ThePortForum.com

The Plan
To taste, blind, a range of affordable Ports currently available for purchase in the UK.
To determine which is the best ‟daily drinker” currently available.
To consider whether the best ‟daily drinkers” are actually any good or not.
To decide whether the Ruby Reserve category of Port can be as good as the LBV.

Proposed date
2nd December 2010

Proposed location
The Crusting Pipe, Covent Garden, London

Potential Participants
JGH + 1
CHR + 1
AHB
DRT + 1
RAYC
Uncle Tom

Other participants are welcome, please either contact me or reply to this thread. This should be a fun, inexpensive, tasting so first-timers and lurkers are particularly welcome.

How it will work

NB. Due to having too much Port to drink in too little time, this may no longer apply to people who sign up after November 1st 2010, who may be invited to make a cash contribution to the bill instead (or something similar to be determined).

Each participant should bring to the tasting two bottles of Port. These should be relatively easily purchased in the UK (e.g. in an wine-merchant, supermarket or online). Their combined cost should be around £25. It is encouraged that they are different categories of Port (e.g. Ruby and LBV &c.).

Because the wines are to be tasted blind, participants are asked to PM jdaw1 before the tasting with three proposed purchases. jdaw1 will act as moderator and ensure that we do not have duplicate bottles.

The third bottle is important. If an attendee sends jdaw1 the names of just two ports, X and Y, and jdaw1 says ‟not X find another”, then the attendee would know that somebody else is bringing X. But if the attendee volunteers X, Y and Z, and jdaw1 says ‟bring Y and Z”, then maybe somebody else is bringing X, and maybe not. So attendees should PM jdaw1 the names of three possible ports.

On the night, bottles should be brought wrapped in tin-foil (or similar). We will then taste the wines blind, determine that we all like the Cruz basic ruby better than the Taylor 1945 and therefore sell our stocks of Vintage Port.

-Original Post-

On coming back from Portugal, I was asked a very interesting question: if you don’t currently own any Port but would like some what is the best Port for regular drinking? The catch, however, was that it had to be something actually available. Not an LBV picked up for £2.50 at Christmas; nor something bought at auction for some ridiculous discount. I was a bit stumped. Although I drink a fair bit of cheaper Ports, they are all oddities or bargains.

This fed into something else I was thinking in Portugal. I generally buy LBVs for regular drinking; I have very little Ruby or Ruby Reserve. But several times in Portugal we ended up drinking excellent Ruby Reserves and disappointing LBVs which were often twice the price of the Ruby.

I was therefore wondering if we could organise a tasting to answer these two questions. Namely: i) what are the best, readily-available Ports (and objectively, how good are they) and ii) is the LBV category a waste of money?

The format I was thinking of was a blind tasting where everyone brings two bottles. One being c.£10 or less--which covers all the big shippers’ Ruby Reserves--and one being c.£15 or less--which would allow us to try some independents’ Ruby Reserves and most of the LBV range. If we had 10 people, we would then try 20 wines, being a good representative sample of daily drinking for the UK market.

It might not be very glamorous, but it might be fun, and perhaps would be the sort of easy-access tasting that might tempt a few lurkers out of the woodwork to attend a tasting

Would anyone be interested in such a tasting? Perhaps early in December for a warm-up for the Christmas tasting?

I like the idea and will be up for it if 'baby brother' allows!

I would certainly be interested in this. Like Jacob, I only tend to buy these when they are on offer from supermarkets so the range I have tasted is failry limited. It would be good to have a tasting of 4 flights: Ruby, Ruby Reserve, Filtered LBV & Unfiltered LBV.

DRT wrote:It would be good to have a tasting of 4 flights: Ruby, Ruby Reserve, Filtered LBV & Unfiltered LBV.

Disagree: you shouldn’t be given the clue of whether this is LBV or plain ruby. Allow yourself to discover a ruby that you love and that costs £5.

jdaw1 wrote:

DRT wrote:It would be good to have a tasting of 4 flights: Ruby, Ruby Reserve, Filtered LBV & Unfiltered LBV.

Disagree: you shouldn’t be given the clue of whether this is LBV or plain ruby. Allow yourself to discover a ruby that you love and that costs £5.

Julian,
That's the best advice I've seen in a long time. Allow only one person to know the full line up, and let him serve them blind to everyone else.

I may have to steal this idea from you guys and do it on this side of the pond....if you agree to let me.

