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DRT and I have photographed an undated wine list, and need to estimate its date. Given that the only non-Port vintage wines were as follows, please estimate its date, giving reasoning.







It might be that this question would receive better answers on another wine bulletin board. If you are a member of such a BB, please do repost it, sending a link to DRT and jdaw1, or posting it in this thread.

I would assume that the list was probably from around 1923-27'ish time frame. Given that top tier vintage champagne is usually released around 6-10 years after harvest that would put it early to mid 1920's as the most probable time frame.

Andy,

I know you are a member of a few dry wine forums - could you please post this question (or a link to this thread if allowed) on some of those?

Thanks
Derek

Heidsieck Monopole tend to release their dry Champagne quite soon after the vintage. However, Ayala tend to hold them in their cellars for longer before release. I would have guessed late 1910s to 1920 - say 1917-1920.

Are there no other clues?

Interesting: thank you.

Also interesting that neither of you used the Hocks, which, for my estimate, was the main source.

AHB wrote:Heidsieck Monopole tend to release their dry Champagne quite soon after the vintage. However, Ayala tend to hold them in their cellars for longer before release. I would have guessed late 1910s to 1920 - say 1917-1920.

Are there no other clues?

I have no specific view on this other than to wonder if champagne made during the 1st world war would / could have made it to the UK before 1919 or so? I am not exactly sure when France was liberated though.

jdaw1 wrote:Interesting: thank you.

Also interesting that neither of you used the Hocks, which, for my estimate, was the main source.

In my case, this is because I know nothing about Hock or the gap between vintage and release.

I also know hardly anything about Hock, except that you usually can now get hold of German wines quite soon after release. A little searching suggests either 1st May or 1st September in the year after harvest is now required by the VDP, for example.

Andy Velebil wrote:I would assume that the list was probably from around 1923-27'ish time frame.

jdaw1 wrote:Given that the only non-Port vintage wines were as follows

So the youngest vintage wine on the list was six years old?

Entirely possible not knowing the name of the restaurant.

I've seen some wine menus back in the olden days and rarely did a restaurant hold a huge stock of wine unless they were specially specialized in such.

Also, typically restaurants will list their older bottles first followed by younger ones.

However in this particular instance I differ on the date and because of the depth of champanges, I'd say this was probably a restaurant specializing in wines. De Venoge, Ayala and Lemoine are small negotiants or growers and even today not often found.

I think this could possibly be a list from the 1950s - 1960s

As reference.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/15/dinin ... d=2&src=pm

this is the list from 1945 from 21 club has for example a 1904 margaux for 17.5$.

I can't find it, but I've also seen a list from edit: Antoine's restaurant (in new orleans) circa 1920s and I can tell you the 1900 clarets and champagnes were in the range of 3-9$. (dollars not pounds)

Wine didn't even really take a large jump in price until the past 2-3 decades.

Assuming Hock is the British term utilized for german wine, I can only assume that the prices below are in pounds.

Sterling to dollar conversion int he 50s were ~3x which would put these bottles around 45$ in the 1950s. Steep for a recent release, but entirely reasonable fora 30-40 year old bottle.
If this were the 1920s, where the conversion was 5 to 1, that would mean yer paying well over 100$ for a recent release champagne. I seriously doubt there'd be enough drinkers to maintain such extravagance back in the day to sustain a list like that esp after the first great war.

So my guestimate is that this particular list must be either mid 50s or early 60s.

g-man,

These prices are in shillings and pence. The most expensive wines are 17/6 (17 shillings and 6 pence), which is £0.875 per bottle. I think that makes a significant difference to your theory

Derek

My reckoning was that budget Hock, not even from a specific vineyard, would be drunk before three years. At a pinch, and not necessarily a nice pinch, five years.

jdaw1 wrote:My reckoning was that budget Hock, not even from a specific vineyard, would be drunk before three years. At a pinch, and not necessarily a nice pinch, five years.

Have you tried asking a specialist? There are some German Wine Enthusiasts who might be able to help, albeit if not on a public forum.

DRT wrote:g-man,

These prices are in shillings and pence. The most expensive wines are 17/6 (17 shillings and 6 pence), which is £0.875 per bottle. I think that makes a significant difference to your theory

Derek

O!

okay I agree with previous assessments that this was probably a list from 1918-1925

jdaw1 wrote:My reckoning was that budget Hock, not even from a specific vineyard, would be drunk before three years. At a pinch, and not necessarily a nice pinch, five years.

http://www.wineanorak.com/BBR1909pricelist.pdf

from Jaime Good's blog

a scan of BBR's offering list from 1909

Good idea. The Niersteiner is NV; but there is a vineyardless Steinberger 1893, so sixteen years old. Interesting. The youngest two (not oldest) are 1904, so five years old. Interesting.

I own a number of old wine lists. Below is some information gleaned from a few of them that might help with this:

Evans & Marshall (1892)

>> Youngest Vintage Claret 1890 at between £6 to £18 per hogshead.

>> Niersteiner (undated) 1/6 per bottle Duty Paid. (6/- on JDAW's list)

Fergusons of Reading (1922) (not an apostrophe crime by me)

>> Charles Heidsieck Extra Dry 1914 at 13/- per bottle (15/- on JDAW's list)

>> Youngest Champagne 1914

>> Nierstien Hock (undated) at 5/- per bottle (6/- on JDAW's list)

Ellis & Co. (1951)

>> Heidsieck, Dry Monopole 1945 at 30/- per bottle

>> Youngest Champagne 1945

>> Niersteiner Domthal (undated) at 12/6 per bottle

Stowells of Chelsea (1969)

>> Charles Heidsieck Extra Dry 1962 at 46/3 per bottle

>> Youngest Champagne 1962

>> Niersteiner (various 1963 to 1966) at 16/6 to 21/11 per bottle


It seems that there is consistency over eight decades that the youngest vintage champagne on a wine list tends to be 7 or 8 years old, suggesting a date of 1922/23 for JDAW's list.