51 Thu 24 Aug 2023
I neglected to mention that the person who brought the white t-stoppered 1930's Fonseca to the tasting at the RAF Club was Adrian Bridge. I'm not entirely convinced I am fooling myself.

Oof.

Posted: **23:05 Sat 26 Aug 2023**

Following some research and with help from Andy Velebil I can confirm that the tasting referred to above was Fonseca Guimaraens, and some Fonseca, Mon 04 April 2011 and the bottle with the white t-stopper was a Fonseca Guimaraens 1933.

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Posted: **23:18 Sat 26 Aug 2023**

And so there is no confusion. The ‘33 has a modern Selo and new label because Adrian Bridge pulled it from the company cellar, had the shiner bottle cleaned, new capsule and label applied specifically for that tasting. I still retain the t-cork in my possession.

Posted: **23:24 Sat 26 Aug 2023**

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑23:18 Sat 26 Aug 2023 And so there is no confusion. The ‘33 has a modern Selo and new label because Adrian Bridge pulled it from the company cellar, had the shiner bottle cleaned, new capsule and label applied specifically for that tasting. I still retain the t-cork in my possession.

Correct. From memory, Adrian very kindly arranged for a dozen or so bottles from that line-up to be shipped from the company cellar in Vila Nova de Gaia to the tasting via their UK distributor Mentzendorff, hence the labels and selos.

Posted: **06:51 Sun 27 Aug 2023**

With the greatest of respect, Dave and Andy, you are rather proving my point. From your deep knowledge you are creating a story/rationale in which it is possible for the contents of this bottle to be 1925 Vargellas. I still think that’s unlikely.

- I am not aware of a single documented pre war example of a T-Stoppered Taylor Vintage or Single Quinta port.

- nor are there any on VPID.

- that a completely separate (then and until 1949) port house, Fonseca, bottled some single quinta port before the war with T stoppers shows no more than it is theoretically possible for such port to exist with such stoppers.

- in these circumstances I argue that the likelihood remains this is a 1930s or later bottling (note, in passing, the much greater sophistication of the stopper in the Taylor bottle than the Fonseca example, despite the presumably rather earlier date) of something from Taylor; with a later- applied paper label to the bottle giving it a romantic history.

By saying these things I cast no aspersions on the current owner of the bottle who has received it and asked our advice about it in good faith.

But anyway, Adrian B has been applied to for comment so I await that elucidation.

Posted: **07:25 Sun 27 Aug 2023**

DRT wrote: ↑08:00 Sun 13 Aug 2023The white capped T-cork and white capsule remind me of a Fonseca from the 1930's that some of us tasted at the RAF Club many years ago.

I don't think I have made any claim about the 1925 other than to say it reminded me of a similar bottle from the 1930's.

Dave

Posted: **09:24 Sun 27 Aug 2023**

I take your point

Posted: **13:26 Sun 27 Aug 2023**

winesecretary wrote:With the greatest of respect, Dave and Andy, you are rather proving my point. From your deep knowledge you are creating a story/rationale in which it is possible for the contents of this bottle to be 1925 Vargellas. I still think that’s unlikely.

- I am not aware of a single documented pre war example of a T-Stoppered Taylor Vintage or Single Quinta port.

- nor are there any on VPID.

- that a completely separate (then and until 1949) port house, Fonseca, bottled some single quinta port before the war with T stoppers shows no more than it is theoretically possible for such port to exist with such stoppers.

- in these circumstances I argue that the likelihood remains this is a 1930s or later bottling (note, in passing, the much greater sophistication of the stopper in the Taylor bottle than the Fonseca example, despite the presumably rather earlier date) of something from Taylor; with a later- applied paper label to the bottle giving it a romantic history.

By saying these things I cast no aspersions on the current owner of the bottle who has received it and asked our advice about it in good faith.

But anyway, Adrian B has been applied to for comment so I await that elucidation.

We are not creating a story/rationale. It is you that has asserted its contents are fake with no factual basis other than your misguided thoughts.

Just because you are not aware of what was done almost 100 yrs ago doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

It remains very possible this was later bottled. That was very common as there was no regulation until after WW2 on when one had to bottle VP. If the contents are indeed a VP.

Posted: **14:43 Sun 27 Aug 2023**

There are zero bottles of pre-war Taylor’s vintage or single quinta port with a stopper cork known to anyone who has deigned to look at this thread. I argue that one can come to the preliminary conclusion, develop a theory, make an inference, or hold a suspicion, by virtue of the absence of known data points from that era, that the bottle is not what it professes to be. It is, because I am making an inference from an absence of data not the presence of data, quite possible that I am wrong.

Posted: **14:56 Sun 27 Aug 2023**

winesecretary wrote: ↑14:43 Sun 27 Aug 2023 There are zero bottles of pre-war Taylor’s vintage or single quinta port with a stopper cork known to anyone who has deigned to look at this thread. I argue that one can come to the preliminary conclusion, develop a theory, make an inference, or hold a suspicion, by virtue of the absence of known data points from that era, that the bottle is not what it professes to be. It is, because I am making an inference from an absence of data not the presence of data, quite possible that I am wrong.

Having been in the private TFP company cellar that is not open to the public, I can assure you there are many odd and old bottles of things you wouldn't see anywhere else or know exists. Those of us who've been historians of our favorite beverage have long ago learned not to assume something doesn't exists because we've never seen it. I suggest you do the same.

Posted: **16:55 Sun 27 Aug 2023**

Andy, let’s leave it. We’re not going to agree on this.

Posted: **16:21 Sun 03 Sep 2023**

No word yet from Taylor Fladgate! I did speak to the buyer at Martignetti, he gave me some background on the bottle. Fredrick said only Taylor could authenticate the bottle. I will keep reaching out.

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1925 Taylor Fladgate & Yeatman Vargellas port

1925 Taylor Fladgate & Yeatman Vargellas port

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