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I have never had one and I don't yet own any, but here is a question for those of you who have drunk Nacional. Is it the pinnacle, the Chateau D'Yquem of port? Or like the Bordeaux first growths, is it excellent wine that has been distorted by its status as a luxury item? What I mean by that is that in many great years you can buy a monumental second growth for half of the price of a first, and what is in the glass is indistinguishable in quality.

We have argued the same topic before

http://theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... yth#p17567

Having had the generosity of a few fellow port tasters here, I've had two of the nacional from the 80s and both were a bit disappointing for the price paid.

There are multiple ways to look at that question, and if you read the entire thread that g-man linked I think you'll see them all represented.

In summary, most people seem to agree that Noval Nacional rightly sits in a class all its own. In that sense it is the pinnacle of Port, because few (if any) other Ports can command the prices that are paid for bottles of Nacional or achieve the heights of greatness that the truly epic Nacionals have achieved. That is something of a self fulfilling prophecy, however, because Noval Nacional was deliberately created to fill that niche and it was also the first to attempt to fill that niche. Once the niche is filled, it is far more difficult for another to join the club.

Is it really worth the premium, though? That's a question that cannot be answered objectively, because it depends almost entirely on whether or not you can actually afford to buy one. Noval Nacional is deliberately exclusive and rare, but even the most ardent supporters of the brand will not claim that it is always the best Port from every vintage. Occasionally it isn't even better than the standard Noval VP. Yet some people still pay the premium just so that they can own a bottle of an extremely exclusive Port.

I think your comparison to first growth Bordeaux wines is apt, except that in the case of Nacional the price multiplier is closer to 4 or 5.

And I still think that my comparison to Paris Hilton is fitting.

Great thread. You guys have certainly trodden this ground before.

While I would love to drink Nacional, and someday I will, I am firmly in the camp of buying four bottles of fantastic Fonseca or Taylor's to one of Nacional, especially since I was unaware of the marketing history of that particular brand and parcel of land. Prior to reading your thread I was like everyone else who thought that the vines at Nacional were personally planted by Jesus and watered weekly with 1945 Petrus.

It sounds like several of you actually went to the Quinta in Pinhau to a tasting. Every time I have gone (always in August) it has been closed (as have most of the Quintas). Any advice on getting inside for a tipple?

Portman wrote:Great thread. You guys have certainly trodden this ground before.

While I would love to drink Nacional, and someday I will, I am firmly in the camp of buying four bottles of fantastic Fonseca or Taylor's to one of Nacional, especially since I was unaware of the marketing history of that particular brand and parcel of land. Prior to reading your thread I was like everyone else who thought that the vines at Nacional were personally planted by Jesus and watered weekly with 1945 Petrus.

you bring a 45 petrus and I'll bring you a 63 nacional.

Portman wrote:It sounds like several of you actually went to the Quinta in Pinhau to a tasting. Every time I have gone (always in August) it has been closed (as have most of the Quintas). Any advice on getting inside for a tipple?

As I recall, touring Noval requires a reservation, which generally means you have to know someone or go with a tour group. They aren't open for walk-ins like a lot of the other Quintas around Pinhao.

If you've driven up there, though, then you've already been through the Nacional vineyard. Part of it is right next to the road on the uphill side after you make that last right-hand turn just before you reach the house.

Tying in with the nacional,

Why is Taylor's Vinha Velha so damn $$$

g-man wrote:Tying in with the nacional,

Why is Taylor's Vinha Velha so damn $$$

It is produced from very old vines from a very small part of one of the most famous and best Quintas in the Douro and is an exclusive luxury product from a top class producer.

DRT wrote:

g-man wrote:Tying in with the nacional,

Why is Taylor's Vinha Velha so damn $$$

It is produced from very old vines from a very small part of one of the most famous and best Quintas in the Douro and is an exclusive luxury product from a top class producer.

Is it worth the money tho =)

g-man wrote:

DRT wrote:

g-man wrote:Tying in with the nacional,

Why is Taylor's Vinha Velha so damn $$$

It is produced from very old vines from a very small part of one of the most famous and best Quintas in the Douro and is an exclusive luxury product from a top class producer.