I think it's an excellent idea, and absolutely should be served blind. Andy - let me know if you do put a tasting like this together!

Here in Seattle the top-end Ruby Reserves and LBVs are pretty close to the same price. Graham's Six Grapes is $20-$22. Warre's Warrior is $18-$20. Taylor's 2003 LBV is $18-$22. Smith Woodhouse's 1995 LBV ranges is $22 to $24. I can find all kinds of LBVs right around $20, while good Ruby Reserves don't drop much below $17-$18.

I've always felt that the LBVs offered by far the better value, but then again I've never done a blind tasting. I might be surprised to find out that I actually like the better Reserves as much as the LBVs.

Andy Velebil wrote:Allow only one person to know the full line up, and let him serve them blind to everyone else.

No. Everybody knows the bottles they have brought, and nothing else. Everything stays hidden until the WOTN voting is complete.

Placemat maker (which might be me): don’t forget /BottleLabelsNumCopies 2 def.

I like the idea and would suggest, if we can, that late November or very early December (ie between Oscar night on November 8 and the Christmas offline on December 16) would be good timing.

My slight variation might be to suggest that each person brings one ruby (or ruby reserve) and one LBV, both of which must be available from retailers the weekend before the tasting. All ports served blind as suggested n

Alex: by restricting it to one of each, people get clues. If the first tasted is thought to be ruby, that suggests that the second is LBV. Remove the information by requiring ‟two bottles, each of which must be either ruby or LBV, not necessarily different”.

Should bottles be labelled with numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, !), with lower-case Greek letters (α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, !), or with initials and a prime (JGH, JGH”², DRT, DRT”², AHB, AHB”², !)? Or initials in italics and bold (JGH, JGH, DRT, DRT, AHB, AHB, !)?

You need a date.

Is this restricted to ruby/ruby reserve or lbv?

You can get some nice crusted ports for under £15 - are they out of the running?

jdaw1 wrote:Alex: by restricting it to one of each, people get clues. If the first tasted is thought to be ruby, that suggests that the second is LBV. Remove the information by requiring ‟two bottles, each of which must be either ruby or LBV, not necessarily different”.

Everyone brings one of each.

One person bags all of the bottles but does not label them, optimally with some amount of randomization included to break up the pairs. A different person labels the bagged bottles, with or without further randomization.

This ensures that you actually have both Ruby Reserves and LBVs at the tasting while allowing the tasting to be nearly double blind for all but the first person, for whom it is merely single blind.

Everybody brings bottles wrapped in foil. They go onto a table. Somebody, not knowing who brought what, adds the sticky labels α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, !. Each participant might be able to recognise his owns bottles and foil, but will know nothing about the others.

Advantage: maintains symmetry all people are of equal status.
Disadvantage: doesn’t cope well with late-comers.

Derek and I each own a set of these, which might be insufficiently numerous to be helpful here.

RAYC wrote:Is this restricted to ruby/ruby reserve or lbv?

You can get some nice crusted ports for under £15 - are they out of the running?

Very fair question. How about ‟two bottles of port, each ordinarily available at ≤£15”. Which would also simplify the problems relating to blindness.

You need a date.

This sounds good, and from the look of previous tastings could potentially be the first time that corkage fee outstrips collective acquisition cost!

A few further thoughts:

i) does "actually" available mean something anyone could pick up from the supermarkets or large off-license chains, or do bottles that you know are available over the internet or from a particular retailer near you (but that are not "widely" available) qualify?

ii) having one of your bottles as ruby/reserve should be encouraged - I like Jacob's idea of using those (rather than VPs) as a benchmark test for the lbv/crusted category. I think original idea of setting two price points worked well - eg: one under £10, the other not more than £15 (or £18, which would cover purchases of Niepoort & some of the more mature LBVs available?)

iii) is it worth seeking out a non-attendee who would be willing to monitor purchases and have everyone disclose their intended purchase (ahead of buying) in order to avoid duplication of ports? Or is there enough variety that we are confident there will not be 3x each of Croft Indulgence, Dow's Midnight and Six Grapes?!

I also have a set of the blind covers, which could be accessorised with a ribbons to produce green 1, blue 1, red 1 (like a tombola). With sufficient randomisation, the late arriver would not know what was on the table already, and therefore not know where his/her(!) bottle ended up.

