ThePortForum.com

Just a thought.

If you have a great and special old Port, you presumably hope to drink most of it at its prime. There is definitely a window, some hours after its open, when the complicated structure, and full sensual taste is at its height.

However, and its just a personal opinion, I dont think the deterioration over the next few days is that significant. Yes it's often a tad flatter, and some of the wisps of flavours may have gone, but I still find it scrumptious.

I would have to say that in my tasting endeavours, mouth-feel is a priority, which may explain my thoughts if lots of you disagree.
So what are your thoughts? Do some of you think deterioration is quick and significant?

Alan

Sometimes. A Taylor 1927 was not ready at D+0, at its peak at D+15 minutes, and a lot weaker at D+1 hour. But most ports can hold up for more than six hours.

Julian,

apologies , upon re-reading, I realise how my post sounds. I wasn't on about ancient drinks, like your T20. I was thinking more about 50's and 60's, etc. Drinks that are old (In years) but in their prime.

Alan

Conky wrote:I was thinking more about 50's and 60's, etc. Drinks that are old (In years) but in their prime.

Assuming a port is "in its prime" (and personally i think that's the 15-30 yr range, rather than 50+), I prefer it with those wisps of flavor. I'm often disappointed to find that, having opened a port, the wisps and the alcohol disappear in unison. I'm happier taking the heat to experience all that I can out of the port.

This mentality of urgency could be brought on by the expense (and somewhat limited quantity) of aged port in my collection, but only getting to a big tasting will reveal that

SushiNorth wrote:

Conky wrote:I was thinking more about 50's and 60's, etc. Drinks that are old (In years) but in their prime.

Assuming a port is "in its prime" (and personally i think that's the 15-30 yr range, rather than 50+), I prefer it with those wisps of flavor. I'm often disappointed to find that, having opened a port, the wisps and the alcohol disappear in unison. I'm happier taking the heat to experience all that I can out of the port.

This mentality of urgency could be brought on by the expense (and somewhat limited quantity) of aged port in my collection, but only getting to a big tasting will reveal that

really? I don't like the harsh bite at all. It's all about proper balance. Like my dry reds, I don't like tannins and I prefer my wines very smooth. So I tend to aim for a longer decant if possible

I personally take the view that most vintage ports are drunk far too soon after decanting, and that most of the lore regarding deterioration in decanter can be put down to the wine getting too warm.

Decanters that are kept 'cellar cool' will normally show well for up to a week.

That said, immature wines do not seem to evolve much in decanter, while those that initially appear to have slipped past their plateau of maturity can often spring surprises, sometimes as much as four days down the line.

Some wines can appear very poor after a few hours, resulting in poor reviews, but then blossom gloriously after a couple of days. Graham '77 has done that to me before, and I shall be popping another bottle in a day or two to see if it does it again!

Tom

Hmm, i've smith woodhouse 77 and warres 77, my oldest bottles after the 74 colheita (which technically isn't that old as it was bottled recently). At 30 years they are definitely due for drinking, but as they are my only old bottles I've been wary of waiting too long and winding up with a large amount of "shoulda-drunk-it-yesterday" wine. As there are 2 SWs and only one Warres, should I open the SW and split it into two decanters, one for day 1+2, the second for day 3? Have you had specific timing luck with either of those two?

SushiNorth wrote:Hmm, i've smith woodhouse 77 and warres 77, my oldest bottles after the 74 colheita (which technically isn't that old as it was bottled recently). At 30 years they are definitely due for drinking, but as they are my only old bottles I've been wary of waiting too long and winding up with a large amount of "shoulda-drunk-it-yesterday" wine. As there are 2 SWs and only one Warres, should I open the SW and split it into two decanters, one for day 1+2, the second for day 3? Have you had specific timing luck with either of those two?

viewtopic.php?p=269

would be an interesting experiment. Uncle tom seems to have indicated that it's hot when just popped.

I don't have any recent notes on SW77 but I popped a Warre last December, noting that it was 'unremarkable for 48hrs, but then perfect'

I scored it 9-9, so no rush to drink.

Tom

My own tatste and experience favour much longer decanting than experts usually recommend. Having said that, last weekend I broached a bottle of Taylor 83, an underrated wine, I think, which 12 hours after decanting hit me with an unpleasant tannic smash. That abated quickly.

The second night, it was much fuller and richer. But I failed to keep enough back for a third night's tasting. That is a problem. Too often does temptation overwhelm the experimental urge. At least one need not feel guilty at letting a fine wine decline into an undignified old age.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "Correct decanting time". The variation in how VPs open up and develop in the decanter is enormous and the concept of a one-size-fits-all approach is ridiculous and, I believe, unhelpful to the uninitiated.

I do enjoy sampling a VP over an extended period to see how it develops and often look back at my own notes and those of others here who do similar to try to predict the optimum decanting period for a particular wine. But even that doesn't always work as other factors come into play such as how I'm feeling on a particular day, what the temperature is in the house, what I have been eating, whether or not I have drunk something else that evening, etc, etc, etc.

