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In light of recent experience (below), I'm interested in people's opinions on ideal decant times, both in general and particularly in relation to bottles with initial cork taste.

The recent experience:
On Friday night I opened and decanted an Offley 85. Cork whole, not dried out; decant went fine.
- 0 hr after decant - very heavy 'cork' flavour. Didn't panic, left for 24hr as planned anyway.
- 12hr after decant - strong cork flavour (yes, I tried a sip in the morning, so shoot me!)
- 24hr after decant - still fairly strong cork flavour, but drinkable; very good flavour underneath the cork (strong fruit, very spicy smell and flavour, well balanced aside from the cork) - drank half the bottle; went well with gorgonzola.
- 48hr after decant - had intended to drink rest, but something came up, so...
- 72hr after decant - Wow. Cork flavour gone. Superb port remaining, delicious fruit, slightly sweet and full of spices; very, very nice. Drank rest of bottle, wished I had more left.

Usually I would decant 8-24hrs ahead and expect the drink the bottle within 48hrs, however the above experience makes me think there are some other processes at work which I could do with understanding better. The quality of the port at 72hrs was astounding and a huge surprise to me, given it's condition at 24hr post-decant. Thooughts, views, explanations welcome

Phil.

Hmmm. Are you sure it was corked?

I can't think of an experience (or of hearing of one before this) where a corked wine recovered with decanting. VA and bottle stink are two flaws that can be eliminated, or at least improved, with air time, but my understanding is that once a wine is tainted with TCA it stays tainted, and normally gets worse the longer you leave it exposed to the air.

I agree with DRT's assertion that once it's corked, it stays corked.

DRT wrote:Hmmm. Are you sure it was corked?

g-man wrote:I agree with DRT's assertion that once it's corked, it stays corked.

Indeed, that has always been my understanding too. For (non-fortified) wine, I've only ever had one bottle which was corked, and it was absolute vinegar, so the problem was obvious. I tried to be fairly careful in my post not to claim the port was corked, only to state it had a (strong) 'cork' taste; this could be a crucial distinction, perhaps.

From my (limited) understanding of the chemical processes involved, I'm don't think I'm suggesting that a 'corked' wine has recovered here; I guess I'm saying that I realise I don't understand what has occurred, so am trying to explain as clearly as possible the apparent evidence and see if those such as yourselves with wider knowledge and experience may be able to identify the process. It could well relate to a known flaw which I have insufficient experience to accurately identify.

I've thought of a few possible reasons for the behaviour, but rather than proposing them to be shot down (yet), I'm hoping the effect might be recognisable to someone. Indeed the best case scenario would be if there were a known cause that was avoidable or manageable somehow.

I'll post some more thoughts later if the above isn't sufficient for someone to identify the issue.

Phil.

Phil - do you mean a "cork" flavour/taste in a literal sense, or one of the flavours usually associated (for me, at least) with "corked wine" (mustiness, wet cardboard, mildew, old sports bag etc.)? The vinegar flavour you describe sounds more to me like oxidisation than cork taint, but someone more experienced than i may be able to comment more definitively.

As i understand, there are other faults that can, as you say, lead to a similar result - i remember reading somewhere that excessive sulphur can make a wine smell like mouldy cheese, though i've no idea whether a wine suffering from this affliction can improve over time with aeration.

RAYC wrote:Phil - do you mean a "cork" flavour/taste in a literal sense, or one of the flavours usually associated (for me, at least) with "corked wine" (mustiness, wet cardboard, mildew, old sports bag etc.)?

It's difficult to be definitive on that point in retrospect; In my mind I do mean it literally, but I would also associate the smell of wet cork as a musty smell anyway.

RAYC wrote:]The vinegar flavour you describe sounds more to me like oxidisation than cork taint, but someone more experienced than i may be able to comment more definitively.

Yes; I've been re-reading through various places including here and here, and regarding the 'vinegar' wine I tasted, that was definitely oxidised (was also discoloured), which I would previously have referred to as being corked (the failure assumed to be that the cork had dried out and/or the seal had failed, allowing too much air in the bottle causing oxidisation) - is this therefore an incorrected use of the term 'corked'? It is obviously different from 'cork taint' which appears to specifically mean TCA.