I’m glad there’s some interest in this tasting

I think it might be a mistake to be overly prescriptive about things. Perhaps everything could be simplified to ‟bring two bottles of Port, wrapped in foil, having been recently purchased for £25-£30”? The reason for suggesting that one would be less than £10 was just to increase the number of ruby reserves available since I was slightly worried that we’d end up with an all LBV tasting and I thought it would be nice to see how the cheaper versions of Port stood up to the more expensive. Crusted or even vintage would be welcome, too!

It might be worth having people contact a moderator (which I’m happy to be and thus taste semi-blind) just to avoid duplication.

More importantly; dates. I am aware we need to avoid the arrival of Ben the younger and the Christmas offline.

Shall we look at a week night in the weeks commencing the 22nd and 29th November? The only nights that don’t work for me then would be the 24th and 30th.

I suppose time-zone considerations makes a virtual offline with the USA impossible...

Available means not a once-off special something: one could buy some with a phone call or an internet connection.

I am unlikely to be an attendee, so could be chosen to have a veto over possible purchases. Perhaps people could suggest what is available to them, and I could do an assignment nearer the time?

JacobH: do you mean £25-£30 each, or total?

RAYC wrote:i) does "actually" available mean something anyone could pick up from the supermarkets or large off-license chains, or do bottles that you know are available over the internet or from a particular retailer near you (but that are not "widely" available) qualify?

I think we can be fairly relaxed as long as it would be feasible for someone to attend the tasting, say ‟I like X” and then buy a bottle or case. The Internet is therefore obviously fine and I think independents should be, too, as long as they aren’t selling off their last ten bottles of 1989 Warre Traditional LBV at £10 each.

RAYC wrote:ii) having one of your bottles as ruby/reserve should be encouraged - I like Jacob's idea of using those (rather than VPs) as a benchmark test for the lbv/crusted category. I think original idea of setting two price points worked well - eg: one under £10, the other not more than £15 (or £18, which would cover purchases of Niepoort & some of the more mature LBVs available?)

I would never say ‟no” to a Niepoort LBV

RAYC wrote:iii) is it worth seeking out a non-attendee who would be willing to monitor purchases and have everyone disclose their intended purchase (ahead of buying) in order to avoid duplication of ports? Or is there enough variety that we are confident there will not be 3x each of Croft Indulgence, Dow's Midnight and Six Grapes?!

I’m happy to act as moderator, or I could see if Caroline would do it since she is likely to be less susceptible to label bias.

jdaw1 wrote:I am unlikely to be an attendee, so could be chosen to have a veto over possible purchases.

That might be the best idea, if you wouldn’t mind (and are unable to attend). I’m sure we could arrange for a sample of the WOTN to be sent as compensation!

jdaw1 wrote:JacobH: do you mean £25-£30 each, or total?

Total, certainly.

JacobH wrote:I’m sure we could arrange for a sample of the WOTN to be sent as compensation!

Deal.

Though, as I live in a Port-free country, I add a plea for a taste of the runner-up.

jdaw1 wrote:

JacobH wrote:I’m sure we could arrange for a sample of the WOTN to be sent as compensation!

Deal.

Though, as I live in a Port-free country, I add a plea for a taste of the runner-up.

Would you be willing to act as the Moderator to ensure there is no duplication and that everyone is playing by the rules? The reward being a package delivered to Paris* containing samples of all the wines tasted at the event?

* The package should arrive by December 2040 when all the lazy frogs who are currently on strike will be dead or retired.

I’d be very happy to act as moderator, and any package that might arrive would be a pleasant bonus.

But don’t bother paying postage for the bad-’uns.

jdaw1 wrote:But don’t bother paying postage for the bad-’uns.

That was why I thought it would be sensible not to make any commitments to sending the runner-up. It would be a bit unfortunate to have to send that in the event of a good-Port duck or the like. Though, of course, in that eventuality, I’m sure we could arrange an airlift of decent Port...

JacobH wrote:Shall we look at a week night in the weeks commencing the 22nd and 29th November? The only nights that don’t work for me then would be the 24th and 30th.

23rd would be out for me.

December 2 would be perfect for me as I need to be in London that day anyway.

Alex

Could just be my first day back at work! Pencilled in...

Where? The Crusting Pipe?

In the thread entitled [url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=37525#p37525]Software that makes placemats[/url] DRT wrote:A trend has been established recently that made me think of a suggested improvement to the software. By "trend" I mean something that has ocurred on at least 5 consecutive occassions.