To me the most obvious changes that I can detect over an extended period are the mouthfeel and the levels of integration of fruit, alcohol and tannin. As for the whispy bits, I think these are so suseptable to other factors surrounding each tasting experience that it is difficult to be certain that it is actually the wine that has significantly changed as opposed to one or more of those external factors. Just think of how those tastes change if you sip a wine, eat some cheese and then sip the same wine again. The wine hasn't changed, but your mouth has.

The only way to be sure is to invent time travel, but that is a whole other thread.

Derek

Derek T. wrote:I don't think there is such a thing as a "Correct decanting time". ... I do enjoy sampling a VP over an extended period to see how it develops

There could also be a fundamental issue with how wine is drunk in europe vs america. Here, wine is often judged by the occasion. Big occasion, fancy wine. Casual occasion, casual wine. But wine is on the table by choice, rather than standard custom. This could affect how we handle opening a bottle of port -- without an occasion (fancy or casual), why open it? And if there is an occasion, it exists at a particular point in time so the bottle must be opened in a way that coincides. This is a very different attitude than the more european: "there will be a bottle on the table, pick which of the ones open we should drink from." "Well, the port's not ready yet... " "Rioja it is."

I think this attitude difference is in part represented here...

Derek T. wrote:other factors come into play such as how I'm feeling on a particular day, what the temperature is in the house, what I have been eating, whether or not I have drunk something else that evening, etc, etc, etc.

I totally agree that all those things affect flavor and decanting time, but they also reflect a more casual and custom-focused approach to having wine around.

Anyway, backing away from either-side-of-the-pond thoughts...

Derek T. wrote:To me the most obvious changes that I can detect over an extended period are the mouthfeel and the levels of integration of fruit, alcohol and tannin. As for the whispy bits, I think these are so suseptable to other factors ...

I agree, and have found the wisps are also influenced by suggestions of other tasters and foods from earlier in the day/caught in teeth . I think the only way to open a port for a party may just be to take an edcated guess at decant time and open it. This would likely be easier if I had a single weekend guest (rather than a lot of single-evening revelers), as we could easily have some of the port to celebrate, then celebrate again the next evening with +24 on the port.

(and this post marks my ranking to the LBV i've got in stock!)

O & E,

You should have read my TN from last June before tackling that T83 - these were my closing words:

Another day and this wine keeps getting better - much better - but who would normally wait this long?

Anyone who tackled this wine soon after decanting would dismiss it as a disaster...

OK - if you've got a case - or just a bottle or three - go get a fat felt pen and write on the case or label:

"Four days decanting time required"

Tom

SushiNorth wrote:...the more european: "there will be a bottle on the table, pick which of the ones open we should drink from." "Well, the port's not ready yet... " "Rioja it is."

Interesting thought, one which I probably take for granted as I operate in exactly the way you've just described. If left to ourselves, the two of us will get through 2-3 bottles of wine in a week.

A friend dropped in the other day and decided to stay for dinner. When offered a glass of wine, her reply was "Only if you've got a bottle open."

We did have - she had a choice from Camel Valley Vineyard Bacchus 2006, Moet & Chandon NV (bottled 2004), Chateau Musar 1996 or Morgan 1991. All were open and in the fridge to prevent rapid oxidation.

I noticed on this weekend's 80 Warre and 80 Taylor Magnum, both wines were "easier drinking" the next day. We only drank about 60% of the magnum, so there was enough both nights. The Taylor intensity cooled down, but was a softer, lovely port. The Warre's fruit more pronounced actually and had less heat.

I hate to see a port fall apart as I wanted to wait 10+ hours decanting. If it is from the 20 century, I think the first you could use this as a general guide:

20's - 2 hours decant max
30's - 3 hours decant max...
70's - 7 hours decant max...

You get the idea. Sure there a ton of exceptions, but how can we give specific answers to such general questions?

20's - 2 hours decant max
30's - 3 hours decant max...
70's - 7 hours decant max...

If you had used the word 'min' instead of 'max' I would be more inclined to concur.

I have seen so many instances of insufficient decanting time, both first hand and in notes; yet I see virtually no evidence of early deterioration, provided the decanter is kept 'cellar cool'.

I have just finished a decanter of Graham '77 after a little more than three days, during which time it was kept in a cool room. The last glass was every bit as good as one I drew two days ago.

Tom

uncle tom wrote:

20's - 2 hours decant max
30's - 3 hours decant max...
70's - 7 hours decant max...

If you had used the word 'min' instead of 'max' I would be more inclined to concur.

Sorry for the confusion.

I meant "max" in terms of letting a port sit before initially trying it. Don’t decant the ’27 without trying it within 2 hours, the ’45 within 4 hours… I do agree most will need longer to show their best, especially the 80’s.

mosesbotbol wrote:I meant "max" in terms of letting a port sit before initially trying it.

do we have any tasting notes that don't start with +0? sure, some may leap from there to +8, but it seems most everyone has a sip right at the start. I, of course, struggle to keep enough in the decanter for +1