ThePortForum.com

Posted: **18:39 Sat 19 Jul 2008**

[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=16717#16717]Here[/url] Vicky_Hic! wrote:My enjoyment of Port is often mentioned on my blog becuase its a favorite evening pastime of mine! I shall be enjoying some more "White" this evening I think!

Vicky,

Please tell us about White Port. Not many people here drink it (including me) and you are the first person I know who has put "White Port" as the Interest mentioned in their

Profile.

Which white ports do you like/dislike?
How do you like to drink it? - chilled? with ice? with tonic? with something else?

...and what other types of port do you drink?

Derek

Posted: **17:49 Sun 20 Jul 2008**

I only drink it one or two times a year, with tonic, and lime fruit

Posted: **19:29 Sun 20 Jul 2008**

From my point of view the first duty of port is to be red and the second is to be drunk

Axel

Posted: **05:18 Sun 03 Aug 2008**

I certainly enjoy a good white port from time to time. A dry white can make a nice aperitive on its own, but is also good with tonic. There are a couple of serious white ports out there that are worth trying: Quinta da Casa Amarela, Niepoort Ultrasec (only made from time to time), Morgadia da Calcada, and of course the Presidential (Dalva) 1952, which is a class in its own. I heard that Niepoort will come with a 10YO white soon.

Posted: **18:24 Sun 03 Aug 2008**

I’ve also heard good things about Casa Santa Eufémia’s aged white ports but I haven’t come across a bottle in the UK. Considering that it must be possible to make good white port, based on how highly the Dalva 52 is rated, I think that having specialist quintas producing it is probably the way ahead.

Posted: **09:27 Thu 28 Aug 2008**

I think that the Wine Society / Laithwaites are currently retailing a 10 yo white port. I forget who the producer is - Andresen maybe?

Just found it here. It is Andresen who produce the Laithwaites 10 yo white port.

Posted: **11:47 Thu 28 Aug 2008**

Not fair to include '52 Dalva on the white port list even though it is a white port.

I use to drink the Dow white port like 7-8 years ago and liked it. I thought the Ramos Pinto white was suppose to be decent? I would like to get back into them instead of starting off with regular white wine.

Posted: **13:18 Thu 28 Aug 2008**

Niepoort's Dry White Port is one that I enjoy by itself. And it only retails for about $12-14, so its quite cheap.

Posted: **08:31 Sat 30 Aug 2008**

mosesbotbol wrote:Not fair to include '52 Dalva on the white port list even though it is a white port.

Why not? It's a good example of the quality that can be reached with white grapes.

Posted: **15:42 Mon 31 Mar 2014**

It is not easy to find excellent White ports. I have been so lucky twice to have had the niepoort very old White port.
The color is beautiful and clear, and the taste is pure quality.
I agree with Alex on the one statement, that the Best port is a port that is drunk, But not necessarily red

Happy drinking

Posted: **02:45 Wed 02 Apr 2014**

MacAllan wrote:It is not easy to find excellent White ports. I have been so lucky twice to have had the niepoort very old White port.
The color is beautiful and clear, and the taste is pure quality.
I agree with Alex on the one statement, that the Best port is a port that is drunk, But not necessarily red
Happy drinking

I too have been quite lucky to have had this old Niepoort white on two occasions, three bottles (one didn't show so well and thus another was opened). It is quite tasty and at it's age now very delicate and quite different than most people expect it to be. A treat for sure.

Posted: **21:05 Sat 05 Apr 2014**

Old white port is excellent! I usually drink vintage port and that is the most interesting to me. However, I have had the opportunity to try i few old white port. They usually age very well. I did try a few Dalva Golden white colheitas from the 1950's-60's and 70's and they were excellent. Actually on par with vintage of the same age. I have also tried a few non dated old white (40's to 60's) which were all excellent. New (less that 20 years) white are good as aperitif. I cannot bring myself to pour tonic in port but a worm summer day it is very good with ice.