It would perhaps be useful if all placemets designed for use at the Crusting Pipe would automatically generate a bonus space for the inevitable late addition of a Sandeman 1982?

I'm in for me and a +1, please.

and someone needs to bring in a ringer that can stand up to the youthfulness of a ruby like a fonseca 85.

otherwise you don't realy know if you're wasting your money.

First draft of the placemats.

• I have guessed at The Crusting Pipe: please confirm.
• Please inspect page 37. I have guessed for DRT; others should specify in this thread.
• DRT: please say more about your +1, and who is responsible for the +1’s port purchasing.

(Some edits added.)

My +1's name is Nick and he will be brining his own bottles.

I would like to confirm attendance.

I will match DRT for starter, desert and cheese.

My main will be ribeye, rare. Can't recall if bernaise is on the menu - if it is i will take that, but i suspect i would have ordered it last time so maybe one for the suggestion box.

Is the pre-allocated space for S82 admitting defeat? Who knows what the house port might be once stocks of that are depleted - don't Davy's have an unusually large stock of RO82 that they presumably need to shift...?!

Davy’s TCP Oct2010 menu wrote:Peppercorn or mushroom £2.00. Horseradish and tarragon butter £0.75

In the thread entitled [url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=37525#p37525]Software that makes placemats[/url] DRT wrote:A trend has been established recently that made me think of a suggested improvement to the software. By "trend" I mean something that has ocurred on at least 5 consecutive occassions.

It would perhaps be useful if all placemets designed for use at the Crusting Pipe would automatically generate a bonus space for the inevitable late addition of a Sandeman 1982?

RAYC wrote:Is the pre-allocated space for S82 admitting defeat?

So, should I obey attendee DRT?

RAYC wrote:I will match DRT for starter, desert and cheese.

JDAW has guessed my choices partly incorrectly. But as we do not know which menu will be available we cannot yet choose.

DRT wrote:

RAYC wrote:I will match DRT for starter, desert and cheese.

JDAW has guessed my choices partly incorrectly. But as we do not know which menu will be available we cannot yet choose.

Typically, month-to-month, only one or two items change. Give us the best you can with the menu there is. If, on the day, there is a relevant change and you are not yet there to cope, a carnivore will make a sensible decision on your behalf.

Pate
Ribeye (MR)
Cheese to share

DRT wrote:Pate

Mackerel pâte, or Chicken liver pâte?

jdaw1 wrote:

DRT wrote:Pate

Mackerel pâte, or Chicken liver pâte?

Chicken liver pâte, please.

g-man wrote:and someone needs to bring in a ringer that can stand up to the youthfulness of a ruby like a fonseca 85.

otherwise you don't realy know if you're wasting your money.

Fonseca 1985 will obviously be much darker than any rubies. What we need is a Fonseca 1920...

I have attempted to update the first post with a list of potential participants. If I have made any mistakes, please let me know.

Updated draft of the placemats.

• More people, more of the Greek alphabet.
• Updated food choices, which are now on page 49.

You have a problem growing. JGH BMHR DRT AHB RAYC JNO CHR (?) is seven people. Two bottles each, plus DRT’s S82, makes 15 glasses, which needs three sheets of A4. (And I’ve added two extra, for a last-minute participant.) This has become a non-small tasting. The boardroom is too tiny; you need a tunnel. (The other active thread needs a tonnel, but that’s different.)

Each attendee should PM jdaw1 with the names of three ports that can be brought, some combinations of which cost ≤£30.

The extra bottle is important. If an attendee sends jdaw1 the names of just two ports, X and Y, and jdaw1 says ‟not X find another”, then the attendee would know that somebody else is bringing X. But if the attendee volunteers X, Y and Z, and jdaw1 says ‟bring Y and Z”, then maybe somebody else is bringing X, and maybe not. So attendees should PM jdaw1 the names of three possible ports.

JacobH: please add these words, or similar, to the first post.

jdaw1 wrote:JacobH: please add these words, or similar, to the first post.

Done.

In the first post of this thread JacobH wrote:On the night, bottles should be brought wrapped in tin-foil (or similar). We will then taste the wines blind, determine that we all like the Cruz basic ruby better than the Taylor 1945 and therefore sell our stocks of Vintage Port.