Is it worth the money tho =)

That depends on your definition of "worth". I have tasted TVVV twice. Both on the same day and both on a veranda in front of the house at Vargellas overlooking the vines from which it was produced so my opinion may be somewhat tainted by that experience. It was definitely a seriously good wine. Was it 2 or 3 times better than Taylor 2003? No. Is it 2 or 3 times more exclusive than taylor 2003? Yes. By many more times than that.

I would put it in the same bracket as Nacional. You should only buy it for the experience of owning and drinking it for what it is. A luxury item. These will never be daily drinkers or even wines to open on the "average" special occassion. If you try to rationalise buying these on a VFM basis you will never, ever buy one. A a simple analogy: go into a jewlers and find a watch that you really like for $200, $500 or $1000. Then ask yourself what more you will know about what time of day it is by buying a Rolex

DRT wrote: I would put it in the same bracket as Nacional. You should only buy it for the experience of owning and drinking it for what it is. A luxury item. These will never be daily drinkers or even wines to open on the "average" special occassion. If you try to rationalise buying these on a VFM basis you will never, ever buy one. A a simple analogy: go into a jewlers and find a watch that you really like for $200, $500 or $1000. Then ask yourself what more you will know about what time of day it is by buying a Rolex

But the phillipe patek's tell me the moon cycles too!! =)

g-man wrote:

DRT wrote: I would put it in the same bracket as Nacional. You should only buy it for the experience of owning and drinking it for what it is. A luxury item. These will never be daily drinkers or even wines to open on the "average" special occassion. If you try to rationalise buying these on a VFM basis you will never, ever buy one. A a simple analogy: go into a jewlers and find a watch that you really like for $200, $500 or $1000. Then ask yourself what more you will know about what time of day it is by buying a Rolex

But the phillipe patek's tell me the moon cycles too!! =)

...and drinking Nacional and Vinha Velha every day gives you eternal life, aparently.

DRT wrote:

g-man wrote:

DRT wrote: I would put it in the same bracket as Nacional. You should only buy it for the experience of owning and drinking it for what it is. A luxury item. These will never be daily drinkers or even wines to open on the "average" special occassion. If you try to rationalise buying these on a VFM basis you will never, ever buy one. A a simple analogy: go into a jewlers and find a watch that you really like for $200, $500 or $1000. Then ask yourself what more you will know about what time of day it is by buying a Rolex

But the phillipe patek's tell me the moon cycles too!! =)

...and drinking Nacional and Vinha Velha every day gives you eternal life, aparently.

...and I hated my Timex almost as much as Cockburn's Special Reserve

DRT wrote:

g-man wrote:

DRT wrote: I would put it in the same bracket as Nacional. You should only buy it for the experience of owning and drinking it for what it is. A luxury item. These will never be daily drinkers or even wines to open on the "average" special occassion. If you try to rationalise buying these on a VFM basis you will never, ever buy one. A a simple analogy: go into a jewlers and find a watch that you really like for $200, $500 or $1000. Then ask yourself what more you will know about what time of day it is by buying a Rolex

But the phillipe patek's tell me the moon cycles too!! =)

...and drinking Nacional and Vinha Velha every day gives you eternal life, aparently.

small sum to pay then for the elixir of life =)

Typically, VVV trades on a markup of a little more than 100% over the regular Taylor, while the Nacional has a variable value that is somewhere in low orbit..

That Nacional's gilded reputation has survived, along with that of the regular Noval, is really quite remarkable; given that both wines went through two decades of relative mediocrity in the seventies and eighties. Had that not been followed by a return to excellence, Noval's reputation would now be firmly confined to the past tense.

It is hard to overstate the success of Christian Seely's management of the Quinta.

Tom

uncle tom wrote:Typically, VVV trades on a markup of a little more than 100% over the regular Taylor, while the Nacional has a variable value that is somewhere in low orbit.

That difference, at least to me, is what makes VVV appealing. I cannot for the life of me rationalize buying a NN when the regular Novals are usually in the same ballpark ratings-wise. A 4-5x markup for 1-2 extra points, even when we're talking about potential 97 point Ports vs 99 point Ports, is just beyond the pale for me.

2x is much more reasonable for me, and I'd like to try a VVV some time.