Posted: **21:05 Sat 05 Apr 2014**

Old white port is excellent! I usually drink vintage port and that is the most interesting to me. However, I have had the opportunity to try i few old white port. They usually age very well. I did try a few Dalva Golden white colheitas from the 1950's-60's and 70's and they were excellent. Actually on par with vintage of the same age. I have also tried a few non dated old white (40's to 60's) which were all excellent. New (less that 20 years) white are good as aperitif. I cannot bring myself to pour tonic in port but a worm summer day it is very good with ice.

Posted: **20:22 Sun 06 Apr 2014**

If truth be told, the Port trade is not very good at promoting white ports.

At major tasting events (if it features at all) it tends to be the also ran 'curiosity' item on the list, and how many tourist visitors to the lodges have concluded their tours with a lukewarm standard ruby, a lukewarm standard tawny - and a lukewarm standard white...

The unfinished glasses on the trays going back to be washed speak volumes..

I must admit I didn't take white ports very seriously until Vinologia introduced me to the old Dalvas, and Dirk proffered his 10yr old.

Even now though, this is not a class of port I want to settle down with for the evening. It's a one-off glass (or cocktail aperitif) rather than a session quaff.

Anyway, enough said. A Dow '85 Crusted has had the temerity to start leaking on me.. - only one punishment fits the crime...

Posted: **21:03 Sun 06 Apr 2014**

uncle tom wrote:If truth be told, the Port trade is not very good at promoting white ports.

At major tasting events (if it features at all) it tends to be the also ran 'curiosity' item on the list,

Perhaps it has generally been a supply/demand issue; that there hasn't been much point spending significant money promoting a port which there isn't much volume of - by which I mean the older serious vintage white, as opposed to the very young white which is now being commonly promoted for cocktails (such as at 2012 BBR port walk). Although a relative oddity, more marketing around vintage white could help sales of the young white which is starting to get some traction; there were a couple at the BFT last year, it will be interesting to see how many show this year.

I've very much enjoyed the few older whites which I have tried, including the Dalva Golden White '71 (I would love to try the '52, but that is starting to become difficult to come by) and the Cabral ("probable white colheita") '40. Admittedly I still have the preference for the old rubies, but the older white have impressed me too.

Posted: **10:23 Mon 07 Apr 2014**

uncle tom wrote:I would love to try the '52, but that is starting to become difficult to come by) and the Cabral ("probable white colheita") '40. Admittedly I still have the preference for the old rubies, but the older white have impressed me too.

So, Phil, make it over to the Croft Vertical to Germany and we have the 52-63-71 as an aperitif somewhere before or after. I still own one single bottle of 52.

Axel

Posted: **10:40 Mon 07 Apr 2014**

Axel P wrote:So, Phil, make it over to the Croft Vertical to Germany and we have the 52-63-71 as an aperitif somewhere before or after. I still own one single bottle of 52.

That would be most excellent; am certainty hoping/intending to come over for the Croft vertical, if I can make the date once decided.

Posted: **11:11 Mon 07 Apr 2014**

PhilW wrote:
Axel P wrote:So, Phil, make it over to the Croft Vertical to Germany and we have the 52-63-71 as an aperitif somewhere before or after. I still own one single bottle of 52.
That would be most excellent; am certainty hoping/intending to come over for the Croft vertical, if I can make the date once decided.

Is it on the 7th November? If so AW77 already has a ticket! And I am very interested... and 52-63-71 sounds like some quite vital statistics.

Posted: **12:39 Mon 07 Apr 2014**

djewesbury wrote:
PhilW wrote:
Axel P wrote:So, Phil, make it over to the Croft Vertical to Germany and we have the 52-63-71 as an aperitif somewhere before or after. I still own one single bottle of 52.
That would be most excellent; am certainty hoping/intending to come over for the Croft vertical, if I can make the date once decided.
Is it on the 7th November? If so AW77 already has a ticket! And I am very interested... and 52-63-71 sounds like some quite vital statistics.

That was a proposed date, but I wasn't sure it was a firm one yet. Yes I intend to be there if I can (and have offered some wines for the tasting also). Have emailed Axel to check if date is fixed now.