The two bottles are to have a total cost of ≤£30. Assume that one bottle is free: where oh where is JacobH buying T45 at £30 a bottle?

jdaw1 wrote:

In the first post of this thread JacobH wrote:On the night, bottles should be brought wrapped in tin-foil (or similar). We will then taste the wines blind, determine that we all like the Cruz basic ruby better than the Taylor 1945 and therefore sell our stocks of Vintage Port.

The two bottles are to have a total cost of ≤£30. Assume that one bottle is free: where oh where is JacobH buying T45 at £30 a bottle?

‟Taylor 1945” being used as an archetype for an expensive Port, rather than one present at the tasting...

I have received port availabilities from Nick Oakley, Derek Turnbull, and Alex Bridgeman.

JacobH wrote:

jdaw1 wrote:

In the first post of this thread JacobH wrote:On the night, bottles should be brought wrapped in tin-foil (or similar). We will then taste the wines blind, determine that we all like the Cruz basic ruby better than the Taylor 1945 and therefore sell our stocks of Vintage Port.

The two bottles are to have a total cost of ≤£30. Assume that one bottle is free: where oh where is JacobH buying T45 at £30 a bottle?

‟Taylor 1945” being used as an archetype for an expensive Port, rather than one present at the tasting...

So should one of us sneak in a bottle of modest quality vintage port into the blind line up to and see what gets voted at WOTN?

CHR + 1 added.

AHB wrote:So should one of us sneak in a bottle of modest quality vintage port into the blind line up to and see what gets voted at WOTN?

The sneaking in of a modest or quality vintage port seems welcome if possible without detection. Otherwise, we could do some calibration with a Sandeman 1982...

jdaw1 wrote:I have received port availabilities from Nick Oakley, Derek Turnbull, and Alex Bridgeman.

And Ben Read.

I will allocate nearer the time, of course being mindful of the constraints and possible pleasures of such a tasting.

Updated draft of the placemats.

• +CHR’s +1 (more details please);
• +ρ, +σ;
• Food orders updated do add yours.

This is becoming a large tasting. Eight people, plus a spare, so eighteen Greek letters plus S82, this requiring four sheets of A4 (it would be three without the S82).

The organiser might like to consider declaring an upper limit on the number of attendees, an upper limit strictly fewer than fourteen.

jdaw1 wrote:This is becoming a large tasting ... The organiser might like to consider declaring an upper limit on the number of attendees, an upper limit strictly fewer than fourteen.

If we end up with more than 8 people I think 2 bottles each is too many. This is an after work tasting that will include a meal. Typically we get about 2.5 to 3 hours tasting time at these events before people start rushing off for trains. 28 bottles would be too many to do justice to in that time. We would also have a glasses problem at TCP and, if we want to have all the wines on the table at the same time, a table size problem. I think the most wines we have had out at TCP at one time is around 16, and that's tight in a tunnel.

A suggestion: if more people want to join the tasting they do not bring bottles, they buy their place at the table by contributing £30 plus the cost of their own meal towards the food bill.

It is not unknown for people coming to tasting to bring an extra bottle. If the budget is one each, somehow there’s an average of 1¼ each. It happens.

Given the constraints of this tasting, the organiser might wish, this time only, officially to discourage such generosity. Or even ban it.

DRT wrote:

jdaw1 wrote:This is becoming a large tasting ... The organiser might like to consider declaring an upper limit on the number of attendees, an upper limit strictly fewer than fourteen.

If we end up with more than 8 people I think 2 bottles each is too many. This is an after work tasting that will include a meal. Typically we get about 2.5 to 3 hours tasting time at these events before people start rushing off for trains. 28 bottles would be too many to do justice to in that time. We would also have a glasses problem at TCP and, if we want to have all the wines on the table at the same time, a table size problem. I think the most wines we have had out at TCP at one time is around 16, and that's tight in a tunnel.

I think you’ve missed the biggest problem: the Greek alphabet only has 24 letters so we would also need a placemat re-think.

In all seriousness, I think these are all fair comments. Do other participants feel that 16 bottles is a fair number for this tasting or too many or too few? Part of my thinking for suggesting that each person brings two was that fewer than 10 Ports might make it a bit of a sad tasting and that because we would be awash with t-corks, taking remainders home wouldn’t be a problem.

If the consensus is for 16, then I think DRT’s suggestion is sensible.

I am more relaxed about people bringing an extra bottle in a fit of generosity, as long as they are aware of the unusual nature of this tasting and that we might have to re-use glasses (or the like) to cope.