A couple of interesting nuggets from those pages:
1. Sensitivity to TCA can vary by an order of magnitude from person to person
2. The nose quickly acclimatises to TCA, so it becomes less obvious on each sniff
3. TCA *can* apparently be simply removed, by soaking some Polyethylene in the port for a minute or two

(1) would explain why some people feel the port is 'corked' and others do not; (2) has an interesting consequence for tastings, in that a subsequent port is less likely to be noted as containing TCA as an initial port, as the nose may have become desensitised sufficiently; (3) appears to be more than pseudo-science, and prompts me to find something suitable made of Polyethylene for future use, either a container into which the intial decant could be performed (prior to returning to glass decanter or bottle) or something (a stick?) which could be placed into the decanter for a few minutes either as part of a standard decant method, or in 'emergency' on finding TCA on tasting.
[edit: separating the issue of TCA removal to a separate thread, here]

Going back to the original issue; The smell I noted in this case is more like the condition affecting the initial bottle of Graham 85 at the June informal, rather than that which affected the Nierpoort at the same informal which Alex identified as TCA. Maybe I'm just slowly confusing myself - think I need a drink

[edit: I just realised that I might be slandering Alex, so I went back and checked; sure enough Alex identified the Nierpoort at that offline as being VA tainted, not TCA, which is far more consistent - and apologies to Alex for the mis-quote]

Phil.

PhilW wrote: 1. Sensitivity to TCA can vary by an order of magnitude from person to person

I think i would agree with this - especially when it comes to wine that is only exhibiting minor taint. I have been at TPF tastings where a port that tastes a bit mute or flat is declared corked by consensus, whereas I can detect no obvious imperfection other than a lack of fruit. Neither do i seem to be particularly sensitive to VA. Which i suppose is good, in a way!

PhilW wrote:2. The nose quickly acclimatises to TCA, so it becomes less obvious on each sniff

Personally, i don't find this (though have heard other people mention the phenomenon). Again, especially where the taint if minor, it might take a while for my mind to distinguish the exact nature of the imperfection (beyond "hmmm...this is a bit dubious"), but once identified the particular corky characteristic in the wine becomes hard for me to overlook. Possibly coupled with the fact that, as mentioned by Derek, the taint itself has a tendency to become more obvious as the port spends time in glass.

[albeit i can understand the principle anecdotally, having just loaded the washing machine with kit worn for 2 weeks of cycling in near 40 degree heat...and not having noticed quite how terrible it was whilst the trip was in progress!]

Having time on my hands, I did a bit of browsing.

It would appear that the phenomenon described by Phil has been experienced before on these boards and discussed here, and an interesting theory of "TCA migration to surface" posited.

I don't agree that TCA disappears with each sniff but it does show up more apparently if the glass has a chance to sit a little after pouring.

I liken its properties to the smell of bleach, it never goes away no matter how many times you've been sniffing it.

At a restaurant 2 years ago, I had a bottle of grahams 77 decanted at the start of appetizers at a steak house. the table behind me just had their butter laden steaks delivered and when I sniffed the tasting glass i missed it.

When we finished our steaks, the cork taint was noticeable, but other drinkers at my party didn't notice it. Our waiter was gracious enough to bring out a second bottle and side by side you could defintiely smell the distinctive cork taint.

PhilW wrote:1. Sensitivity to TCA can vary by an order of magnitude from person to person
2. The nose quickly acclimatises to TCA, so it becomes less obvious on each sniff
3. TCA *can* apparently be simply removed, by soaking some Polyethylene in the port for a minute or two

1. Very true. I'm one extreme - I'm practically immune to TCA. There are witnesses present.
2. This is true of all smells. The human brain prefers new and exciting things. Something that you have been smelling continuously (or repeatedly) for a period of time will slowly seem to be less and less strong. Perfume is another example.
3. Yes but the process isn't perfect. Some who have tried it have said that while the Port no longer tastes and smells like TCA, it now tastes and smells like polyethylene. I've never tried it myself; refer to #1.

