ThePortForum.com

Axel P wrote:http://www.asiatatlerdining.com/hong-ko ... ports.html

Posted in a Hong Kong newsletter? If they translated that into Cantonese, folks, we are in trouble!

James Suckling wrote:And these are great wines that will improve for hundreds of years: vintages from the 18th and 19th centuries are drinking beautifully today.

A very misleading, if not entirely inaccurate statement.

As is this:

"Moreover, many producers are making table wines, so most of their best grapes are used for that instead of vintage port."

marc j. wrote:As is this:

"Moreover, many producers are making table wines, so most of their best grapes are used for that instead of vintage port."

Yeah I'd go so far as to say that's actually false. Their best grapes go into Port. The only way you can say that "most of their best grapes are used for [table wine]" is by including lesser grapes until you reach critical mass on your definition of "most."

But really... it's Suckling. Ever since his fiasco of a guest appearance at FTLOP I've basically put him into the same category as Parker. Overblow die-hards who are no longer relevant, if they ever really were with regard to Port.

This may upset some people but I really wanted to reach out and slap the guy for this. Especially after reading this part of it, which really got me irked up...

It's not difficult to be a vintage port expert,

I guess it is, since even the "port expert" named Suckling can't get his facts straight and write an accurate piece.

OK my rant is over...

One only needs to look at the drinking windows in his book of twenty odd years ago, to realise just how little he knew about port then..

..has he learned much since? There's not much evidence..

The very least he might have clocked is that asian palates tend to be tannin-averse, often extremely so...

..if I was preparing a list of top ports for asian buyers, they'd all be tawnies!

Tom

uncle tom wrote:One only needs to look at the drinking windows in his book of twenty odd years ago, to realise just how little he knew about port then...

I giggled when I read this. It seems Mr Suckling has moved from drinking windows of 5-10 years in his book to 200-300 years in his latest article. It's good that experience has widened his horizons.

AHB wrote:

uncle tom wrote:One only needs to look at the drinking windows in his book of twenty odd years ago, to realise just how little he knew about port then...

I giggled when I read this. It seems Mr Suckling has moved from drinking windows of 5-10 years in his book to 200-300 years in his latest article. It's good that experience has widened his horizons.

uncle tom wrote:One only needs to look at the drinking windows in his book of twenty odd years ago, to realise just how little he knew about port then..

..has he learned much since? There's not much evidence..

The very least he might have clocked is that asian palates tend to be tannin-averse, often extremely so...

..if I was preparing a list of top ports for asian buyers, they'd all be tawnies!

Tom

i happen to be an asian buyer!

g-man wrote:

uncle tom wrote:One only needs to look at the drinking windows in his book of twenty odd years ago, to realise just how little he knew about port then..

..has he learned much since? There's not much evidence..

The very least he might have clocked is that asian palates tend to be tannin-averse, often extremely so...

..if I was preparing a list of top ports for asian buyers, they'd all be tawnies!

Tom

i happen to be an asian buyer!

Therein lies the danger of sweeping generalisations and stereotypes

i happen to be an asian buyer!

As a regular visitor to China and Thailand I've been intrigued by the reactions I've had to the bottles I've brought. I've also discovered (the hard way..) that their are some flavours that the Mandarin Chinese enjoy, that to the western palate are utterly repugnant.

In Thailand there are clear ethnic divides - the minority ethnic Chinese (who own most of the real estate and generally run the country, but are also present at all levels of society..) have a very different reaction to tannins to the ethnic Thais. When offering a glass of wine to a Thai citizen, I can tell in advance from their facial appearance whether they will lap it up - or grimace.

Therein lies the danger of sweeping generalisations and stereotypes

Granted. However, the magazine Suckling was writing for appears to be targetted at the nouveau riche Mandarin Chinese, who are almost universally tannin-averse.

uncle tom wrote:When offering a glass of wine to a Thai citizen, I can tell in advance from their facial appearance whether they will lap it up - or grimace.

Do you think this is a physiological thing or simply the same phenomenon that would occur if you offered someone in London a glass of snake blood with boiled cat?

Over the course of my life I have found that taste is very much an acquired thing. The total absence of something in anyone's diet makes it strange to them when they first taste it. Until I grimaced at my first cup of coffee, first pint of ale, first glass of wine, first snail, first mushroom, first sprig of broccoli, etc I didn't learn to enjoy them*. Isn't this what you are experiencing when you visit parts of the world that never have access to tannic wines?

