ThePortForum.com

Good evening all,

I came on here because I know precious little about Port (other than the fact it goes down mighty well). I'm a Bar Manager of a new bar in Docklands, London and have actually come on board to get an idea of what Ports I should be stocking for the restaurant (we have yet to hire a sommelier).

Any suggestions would be most welcome.

I have been offered, from varying suppliers:

Smith Woodhouse 1983 Vintage

A variety of Ramos Pinto wines including LBVs from 2000, 2001, 2002 and vintages from '82, '83, '95 and 2000.

Quinta de Roriz Vintage 1999

If anyone knows these wines and has any comments let me know.


If anyone needs any help with any other spirits I have over 15 years experience in the bar trade and have an extensive knowledge of such things.

Good health!

Evening.

1. Which bar? Some of us might want to drink there?

2. We have a long list of tasting notes.

3. TNs for the SW83 (Sun 30 Nov 2008, Thu 21 Jun 2007) are favourable. Is it expensive?

4. Ramos-Pinto ’83 liked, but the ’00 wasn’t.

Dockmaster's House in West India Quay. The old Excise House next to the cinema. It wil be a fine-dining Indian Fusion restaurant. We are putting together quite an exciting wine and spirit list with particularly hard to find items that cannot be found anywhere else. My friend who runs a Spanish restaurant is helping source some very nice sherries but I'm stuck a little on ports.


We won't be opening until February but I'm getting the Bar Menus together now. You're more than welcome to pop in then and have a bottle of Krug Clos de Mesnil 1989.

If you are planning any sort of dry run event, I have a group of friends who are all big connosieurs of indian food. I am sure they would be more than willing to help with such an event!

Good luck with the preparation and look forward to seeing you at a TPF offline if you get a night off at a convenient time. Check out the "organising tastings" thread for a possible January event.

The Wharf newspaper, in a story entitled [url=http://www.wharf.co.uk/2008/11/dockmasters-aims-for-a-bit-of.html]Dockmasters aims for a bit of class[/url], wrote:THE DOCKMASTERS House is taking on the credit crunch and reopening as a fine dining restaurant.

The venue on Hertsmere Road, which will open early next year, could also include a private members’ bar and a cigar marquee.

General manager Sacha Daniel, who has previously worked at Gaucho Grill in Canary Wharf, said: ‟This is a retreat a bit away from Canary Wharf, with beautiful gardens and beautiful bars.

‟It’s an exciting venue and it will be very attractive to residents and workers.”

The hand-over from the construction workers will take place on November 25 and the venue is due to open in mid-January.

Before it closed earlier this year, Dockmasters was an Indian restaurant. Mr Daniel said the menu would still be focused on Indian food but with a more fine dining aspect.

Iqbal Wahhab, founder of Westminster venue The Cinnamon Club, is working as a consultant on the Dockmasters House project and the executive chef at the 105-cover restaurant will be the award-winning Navin Bhatia, formerly of Cafe Lazeez in South Kensington.

The building will make use of all three floors, with private dining areas upstairs.

A downstairs cocktail bar will be themed as a chilled-out ‟buddha bar”, while a garden area will be open during summer months as will a marquee where cigars will be sold.

News of the Dockmasters House relaunch comes weeks after two of West India Quay’s restaurants shut their doors.

Champagne bar Dion closed just months after opening, while long-standing restaurant Beluga also closed for good.

However, while others may be worrying about the economy, the Dockmasters House owners have a fearless approach to the financial climate.

Sacha said: ‟When this was just an Indian restaurant it was a busy place and last week I was walking back from the cinema and many bars on West India Quay were full. I think this is still a very popular area.”

The renovation project is being funded by Jamaica Tavern Limited. The company is yet to reveal the cost of the works.

Sounds good.

dockmaster wrote:Good evening all,

I came on here because I know precious little about Port (other than the fact it goes down mighty well). I'm a Bar Manager of a new bar in Docklands, London and have actually come on board to get an idea of what Ports I should be stocking for the restaurant (we have yet to hire a sommelier).