I'd love to try a NN some time, too, but I suspect that's a lot less likely to happen at least until the day I open my 1964 that Derek's holding for me.

DRT wrote:...and drinking Nacional and Vinha Velha every day gives you eternal life, aparently.

Fantastic marketing and deeply untestable. They release about 150 cases of Nacional each declaration, which is most years. Call that an average of 100 cases a year. So to drink a bottle of Nacional every day would take about 30% of the released quantity of the product. At most three people can do that and there are plenty more than three people born in the 1920 who are still alive.

Glenn E. wrote:

uncle tom wrote:Typically, VVV trades on a markup of a little more than 100% over the regular Taylor, while the Nacional has a variable value that is somewhere in low orbit.

That difference, at least to me, is what makes VVV appealing. I cannot for the life of me rationalize buying a NN when the regular Novals are usually in the same ballpark ratings-wise. A 4-5x markup for 1-2 extra points, even when we're talking about potential 97 point Ports vs 99 point Ports, is just beyond the pale for me.

2x is much more reasonable for me, and I'd like to try a VVV some time.

I'd love to try a NN some time, too, but I suspect that's a lot less likely to happen at least until the day I open my 1964 that Derek's holding for me.

What follows is a straw man, based on nothing but my random thoughts and idle speculation so don't take it too seriously but do respond.

So here's how my thoughts ran when I read this thread.

Noval Nacional is a fabulous port. Several of the 10 best ports I have ever drunk are Nacional ports ('63, '94, '03) and there are several astonishing examples from "poor" years ('62, '64, '67). Whether the wines are this good through very tight selection or through astonishing grape quality I don't know for sure but I think I can vaguely recall Christian Seely saying that the entire crop of (red) grapes from the Nacional vineyard are fermented together in a single lagare so any selection that is carried out must be of the grapes on the sorting table. While the Nacional wines declared in the early- and mid-eighties were poor examples of what Nacional can achieve I agree with Tom that under AXA's guidance (we shouldn't forget Jean-Michel Cazes' time in charge of AXA-Millesimes, as well as Christian Seely's influence) the Nacional wines have recovered strongly. Given the rarity of the wines, the small quantities in which they are produced and their stunning quality, I would suggest that they are fairly priced as a luxury product. All port lovers will strive to own and taste a bottle one day, once the necessities of life have been paid for. On top of this, we have the wonderful story and romance of how these wines are planted on the original rootstock but that they are nursed and nurtered with love and care to struggle through the attacks by the phyloxera louse, which weakens them but doesn't kill them quickly. A natural marketing opportunity and a story that we all love.

Vargellas Vinha Velha is a much newer product. I don't know for sure how the sizes of the Nacional and Vinha Velha plots compare, but my impression by eye is that the Vinha Velha plot is larger. I seem to recall that VVV was first released from the 1995 vintage and has been followed by a release every 3-4 years. The few bottles of VVV I have tasted have been big, bold and tannic - and pretty darned closed up. Nacional certainly has an advantage over VVV in that it has years of track record and development behind it. We have the timeline to know that it went through a rough patch in the eighties but that it was great before that and great after. VVV is still developing that track record. We have no idea how good and astonishing the 1995 VVV or the 2000 VVV will be at the age of 45. Perhaps it will be just as good as the 1963 Nacional is today.

But my thought is that IF the VVV proves over time to be as extraordinary as the Nacional then that price differential that we see today of 2:1 VVV:Taylor will move much more in the direction of the Nacional:Noval ratio that is more in the order of 4-20:1, depending on the vintage, say 10:1 on average.

So what I'm suggesting is that if you are a port lover in this game for the long haul and you want to have some luxury port available without having to bust the bank then buy your VVV now, while it is relatively cheap because in 30 years time you might find that price ratio has gone from 2:1 up to 10:1!

I have the Nacional '67 and can tell you this port will out last all of us. Even with 6+ hours decanting, this port is still a baby by all definition. I've had several of 80's Nacional vintages and they are better than the Noval bottlings.

Is Nacional worth the money? I would say yes, as it is truly a rare product that is the best in class (can't say for every Nacional vintage). Is the value linear to price? No, it is not. In terms of current price and future price, Nacional is a wise investment.

Buying Nacional or VVV could be the best investment in your collection.