Posted: **12:41 Mon 07 Apr 2014**

PhilW wrote:
djewesbury wrote:
PhilW wrote:
Axel P wrote:So, Phil, make it over to the Croft Vertical to Germany and we have the 52-63-71 as an aperitif somewhere before or after. I still own one single bottle of 52.
That would be most excellent; am certainty hoping/intending to come over for the Croft vertical, if I can make the date once decided.
Is it on the 7th November? If so AW77 already has a ticket! And I am very interested... and 52-63-71 sounds like some quite vital statistics.
That was a proposed date, but I wasn't sure it was a firm one yet. Yes I intend to be there if I can (and have offered some wines for the tasting also). Have emailed Axel to check if date is fixed now.

Let us know what you hear. I have heard a great deal about Axel's tastings and would like to attend one!

Posted: **12:56 Mon 07 Apr 2014**

Given that white port has been imported to Britain since the 17th century, alongside the first shipments of red ports, why is it that the style has gone into such decline here? Is it simply the same old story of the 'shadow' cast by VP? Is it drunk with more interest in Portugal (etc) and are more exciting basic styles available there? I do think that some of the basic whites are good, without tonic, or lemon (e.g. Niepoort, de la Rosa); not all of them are sticky cordials specifically intended to be diluted with tonic (e.g. Cockburn's). But since most of us wouldn't ordinarily drink 'basic' categories I don't know why people are so surprised that basic whites are not so extraordinary. I do think that the aged whites that have come on the market in the last 7 years are excellent - and yes, of course a Dalva 52 is always going to knock them into a cocked hat, but then that's true of good reserve ruby / LBV ports vs great old vintages.

Discuss!

Posted: **19:18 Mon 07 Apr 2014**

Perhaps White Port, which you drink chilled, is more suited to a warmer climate like Portugal than to the UK. And in Portugal there are even reserve Whites on the market, just see these two examples:
http://www.garrafeiranacional.com/vinho ... porto.html
http://www.garrafeiranacional.com/vinho ... -7889.html

Besides, in the UK you have the traditional interest in ruby style ports (I don't know why, perhaps we should discuss the reasons in a different thread)). So wood ports are not that much appreciated in the UK. Perhaps one should try to interest the UK drinking public more in red wood ports in general before trying to raise awareness of white port. After all, evolution is a slow process.

Posted: **19:54 Mon 07 Apr 2014**

The BFT, [url=http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d3996c3b93b585cfe728d2b79&id=47b9d356d2&e=c09d322301]here[/url], wrote: Just when we thought we had the most remarkable line-up of masterclasses at the b.f.t. this year, we've been able to add a further one. Jim Reader, well known to many as something of a living legend of the Port industry, will be tutoring a tasting which he has titled "The Second Duty of Port" (you must know the original quote), based on White Ports from C da Silva, between 10 and 50 years old. If you are interested (and who on earth wouldn't be), we have limited spaces available - please visit here for details of how to apply for a space. Given all other masterclasses are currently onto waiting lists, we'll try to give preference to those who have not already signed up for more than one other masterclass.

Beyond this, the b.f.t. guarantees an embarrassment of Port riches: 26 different Port houses showing a cornucopia of styles. If you want to compare and contrast aged Tawnies (from Reserve to 40 Year Old) there are over 40 to taste. 16 different Late Bottled Vintages, 15 White Ports in a vast array of styles, 5 decades of different Colheitas to try, and 26 Vintage Ports from 14 different vintages signed up so far (including some 2012s for the first look).

And that, of course, is just the Port section. You can register your attendance via any page on the b.f.t. website if you are a bona fide member of the wine trade.

Posted: **11:21 Tue 08 Apr 2014**

“A Catalogue Of all the Household Furniture, China, Wines, and other Effects, Of the Reverend Mr. Groves, (Deceased.) At the Parsonage House at East Barnet. Consisting of Yellow Morine Beds and Window Curtains, Beds and Bedding, Mahogany Tables, Chairs, Settee Bedstead, Pier Glasses, Carpets, Stove Grates, Kitchen Furniture, &c. Which will be sold by Auction by Mr. Christie, (On the Premisses) On Monday, May the 15th” 1769.

In section “Numb. V. Wine.”, lot 8 was “Four dozen of white port”, and lot 9 was “Four ditto”, both sold for 14/6 per dozen (£2.18.0 per lot) to “Day”.