Glenn E. wrote:

PhilW wrote:1. Sensitivity to TCA can vary by an order of magnitude from person to person

1. Very true. I'm one extreme - I'm practically immune to TCA. There are witnesses present.

This witness testifies that the statement is absolutely true.

RAYC wrote:

PhilW wrote:2. The nose quickly acclimatises to TCA, so it becomes less obvious on each sniff

Personally, i don't find this (though have heard other people mention the phenomenon). Again, especially where the taint if minor, it might take a while for my mind to distinguish the exact nature of the imperfection (beyond "hmmm...this is a bit dubious"), but once identified the particular corky characteristic in the wine becomes hard for me to overlook. Possibly coupled with the fact that, as mentioned by Derek, the taint itself has a tendency to become more obvious as the port spends time in glass.

On reflection, while TCA detection by smell might be reduced on each smell, this does not necessarily mean that the same effect would occur with the tastebuds, which I think I had implictly assumed.

RAYC wrote:It would appear that the phenomenon described by Phil has been experienced before on these boards and discussed here, and an interesting theory of "TCA migration to surface" posited.

Thank you for finding that reference - very interesting to note someone else has experienced an apparently similar phenomena. I'll be interested to chat to Tom about it. One issue I did wonder about, in combination with a previous discussion on properties of glass and adhesion, was whether the particular decanter could also be an issue (though perhaps not).

g-man wrote:At a restaurant 2 years ago, I had a bottle of grahams 77 decanted at the start of appetizers at a steak house. the table behind me just had their butter laden steaks delivered and when I sniffed the tasting glass i missed it.

When we finished our steaks, the cork taint was noticeable, but other drinkers at my party didn't notice it. Our waiter was gracious enough to bring out a second bottle and side by side you could defintiely smell the distinctive cork taint.

Also interestingly, on the last day when I detected no taint, I had steak... probably a red herring since I tried the port before eating any, although I think I had just seared the steak.

I'll add one extra thought into the mix; I did notice right at the end of the decanter a very small amount of extremely fine sediment which had not been caught by my usual filtering through sterile medical gauze. Literally, I noticed no sediment until the last couple of drops which remained in the decanter had stood overnight. The port itself showed no cloudiness whatsoever on drinking.

This did make me wonder whether there could be some interaction whether TCA could be 'held' more strongly within sediment that within the liquid in the bottle. If this were true (and noted that this is complete conjecture), then a port with particularly fine sediment might possibly taste more significantly of TCA initially (when the sediment is more evenly distributed within the fluid), and less so after the bottle had stood for a long time. Further, if this fine sediment slowly adhered to the bottom of the decanter over time, this would increase such an effect. This could perhaps be tested after noting the port was 'good again' effect having occurred by leaving a final measure in the decanter and shaking the bottle vigorously before pouring and tasting to see if there is a significant increase in TCA at that time. This may be a little far-fetched, but is one of the type of scenarios I've been considering to explain the effect, assuming that the issue wasn't simply "your tastebuds were off that day, you had a cold" or similar!

PhilW wrote:This did make me wonder whether there could be some interaction whether TCA could be 'held' more strongly within sediment that within the liquid in the bottle. If this were true (and noted that this is complete conjecture), then a port with particularly fine sediment might possibly taste more significantly of TCA initially (when the sediment is more evenly distributed within the fluid), and less so after the bottle had stood for a long time. Further, if this fine sediment slowly adhered to the bottom of the decanter over time, this would increase such an effect. This could perhaps be tested after noting the port was 'good again' effect having occurred by leaving a final measure in the decanter and shaking the bottle vigorously before pouring and tasting to see if there is a significant increase in TCA at that time. This may be a little far-fetched, but is one of the type of scenarios I've been considering to explain the effect, assuming that the issue wasn't simply "your tastebuds were off that day, you had a cold" or similar!

One thought that occurs to me with this theory is that even filtered and fined white wines (which have the least sediment of any wine) can be corked; if the sediment affected the amount of taint then you would expect it to be far less common in white wines which I do not think it is.