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The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 07:23 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
Split from A northern port tasting by jdaw1.
If, before opening the 1851, the average age was 30 years, then Tom has about 3650 bottles. If 20 years, then 3930 bottles. If 40, 3370; and if 50, 3090.
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 08:07 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by PhilW
jdaw1 wrote:uncle tom wrote:According to my computer, opening the 1851 reduced the average age of the bottles in my cellar by all of 13 days..
If, before opening the 1851, the average age was 30 years, then Tom has about 3650 bottles. If 20 years, then 3930 bottles. If 40, 3370; and if 50, 3090.
An interesting and suprisingly revealing statistic if you expand on the above since it places a hard upper limit, as well as a fairly small range. Of course what it mostly does is make most of us jealous (or maybe that's just me
)
Sounds like an excellent selection of port drunk by all, will be interested to read the reviews
Phil.
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 08:14 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
It was actually thirteen days plus a number of hours, and the average age of my cellar is just under 29 years - Julian's maths looks about right..
Tom
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 08:21 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
Assuming exactly 29 years (before the ’51 was opened), and a change of ”“13¼ days, gives 3611 bottles.
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 08:48 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
The actual current numbers are:
Average age: 28 years, 10 months, 2 days, 15 hours and 23 minutes
Total number of bottles of VP: 3503
Tom
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 08:58 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by PhilW
uncle tom wrote:The actual current numbers are:
Average age: 28 years, 10 months, 2 days, 15 hours and 23 minutes
Total number of bottles of VP: 3503
Tom
just.... wow....
I recently attended a wedding at one of the Cambridge colleges, and at the meal was considering asking them to see their cellar, just out of interest; little did I know there was a far, far more impressive one just down the road!
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 09:34 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
The actual content of the Cambridge college cellars is always a bit of a mystery, and the stuff of rumour..
..those under Trinity are said to be immense, but largely empty now. In the days when almost all port was UK bottled, Trinity bottled a ruby for everyday student consumption that was affectionately known as TCP (Trinity College Port)
JDAW might be able to expand on what actually lurks below those hallowed halls..!
Tom
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 10:09 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
jdaw1 wrote:3611 bottles.
uncle tom wrote:Total number of bottles of VP: 3503
Given the imprecision of the clues, I don’t feel disgraced.
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 10:10 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
uncle tom wrote:JDAW might be able to expand on what actually lurks below those hallowed halls..!
A lot less than was there. They have been selling, and not replenishing.
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 14:35 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by RAYC
uncle tom wrote:The actual current numbers are:
Average age: 28 years, 10 months, 2 days, 15 hours and 23 minutes
Total number of bottles of VP: 3503
Tom
Do you give your half bottles, 75cl bottles and magnums equal weights when calculating average age? If so, do you have a separate "average age of VP in your cellar" statistic?
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 15:00 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
Do you give your half bottles, 75cl bottles and magnums equal weights when calculating average age? If so, do you have a separate "average age of VP in your cellar" statistic?
I have only two half bottles of VP in my cellar but do have a small number of magnums and two double magnums.
As well as an overall bottle count of 3503 I also have a 'VP as 75cL' count - which currently numbers 3514
Tom
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 15:24 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
uncle tom wrote:I have only two half bottles of VP in my cellar but do have a small number of magnums and two double magnums.
As well as an overall bottle count of 3503 I also have a 'VP as 75cL' count - which currently numbers 3514
We need to gain 11 × 75cl. The two halves are ”“1 of these; the two double-magnums are +6. So we need 6 more: hence the ‟small number of magnums” is six.
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 15:47 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
We need to gain 11 × 75cl. The two halves are ”“1 of these; the two double-magnums are +6. So we need 6 more: hence the ‟small number of magnums” is six
Correct: - 4 x Morgan '66, 1 x Croft '66 & 1 Delaforce '70
Tom
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 16:27 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by RAYC
Which means, somewhat impressively, that each day that passes adds nearly 10 years of further bottle age to your VP collection in aggregate.
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 16:33 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
Indeed, and the aggregate total now exceeds 100,000 years..!
Tom
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 16:38 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
He means 100,000 bottle years, as previously discussed
here and
there and not needing re-discussion.
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 18:31 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by g-man
jdaw1 wrote:He means 100,000 bottle years, as previously discussed
here and
there and not needing re-discussion.
i thoguht the unit of measure was bridgeman? as discussed
here
100,000 bridgemans
Re: A northern port tasting
Posted: 19:23 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by RAYC
This clearly does need re-discussion.