Over the next century of Christie’s catalogues “White port” appears occasionally, almost always without further description.

(Note to self: pictures 16504-7.)

Posted: **18:01 Tue 08 Apr 2014**

Just opened a nice new white Port. Please see Tasting Notes.

Axel

Posted: **18:53 Tue 08 Apr 2014**

Axel P wrote:Just opened a nice new white Port. Please see Tasting Notes.

40y old White Port Vieira de Sousa.

Posted: **10:16 Fri 31 Jul 2020**

I’ve been drinking a reasonable amount of white port recently; far more than previously.

It is interesting to look back on this thread to see how far the industry has changed in the last 12 years. Back in 2008, only basic white Port was formally acknowledged as existing by the IVDP and so the aged whites had a bit of a “bootleg” quality. I think the Santa Eufémia 1972 was euphemistically described as a “special reserve”. There were also so few available: the only aged white that was readily available outside Portugal was the Dalva 1952 which had a bit of a mythical quality to it. It was talked about a bit like the garrafeiras: excellent wine from a unique category.

Since the IVDP acknowledged the existence of aged white Ports there are now loads of them being produced. What really interests me is how many old ones are around: this suggests that the producers were aging a reasonable amount of White Port for personal consumption without much view to selling them. Oscar Quevedo said as much at the tasting last night, suggesting he had to persuade his sister that their 30-year-old was worth selling. Their 1970 colheita also has to be sold in the old-fashioned bootleg way as a “very old white” or something similar because the family never bothered registering it with the IVDP.

I presume that some of the current 10-year-old whites will be the first releases made with Ports laid down specifically for commercial sale and, over the coming decades, they will percolate up into more 20-, 30- and 40-year old whites. It will be interesting to see if this also results in an improvement in quality.

I also think it is interesting to look at the basic whites.

One striking feature of the basic white category is that there is such a colossal amount of variation. There is no consensus between producers as to what a basic white should be. We have ones which are very sweet (e.g. the Ramos-Pinto “Lágrima” White), very dry (e.g. Taylor’s “Chip Dry”) or something in the middle. Some are bottled to be very fresh (e.g. Graham’s № 5) whilst others have a bit of age (e.g. Churchill). Alcohol levels seem to fluctuate from 21% (e.g. Martha’s Extra Dry*) down to 18% (e.g. Niepoort).

[* which is the only one of these Ports which I have not tried]

I should also say that I presume someone, somewhere, makes the fabled 16.5% Leve Secco which is mentioned in every book about Port but which I have never seen for sale, let alone tried.

The problem with this diversity is that it is not at all clear for consumers what they are buying. Is a “dry white” bone dry or off-dry? Will it have any age or be very fresh? If you liked the Graham’s № 5 and then bought the Taylor’s Chip Dry you would be bitterly disappointed but if you bought the Cockburn’s you might be happier.

I think the best basic white ports are ones that are clearly ports and not poor copies of sherry. As a result, I like them to be at least medium sweet, although I do think there is an advantage at the lower ABVs to give them a lightness. I think both the fresh and aged approach are good, as long as the aged ones still retain some fruit.

I sometimes wonder if there has been an over-reliance on structural varieties of grapes over those which give aromas. I also think wonder if the best vineyards for white grapes are not those that have received as much investment in recent years since they might be further away from the rivers, where higher altitude will produce cooler temperatures.

Posted: **11:41 Sat 01 Aug 2020**

I really agree with you Jacob. Over the last 2-3 years - since visiting Quinta das Lamelas and after Kopke's masterclass on White Port at the BFT a couple of years ago - I have been drinking much more white Port than in previous years. Mrs B has also decided that white Port is her drink of choice; sometimes mixed and sometimes straight depending on whether she's drinking Cockburn Fine White or Quevedo 1970 white.

My go to white has become the Quinta das Lamelas 10 year old. It's not cheap, but it is delicious and so easy to drink chilled from the fridge on a warm summer's day. It seems to disappear alarmingly quickly.