Derek

* Clearly, I was joking about liking the broccoli

Do you think this is a physiological thing

Genetic; without doubt. It's quite interesting to observe.

The reverse observation can be made with the rice-based spirit that the Chinese like to warm themselves up on - to us it smells like sweaty socks, and is really repellant; but the Chinese guzzle the stuff quite happily..

uncle tom wrote:

Do you think this is a physiological thing

Genetic; without doubt. It's quite interesting to observe.

The reverse observation can be made with the rice-based spirit that the Chinese like to warm themselves up on - to us it smells like sweaty socks, and is really repellant; but the Chinese guzzle the stuff quite happily..

Sorry, this is not a convincing argument at all. Lots of cheese smells like sweaty socks and we eat it. What you are describing is a cultural difference, not something physical. I am absolutely certain that a Thai infant adopted by western parents who was never exposed to the tastes of its birth parents would easily "adopt" those of the culture in which it was raised. There simply isn't enough genetic difference between the various branches of the human race to support your theory.

Have you come across any genetic research that supports your theory or is this purely based on your experience of taking a few bottles of wine to share with friends?

Lots of cheese smells like sweaty socks and we eat it.

Sweaty socks is the nearest descriptor - try it and you'll see what I mean..

What you are describing is a cultural difference, not something physical.

No, not at all - there's nothing new about palate variations being genetically linked. Indeed, I recall that when we were taught genetics at school; the biology master went round the classroom with a dropper, putting a drop of a liquid (I forget it's name) on everyone's tongue. Most found it very bitter, but a percentage of the UK population gain no taste perception from it at all - a genetic variation, not a cultural one.

uncle tom wrote:

What you are describing is a cultural difference, not something physical.

No, not at all - there's nothing new about palate variations being genetically linked. Indeed, I recall that when we were taught genetics at school; the biology master went round the classroom with a dropper, putting a drop of a liquid (I forget it's name) on everyone's tongue. Most found it very bitter, but a percentage of the UK population gain no taste perception from it at all - a genetic variation, not a cultural one.

OK - that allowed to me to find lots of websites talking about the ability to taste or not taste bitterness, which is linked to our evolution as plant-eating foragers. What I didn't find is any inference or suggestion that different modern day races or different regions of the planet were specifically affected one way or another. This seems like a huge gap in the research if what you are saying is true.

It also doesn't explain why people in the far east drink so much tea or why they invented sweet and sour chicken

I drink alot of dry reds and I 'll have to say that I'm pretty tannin adverse as it physically roughens my tongue making the wine pretty unenjoyable.

I just had a tasting for my tech guys and alot of them are indian and never really drink wine.
Every one told me the merlot wine I served was "too dry". Which I found amusing as I put it in for a wine for those that may be tannin adverse.

I buy the genetic taste buds, but I feel that the taste of something is acquired.

And Derek, sweet and sour chicken is not tannic!

g-man wrote:And Derek, sweet and sour chicken is not tannic!

Another "Brit humour v American" fail

uncle tom wrote:Sweaty socks is the nearest descriptor - try it and you'll see what I mean..

Actually, I have tried it. Lots of it, in many variations, and i've not found one i'd call sweaty socks.

One of my other pursuits beyond Port has been asian alcohols (often grain alcohols). Certainly sake -- which ranges from flowers to fruits -- but also the chinese, korean, and thai rice wines. One or two, like xioaxing, are very pungent. Others are more white-spirit like, and I had several bottles of Baiju at DaDong in Beijing. It was quite enjoyable. I've yet to find a sweet alcohol, all of those are quite dry, but I'm still looking for some of the fruit based ones. As with any wine, such as the port preferred by most Portuguese, locals often drink cheap alcohol that doesn't taste very good.

This may be helpful: https://www.eykhoff.nl/Wine%20in%20China.pdf
Ignore the fact they talk about wine in china, but use the kanji for sake on a japanese masu as their title logo.

As for asians in general avoiding tannic wines, so do most people I know when they first begin their wine pursuits. But as any BBQ at g-man's will convince you, asians drink LOTS and LOTS of tannic wines.