Any suggestions would be most welcome.

I have been offered, from varying suppliers:

Smith Woodhouse 1983 Vintage

A variety of Ramos Pinto wines including LBVs from 2000, 2001, 2002 and vintages from '82, '83, '95 and 2000.

Quinta de Roriz Vintage 1999

If anyone knows these wines and has any comments let me know.


If anyone needs any help with any other spirits I have over 15 years experience in the bar trade and have an extensive knowledge of such things.

Good health!

i'd like to suggest a taylor 20 year tawny as it's a steady glass I love to sip with at a bar.

Colheitas are also good and because these have seen wood, they'll last longer in open bottles.

dockmaster wrote:Smith Woodhouse 1983 Vintage

A variety of Ramos Pinto wines including LBVs from 2000, 2001, 2002 and vintages from '82, '83, '95 and 2000.

Quinta de Roriz Vintage 1999

Julian has pointed you in the direction of the tasting notes, so you have a reference there for the wines that you are offered, although I would say that your supplier has offered you a decent start. Smith Woodhouse 1983 is lovely.

But it might be nice for you to be able to offer a variety of types of port - bottles (including perhaps a trophy bottle) and also "by the glass".

Guessing that you are unlikely to sell a lot of port (sadly, from our point of view) "by the glass" really requires a port which will last a while in an open bottle. An LBV is a good candidate, as these will likely stay fresh for a week or so, especially if you can keep the bottle in the fridge. But please also consider offering a tawny or colheita (which is a vintage tawny). G-man's suggestion of Taylor 20 year old is a good idea. Warre also make a very pleasant 1988 colheita, which is their current release. Both of these will last a couple of weeks, once opened - again best kept in a fridge, if you can. It prolongs their life.

For a bottle of vintage port, the Smth Woodhouse is a very good suggestion, as would be a Ramos Pinto '95 (although this is quite young). I would avoid port from 1982 as it is generally regarded as a weak vintage.

For a trophy bottle, I would suggest something special from a top producer that anyone reasonably familiar with port will recognise - Graham, Taylor or Fonseca would be my three suggestions. Something like a Fonseca 1963 would retail at £200 a bottle and is superb to drink now and would make a great trophy port for someone who liked port and wanted to show off to their friends.

However, the challenge with most vintage ports is that they often require quite some time in a decanter to hit their peak - it's not unusual to find 6-8 hours is a minimum. I often call up a restaurant in the morning and ask them to open and decant a port I choose off their wine list at 10am for dinner at 7pm.

Finally, we're always on the look-out for friendly venues who would welcome a bunch of port lovers who are looking for a meal and a table where they can eat, sit, gossip and bring some port with them to help the general chat. If you would be that sort of venue then please let us know and we'll drop by one day to say hello.

Alex

I have to confess that I have never drunk Port with any Indian food, despite being very fond of both. Perhaps the ‟fusion” bit will make it a more amenable combination? In any case, if the food is going to be fairly spicy, I would be more inclined towards the younger ports where the bolder fruit flavours might stand a better chance of surviving the heat. A tawny might also be quite good if you are having any very sweet puddings, such as Gulab Jamun.

As has already been mentioned, if any Port is being sold ‟by the glass”, please make sure it is reasonably fresh! Perhaps even look into half-bottles, to ensure a good turn-over?

The "fusion bit" does indeed mean a little lighter on the breathtaking spices normally associated with Indian cuisine. NAvin Bhatia our head chef fusing Indian flavours with modern European foods and styles.

I would like to arrange a tasting once we are up and running but it won't be for a few months at the very least.


So far we are definitely going with:

Nieport Colheita (I think it's 1991)

2 other Ramos Pinto Tawnies although I'm not sure which ones (I'm getting a couple of bottles in for sampling)

Smith Woodhouse 1983

Ramos Pinto LBV 2000

We are also looking at a Garrafeira from Nieport but as I have no idea what this is I need to do a bit of research.