A Bridgeman, to my understanding (though KillerB may need to confirm), is simply standard measure of how much a cellar will age in one year based on a 75cl bottle of port. Therefore Tom's VP cellar of 3503 bottles will age by 3514 Bridgemans in this calendar year, implying a Turnbull Time of 2 hours, 29 minutes and 40 seconds. However, those rough and ready calculations overlook: a) old bottles of vintage port that were bottled in 70cl bottles (rather than now-standard 75cl); and b) aggregate ullage across the cellar - both of which should arguably be taken into account when calculating Bridgemans.
What i'm not so sure about is whether Bridgemans (or, for that matter, bottle years) can be used as a measure of aggregate cellar age (rather than change in cellar age over time), since the 2 - 3 years in cask at the outset does not seem to be easily accomodated by either concept.
In any event, the posts under Derek's TN links probably deserve a linked split so i can write my review.
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 19:52 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
RAYC wrote:In any event, the posts under Derek's TN links probably deserve a linked split so i can write my review.
Split from A northern port tasting by jdaw1.
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 19:57 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
How many bottles of VP are there, anywhere?
Rephrased in cosmological terms: what is the Turnbull Time of the Universe?
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 21:10 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
How many bottles of VP are there, anywhere?
- Insufficient!
Moving on..
..project Cellar #2 reaches a critical point tomorrow with the casting of the roof slab..
..nearly ten tons of readymix (grade C35) will be poured into shuttering that has cost about £700 to assemble, and is supported by nearly 30 Acrow props.
The roof slab will be 21cm thick complete with a layer of heavy reinforcing mesh. Hopefully this will be sufficient to bear a 3ft mantle of soil once the concrete has cured (the cross span is 2.05m)
The nightmare scenario of course would be the collapse of the shuttering as the concrete is poured..
..I rather hope it doesn't!
Tom
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 21:25 Wed 27 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
uncle tom wrote:The nightmare scenario of course would be the collapse of the shuttering as the concrete is poured..
The nightmare scenario would be a collapse after being filled with fine vintage Port.
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 12:17 Thu 28 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
Now spattered with cement, I can confirm that the lid pour passed off without incident this morning!
The concrete will now be allowed to go off for an hour before being covered in polythene to stop it drying out too quickly.
The props will be left in situ for seven days, at which point the concrete will have gained 75% of its eventual structural strength.
After removing the shuttering, I will then ice the top with a liberal coating of hot tar, and paint the sides with a bitumen paint. Once that is done, the lid will be mounded over with soil and clay to give a minimum of 3ft cover (including the concrete)
Work left to do includes fitting the door, lighting and security systems; the internal screeding, tiling and staging, and the installation of four large wine racks. I will also install equipment to monitor the temperature and humidity - it will be interesting to see how much seasonal deviation I get from the year round average of 9.5C.
Hopefully I will be able to start installing bottles by the beginning of September - the cellar has the capacity to hold 5,000.
Tom
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 13:07 Thu 28 Jul 2011
by g-man
hey can you post a link to the wine racks you use?
i'm looking for inspiration
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 14:03 Thu 28 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
This is my supplier:
http://www.sorrells-wineracks.co.uk/win ... -racks.php
I like the traditional design, with double depth holes, as it is inexpensive and space efficient.
However I do make one small modification when I take delivery. The problem with this design is that the horizontal metal bar at the front has a bad habit of catching and tearing the back labels of bottles when they are removed. To prevent this I cut small pieces of 2" silver duct tape and neatly wrap them over each of the bars - if you do it carefully, you don't notice it's there. The glue on duct tape quickly fouls blades and scissors BTW - but a quick squirt of lighter fuel works wonders!
The other bits of advice I would give when installing this type of rack (if it's of any size) is to have a piece of wood and rubber mallet to hand as you install it, in order to straighten it up a little (they tend to twist a bit when transported) and also to place it on a piece of 1" plywood rather than directly on the floor, else you will tend to scrape your knuckles when placing or removing bottles from the bottom rung..
Tom
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 14:08 Thu 28 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
Better than plywood, is to place the rack on a layer of loose bricks. All with the same alignment, and with generous gaps between them. Make sure that each wooden strut is supported front, back and middle.
That lifts the rack clean off the floor, and protects the wooden rack from any micro-flood of up to a couple of inches.
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 15:02 Thu 28 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
and protects the wooden rack from any micro-flood of up to a couple of inches.
The rack itself is not particularly vulnerable to temporary flood damage - the critical point comes when the water reaches the front labels of the first row of bottles.
Even with an inch thick ply base directly on the ground, that's well over four inches of flooding..
..however, if space is not at a premium, it does save your back if the bottom row is well off the ground. In the cellar under construction, the ply bases are being supported by two courses of brickwork.