But there are so many other good whites around. I wish I could get the Kopke whites more easily in the UK, Laithwaite's carry some of the Andresen whites (which are also rather nice) and, of course, Vintage Wine & Port offer the Quevedo white range.

Perhaps because of their novelty, perhaps because of the relatively small number of suitable white grape vines in the Douro, I find white Port is more expensive than it's quality ruby counterpart sometimes being reflected as a difference in price or sometimes being reflected as the 20YO tawny in 75cl and the 20YO white being in 50cl bottles but both bottles being the same price.

Unfortunately it seems that Mrs B and I enjoy white Port sufficiently to be prepared to pay the premium! But I love this development in the Port industry and will continue to enjoy the benefits.

I can't wait for a maverick to make a white "vintage" Port as an experiment...

Posted: **17:22 Sat 01 Aug 2020**

The other thing that strikes me, looking back, is that in 2008 the Port industry was in the midst of the “Pink Port” nonsense. It seems crazy that all that effort was thrown at making something brand new (which generally poor results) when White Port was so undeveloped.

AHB wrote: ↑11:41 Sat 01 Aug 2020My go to white has become the Quinta das Lamelas 10 year old. It's not cheap, but it is delicious and so easy to drink chilled from the fridge on a warm summer's day. It seems to disappear alarmingly quickly.

Interesting. I’ll have a look for a bottle of that: I’ve tried a few of their wines over the years but only in Portugal. Is there a UK supplier?

I think the comment about how easy some of these are to drink is an important one. For me this suggests that a lower ABV is the way to go since most people don’t want to quaff their way through a bottle at 20% ABV on a hot summer’s day. I appreciate this creates a tension against marketing them as a cocktail ingredient where a slightly higher strength is beneficial. But then I am always a bit suspicious of drinks which are marketed for cocktails rather than to be drunk in their own right!

AHB wrote: ↑11:41 Sat 01 Aug 2020Perhaps because of their novelty, perhaps because of the relatively small number of suitable white grape vines in the Douro, I find white Port is more expensive than it's quality ruby counterpart sometimes being reflected as a difference in price or sometimes being reflected as the 20YO tawny in 75cl and the 20YO white being in 50cl bottles but both bottles being the same price.

Yes: and I think this could be a real problem for expansion since the higher prices put the white ports in comparative price brackets with other wines which are much better value. For example, the Graham’s № 5 is a very good wine but just seems a bit too pricey at £21. It’s why I think Cockburn’s have got it exactly right in terms of value for money.

AHB wrote: ↑11:41 Sat 01 Aug 2020I can't wait for a maverick to make a white "vintage" Port as an experiment...

That idea has Dirk Niepoort’s name written all over it!

Posted: **22:05 Sat 01 Aug 2020**

JacobH wrote: ↑17:22 Sat 01 Aug 2020
AHB wrote: ↑11:41 Sat 01 Aug 2020My go to white has become the Quinta das Lamelas 10 year old. It's not cheap, but it is delicious and so easy to drink chilled from the fridge on a warm summer's day. It seems to disappear alarmingly quickly.
Interesting. I’ll have a look for a bottle of that: I’ve tried a few of their wines over the years but only in Portugal. Is there a UK supplier?

Unfortunately not at the moment. I either buy when in Portugal and bring them back with me or buy from the cellar and have them ship the bottles over to me.

JacobH wrote: ↑17:22 Sat 01 Aug 2020
AHB wrote: ↑11:41 Sat 01 Aug 2020I can't wait for a maverick to make a white "vintage" Port as an experiment...
That idea has Dirk Niepoort’s name written all over it!

Or perhaps Oscar given what he was saying on Thursday.

Posted: **20:38 Sun 02 Aug 2020**

I was very much into aged white Ports many years ago, long before they became popular. I used to ask every producer I visited and almost all said they had little to no old white Port. The old Casa Do Douro on the other hand used to have lots. I'm sure you can figure out how so many producers ended up with old stocks so quickly.

That said, many producers made small amounts of it for family use. So like the old Scion's, there was amounts of it around.

Posted: **20:58 Sun 02 Aug 2020**

I always forget about the Casa and its stocks!