AHB wrote:Finally, we're always on the look-out for friendly venues who would welcome a bunch of port lovers who are looking for a meal and a table where they can eat, sit, gossip and bring some port with them to help the general chat. If you would be that sort of venue then please let us know and we'll drop by one day to say hello.

Alex

By all means. I'll even waive the corkage fee.


God, I'm nice.

I've just spent quite a lot of money on some very nice decanters as well.

dockmaster wrote:We are also looking at a Garrafeira from Nieport but as I have no idea what this is I need to do a bit of research.

Have a read of this thread and then post any questions you have about this style and we will help you if we can.

Derek

dockmaster wrote:The "fusion bit" does indeed mean a little lighter on the breathtaking spices normally associated with Indian cuisine. NAvin Bhatia our head chef fusing Indian flavours with modern European foods and styles.

I would like to arrange a tasting once we are up and running but it won't be for a few months at the very least.

Sounds good!

dockmaster wrote:2 other Ramos Pinto Tawnies although I'm not sure which ones (I'm getting a couple of bottles in for sampling)

I’ve only had the Ramos Pinto ten-year-old, which has a slightly bizarre (at least for Port) pink colour but it otherwise a pleasant enough tawny. Make sure to try them at a variety of temperatures, from cellar to slightly chilled, as some tawnies seem to benefit from being a bit colder.

Thank you, Derek. I don't think my supplier wil give me one of those to sample so I'll have to go in blind.

JacobH wrote: I’ve only had the Ramos Pinto ten-year-old, which has a slightly bizarre (at least for Port) pink colour but it otherwise a pleasant enough tawny. Make sure to try them at a variety of temperatures, from cellar to slightly chilled, as some tawnies seem to benefit from being a bit colder.

I think it's the 10 year old and 20 year old. I'll do some tastings at various temperatures and come back with the results.

Cheers Jacob

dockmaster wrote:Nieport Colheita (I think it's 1991)

2 other Ramos Pinto Tawnies although I'm not sure which ones (I'm getting a couple of bottles in for sampling)

Smith Woodhouse 1983

Ramos Pinto LBV 2000

Nice choices. A good variety of styles and a mature port to choose, as well. Two tawnies from Ramos Pinto might be more than you need. If I recall, the 20 year old is my stock port when I visit our Head Office in Munich.

We are also looking at a Garrafeira from Nieport but as I have no idea what this is I need to do a bit of research.

I suspect that most people (myself included) would not appreciate enough the difference between a Garrafeira and a standard colheita to make it worth offering one on your list. Perhaps better to offer an extremely young vintage port or maybe even to just shorten the list slightly.

dockmaster wrote:By all means. I'll even waive the corkage fee.

I've just spent quite a lot of money on some very nice decanters as well.

Sounds wonderful. We'll certainly look you out later in the year. Thank you.

No I need to see what the tube links are like to Waterloo and Paddington...

AHB wrote:I suspect that most people (myself included) would not appreciate enough the difference between a Garrafeira and a standard colheita to make it worth offering one on your list. Perhaps better to offer an extremely young vintage port or maybe even to just shorten the list slightly.

Fair enough.

I will be changing my wine list about twice a year so there is always room for different vintages and houses!

dockmaster wrote:

JacobH wrote: I’ve only had the Ramos Pinto ten-year-old, which has a slightly bizarre (at least for Port) pink colour but it otherwise a pleasant enough tawny. Make sure to try them at a variety of temperatures, from cellar to slightly chilled, as some tawnies seem to benefit from being a bit colder.

I think it's the 10 year old and 20 year old. I'll do some tastings at various temperatures and come back with the results.

Cheers Jacob

Do post a note in the Tasting Notes forum to let us know what you think: the more diverse selection of people and palates we have contributing, the better!

dockmaster wrote:

JacobH wrote: I’ve only had the Ramos Pinto ten-year-old, which has a slightly bizarre (at least for Port) pink colour but it otherwise a pleasant enough tawny. Make sure to try them at a variety of temperatures, from cellar to slightly chilled, as some tawnies seem to benefit from being a bit colder.