Tom
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 16:38 Thu 28 Jul 2011
by jdaw1
uncle tom wrote:The rack itself is not particularly vulnerable to temporary flood damage - the critical point comes when the water reaches the front labels of the first row of bottles.
Temporary, once-off: agreed.
But one might hope that a rack and some of its contents would last a good fraction of a century. In a cool wet climate, apparently to become wetter and more unpredictable, it seems like cheap prevention.
Cellar floors can be damp: keep wood off them.
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 17:44 Thu 28 Jul 2011
by uncle tom
Cellar floors can be damp: keep wood off them.
Which is why I give the ply a good drenching in Cuprinol first, and then leave it outdoors for a couple of weeks to allow the smell to blow off..
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 07:43 Mon 01 Aug 2011
by JacobH
Are you planning on keeping everything on racks and not in bins, Tom?
In my last job, having a 2.5'' skirting on the book-shelves saved at least £10,000 of damage when we had 1'' of flooding in the (basement) library so it’s certainly something I would always include!
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 08:03 Mon 01 Aug 2011
by uncle tom
Are you planning on keeping everything on racks and not in bins, Tom?
Bins only really make sense when you're a producer who needs to store many dozens of the same wine.
For storing single full dozens, bins occupy much the same space as a rack, and cost more to construct. For smaller quantities, the cost and space inefficiencies are horrendous. Bottles stored in bins also suffer much more label degradation than those in racks, especially if the humidity is high.
Tom
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 21:43 Wed 17 Aug 2011
by SushiNorth
jdaw1 wrote:uncle tom wrote:The rack itself is not particularly vulnerable to temporary flood damage - the critical point comes when the water reaches the front labels of the first row of bottles.
Temporary, once-off: agreed.
But one might hope that a rack and some of its contents would last a good fraction of a century. In a cool wet climate, apparently to become wetter and more unpredictable, it seems like cheap prevention.
Cellar floors can be damp: keep wood off them.
Time for me to weigh in on this one. All from personal experience:
1) Concrete cellar floors are cold; they naturally condense water and -- if the humidity levels are not being actively re-balanced -- a floor can develop quite a puddle during a humid month.
2) Wood softens under moisture (whether the source is humidity or flooding). Soft wood is a much early risk than rotted wood if there is significant weight on the wood. Get the wood up off the floor, or make sure it is heavily reinforced at ground level.
3) You would be surprised what a small flood can do. Empty bottles laying on the floor filled with water after just a couple inches; avoid keeping the neck of any full bottle below the 6" mark, and install some kind of warning system (or drainage system, or sump pump) to ensure water cannot rise to that level.
Having seen my collection threatened by basement flooding this past spring, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 08:12 Thu 18 Aug 2011
by uncle tom
Although the humidity level in my cellar is normally around the 80% mark, and the floor is made of concrete, there has never been any condensation.
Looking at it scientifically, you get condensation when warm moisture laden air contacts a colder object. Unless the cellar floor is actively refrigerated to depress the temperature, the temperature of the air and that of the floor should be much the same.
If you are getting condensation problems in your cellar, then that suggests you have a temperature fluctuation problem as well.
Alternatively, it might not be condensation at all, but a seepage of ground water..
Tom
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 09:09 Thu 18 Aug 2011
by jdaw1
Cheap insurance: a layer of loose bricks, an inch apart, under the wine racks.
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 09:50 Thu 18 Aug 2011
by RAYC
jdaw1 wrote:Cheap insurance: a layer of loose bricks, an inch apart, under the wine racks.
Or simply fill the bottom row with RO82?
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 11:07 Thu 18 Aug 2011
by jdaw1
RAYC wrote:Or simply fill the bottom row with RO82?
No. Then water will reach the bottom wooden struts, which will soften and rot, and the whole rack will need replacing. Lift the wood clear off the floor. Bricks are strong, even with space between them in which water can sit (and so not mortared together). The weight keeps them immobile, and they are undamaged by water. Put the bricks upside down so that water cannot sit in them.
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 11:46 Thu 18 Aug 2011
by uncle tom
Be aware when supporting traditional racks that they bear a considerable load when full of bottles, and that the load is narrowly focused on the front and rear edges of the rack.
There is no need to provide support across the entire base of the rack.
Tom
Re: The ageing of Uncle T’s cellar
Posted: 02:30 Sat 27 Aug 2011
by Glenn E.
jdaw1 wrote:Cheap insurance: a layer of loose bricks, an inch apart, under the wine racks.
While bricks are good, cinder blocks are better. The extra height off the floor could be important.