But, as a serious question, how did it end up with such stocks? Was it really the case that they would buy any white Port on offer (with no realistic prospect of selling it) without encouraging the producers to grow more saleable stuff?

Posted: **19:06 Thu 04 Feb 2021**

Just bought from Laithwaite’s (part of Direct Wines Ltd): Andresen 10Y White, in 50cl. It says bottled 2020. How much bottle age would be useful?

Posted: **20:12 Thu 04 Feb 2021**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:06 Thu 04 Feb 2021Just bought from Laithwaite’s (part of Direct Wines Ltd): Andresen 10Y White, in 50cl. It says bottled 2020. How much bottle age would be useful?

Anything from none to a couple of decades.

The bottles of 10YO White I buy tend to be consumed within 12 months of purchase. I definitely don't buy them to bottle age them.

Posted: **22:53 Thu 04 Feb 2021**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:06 Thu 04 Feb 2021 Just bought from Laithwaite’s (part of Direct Wines Ltd): Andresen 10Y White, in 50cl. It says bottled 2020. How much bottle age would be useful?

I assume that the unwritten rules for bottle-aging TWAIOA would also apply to WWAIOA, so that would make the standard recommendation "drink within 3-5 years of bottling."

I have not had that much experience with bottle-aged whites, so can't say with certainty that they have the same (or more) aging potential as some tawnies (particularly Colheitas). But I have had many bottle-aged white wines and those seem to age splendidly, so I have high hopes for bottle-aged white Port as well.

Posted: **02:44 Fri 05 Feb 2021**

First time posting to this site. I'm usually on FTLOP, but I've enjoyed lurking on here the past year or so as well. This thread caught my eye because tonight I coincidentally opened a S. Leonardo 20 y.o. white. It's like drinking liquid butterscotch with a twist of citrus. Very nice.

I had a Dalva Golden White '71 a few months back and that was outstanding. Some day, I hope to try the '52.

Posted: **09:11 Fri 05 Feb 2021**

How much bottle age would be useful?

As this category has not been around for long, we are in the realms of informed guesswork. My limited experience of aged white colheitas does not suggest anything bad happens to them over time, and wines from 1933 and 1940 have shown great elegance.

Tawnies that have been savagely filtered and fined sometimes fall apart, but Andresen has form for not processing its wines aggressively.

What to do? Buy another, drink one, and keep the other for ten years or more.

Posted: **00:16 Thu 11 Feb 2021**

Mike J. W. wrote: ↑02:44 Fri 05 Feb 2021First time posting to this site.

Welcome to TPF.

uncle tom wrote: ↑09:11 Fri 05 Feb 2021What to do? Buy another, drink one, and keep the other for ten years or more.

Translation: try not to drink the whole dozen in summer 2021.

Posted: **12:53 Thu 11 Feb 2021**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑00:16 Thu 11 Feb 2021
Mike J. W. wrote: ↑02:44 Fri 05 Feb 2021First time posting to this site.
Welcome to TPF.

uncle tom wrote: ↑09:11 Fri 05 Feb 2021What to do? Buy another, drink one, and keep the other for ten years or more.
Translation: try not to drink the whole dozen in summer 2021.

That's pretty much what I did last year- bought a case of 12 of the 10yr white and then drank it all

Posted: **16:01 Thu 11 Feb 2021**

10YO white is incredibly easy to drink. I drank my way through a case of 12 last summer too - although I had help as soon as Mrs B saw what was in my glass.

Posted: **17:05 Thu 11 Feb 2021**

During the "pre-tour" for one of Roy's Port Harvest Tours, I discovered - basically by accident - that a 10 Year Old White works exceptionally well and a food wine across dishes that others might need a champagne, a white wine, a rose, or even a lighter red like a Pinot Noir. This was as Euskalduna in Porto. Everyone else was getting the proscribed wine pairing while I just kept ordering another glass of Andressen 10 YO White. It wasn't until the last course, for which the others were having a bigger, heavier red that I felt the Andressen wasn't quite right with the dish.

The added benefit is that while white Ports do tend to be more expensive than similar age tawny Ports, the ability to downgrade the age category from my usual 30 or 40 Year Old Tawny to a 10 Year Old White means that I'm still saving money.

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