I think it's the 10 year old and 20 year old. I'll do some tastings at various temperatures and come back with the results.

The Ramos Pinto 20-yr old is the best 20-yr old on the market, in my opinion. Two others are generally also considered top-flight: the Sandeman and the Ferreira Duque de Braganca.

Of the three, the Sandeman is the brightest and most lively due to having easily the most acidity. The Ramos Pinto falls on the other end of the acidity spectrum and so is (in my opinion) smoother and mellower, while the Ferreira fits between the two. I know people who consider each of these other two to be the best 20-yr old available as well.

Really, though, you probably can't go wrong with any one of the three. They are all superb examples of 20-yr old Tawny Ports.

as a restaurant i think it's good to offer the 10 yr from a profit stand point.

I've seen restaurants charge 12-15$ a glass for the 20 yr tawny
but 7-10$ for the 10 yr tawny.

That seemly 5$ difference is usually a difference maker for someone looking for some port with dessert but don't really care to spend the cost of 2 desserts for a glass.

I would imagine for a majority of people, 12-15$ for a small 2 oz of port is alot of money.

g-man wrote:I would imagine for a majority of people, 12-15$ for a small 2 oz of port is alot of money.

I thought that a normal serving of Port should be 3 oz?

At least that's my rule of thumb... 4 glasses of red wine from a bottle, 6 glasses of white wine, or 8 glasses of Port. Are my servings too large?

Glenn E. wrote:

g-man wrote:I would imagine for a majority of people, 12-15$ for a small 2 oz of port is alot of money.

I thought that a normal serving of Port should be 3 oz?

At least that's my rule of thumb... 4 glasses of red wine from a bottle, 6 glasses of white wine, or 8 glasses of Port. Are my servings too large?

they might be more generous in seattle =)

In the UK, according to the weights and measures law, Port and other fortified wines are served in 50ml measures or multiples of 50ml.

Or just buy the bottle for the table

dockmaster wrote:In the UK, according to the weights and measures law, Port and other fortified wines are served in 50ml measures or multiples of 50ml.

The nearest I can find is the The Weights and Measures (Intoxicating Liquor) Order 1988, of which the nearest I can find is

5. (1) Subject to paragraph (2) of this article, wine and made-wine for consumption on the premises at which it is sold shall

• (a) be pre-packed only in one of the following quantities, that is to say
  • (i) 25 cl, 50 cl, 75 cl, or 1 L; or
    (ii) 10 fl oz, or 20 fl oz;

which, despite the commendable allowing of 1-litre portions, doesn’t seem quite so restrictive as you say. Please Mr Dockmaster, what am I missing?

jdaw1 wrote:

dockmaster wrote:In the UK, according to the weights and measures law, Port and other fortified wines are served in 50ml measures or multiples of 50ml.

The nearest I can find is the The Weights and Measures (Intoxicating Liquor) Order 1988, of which the nearest I can find is

5. (1) Subject to paragraph (2) of this article, wine and made-wine for consumption on the premises at which it is sold shall

• (a) be pre-packed only in one of the following quantities, that is to say
  • (i) 25 cl, 50 cl, 75 cl, or 1 L; or
    (ii) 10 fl oz, or 20 fl oz;

which, despite the commendable allowing of 1-litre portions, doesn’t seem quite so restrictive as you say. Please Mr Dockmaster, what am I missing?

Blah, Julian beat me to it! Incidentally, that SI has been amended by SI 2001 No. 1322 (‟Weights and Measures (Intoxicating Liquor) (Amendment) Order 2001”).

Anyway, my understanding was that it was only Gin, Vodka, Rum, Whisky, Wine and Cider which had defined units of sale. Others (e.g. Port) can be sold in any quantity. It’s a fairly odd list (for instance, it’s rare to have cider mentioned without perry), but then we’ve never quite sorted out our units of measurements over here.