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Whilst on may travels recently, and having fully consumed the bottle I took with me with indecent haste; I was reduced to buying port over the bar of my hotel.

The bottle was Cockburn's Special Reserve, but with the Symington name now rather prominant in the small print..

My previous take on CSR was of a rather heavy, slightly earthy and noticeably aromatic wine (although not terribly refined in that department)

However, the wine proferred seemed altogether lighter, fruitier, and probably more heavily filtered.

Not a retrogade step, IMO, but different..

..or was this just a maverick bottle??

Tom

Tom,

For the past few years the wine that goes into CSR has been made by the Symingtons and the blend is now theirs. I have heard others say good things about the recent bottlings so must try some myself.

It is rather ironic that a company that sold its soul to the devil half a century ago to focus on ruby reserve rather than Vintage Port had to be sold to someone else in order to make good ruby reserve!

Derek

Yes, somewhere over the years since CSR was started it had gone down hill. When I last had it, in the old form, several years ago it was rubbish. It wasn't until the past 2-3 years that the Symington's have clean up CSR's act and turned it back into a very nice Port. Actually, a very good QPR worth buying again for a good cellar defender when you don't want to crack open a VP or LBV. My hat goes off to the Sym's for restoring this to its former glory.

Andy Velebil wrote:My hat goes off to the Sym's for restoring this to its former glory.

I'm keeping my hat on until they produce a consistently great string of VPs to rival those of the pre-1970s. That's the "former glory" I'm more interested in

Are there currently two different bottle shapes for CSR - one the tall modern-looking 1ltr bottle with squared shoulders and the second a more traditional-looking 75cl bottle?

Or is one of these old stock from the previous generation of CSR that should be avoided?

The tall modern looking bottle is the one released by Cockburn about three to four years ago. Some of these will contain pre-Symington wine but some might be the new stuff. The Syms launched a new "older" style bottle earlier this year so all of those will contain the new wine.

DRT wrote:The tall modern looking bottle is the one released by Cockburn about three to four years ago. Some of these will contain pre-Symington wine but some might be the new stuff. The Syms launched a new "older" style bottle earlier this year so all of those will contain the new wine.

Yes - sorry - was being lazy with google! Article - i guess they are being phased in.

So stick to the newer "traditional" style bottle to be sure. Newly-released LBV06 still appears to be in older "modern-style" bottle though.

The Symingtons appear to have abandoned the square shouldered bottles that were introduced by the old Cockburn management about two years ago, and have produced a new style; although the bottle I tried was the of the square shouldered type, but with the Symington name present; which I assume was using up old stock.

Producing a new bottle design is not cheap, and not an exercise to embark on lightly; especially when the market is only just getting used to the last design change; - so one wonders what provoked the new design..?

..talk to a small port producer about bottle supplies, and you are likely to get an outpouring of hurt indignation about the attitude of the glass manufacturers towards their smaller customers.

I can't help wondering whether the manufacturer of the square shouldered bottles thought they could hold out for an inflated price, as no-one else had the tooling (and, possibly, copyright..) - and have been taught an abrupt lesson by the new proprietors..

Tom

uncle tom wrote:The Symingtons appear to have abandoned the square shouldered bottles that were introduced by the old Cockburn management about two years ago, and have produced a new style; although the bottle I tried was the of the square shouldered type, but with the Symington name present; which I assume was using up old stock.

Producing a new bottle design is not cheap, and not an exercise to embark on lightly; especially when the market is only just getting used to the last design change; - so one wonders what provoked the new design..?

..talk to a small port producer about bottle supplies, and you are likely to get an outpouring of hurt indignation about the attitude of the glass manufacturers towards their smaller customers.

I can't help wondering whether the manufacturer of the square shouldered bottles thought they could hold out for an inflated price, as no-one else had the tooling (and, possibly, copyright..) - and have been taught an abrupt lesson by the new proprietors..

Tom

I think you could be reading too much in to this...it is natural to want to change a brand that you think is under-performing and have purchased with the view to turning-around. Once you have sorted out what goes inside the bottle, the bottle itself is the next most obvious thing to change.

According to the article in Packaging News a marketing agency were appointed shortly after Cockburn was acquired with the brief to ‟bring back the quality and distinctive character that made Cockburn’s such a huge success during the 1970s and 1980s” through the packaging redesign. This seems plausible to me.

uncle tom wrote:I can't help wondering whether the manufacturer of the square shouldered bottles thought they could hold out for an inflated price, as no-one else had the tooling (and, possibly, copyright..)

I actually thought the square shouldered design was very similar to a lot of the "premium" spirits on the shelves these days - eg: Chase Vodka

RAYC wrote:I actually thought the square shouldered design was very similar to a lot of the "premium" spirits on the shelves these days

Not suprising, given that the previous owner of Cockburn was Beam Global.

DRT wrote:

Andy Velebil wrote:My hat goes off to the Sym's for restoring this to its former glory.

I'm keeping my hat on until they produce a consistently great string of VPs to rival those of the pre-1970s. That's the "former glory" I'm more interested in

I was solely referring to CSR in the above remarks

The only bottles available here in the States I've seen is the square shouldered ones. I've yet to see a new-old style one but will keep my eye out.

Hello everybody, this is what we did with CSR.
When we bought the Cockburn's vineyards and lodges in 2006 we had to sign a supply contract with Beam to make Cockburn's Port for them, including CSR. All the wines had to be made to their specification. But we were not happy with the chill filtering that was being done. We had abandoned that years ago at Symington as we found it too aggressive and that it stripped quality. It took us a while, but we eventually convinced Beam and in our view the wine immediately improved significantly. It was about this time that they introduced the tall bottle with the flat shoulders. But the wine continued to be made by us to their style and specification, albeit without the drastic filtering.
In December 2010 we were finally able to buy the Cockburn's brand. As from then, we became totally free to make CSR exactly as we wanted. So over the first few months of 2010 we did a series of tastings with Charles here in our tasting room to find a new CSR style that we were comfortable with. We knew that the original CSR from the 1960's had a little more wood age than most of today's Reserve Ports and that it was a little drier as well. There has been something of a race to the bottom in the Reserve category over recent years to make the biggest and beefiest style, this inevitably makes them younger. It may win you points at the blind tastings (the powerful young fruit makes the wine stand out), but how often do you go back for a second glass? Some wines border on the aggressive. So we decided to respect the original style of CSR, using wines with a little more cask and vat age (some 9 to 12 months more than other Reserves) and maintaining the slightly dry finish on the palate. This wine, which I would not say is new, simply an evolution of the original CSR made in the 1960's, was used when we started using the new bottle and label in August this year. These bottles are already in wine shops around the world and are easily recognised as they are lower and more rounded in shape and much more similar to the original CSR. The important thing is not the new bottle or the new label; it is the wine in the bottle.
I must say that one of the best things that we inherited when we bought Cockburn’s was the vineyards. They were in general in superb condition. So we have used these, modified the wine making, the aging, blending , dropped the chill filtering and as from this year we were able to make up the final blends exactly to our preference, while respecting the Cockburn’s style.
With regard to the Cockburn's Vintage Ports, that is another major task that we have in hand. We are working hard on ways of rebuilding this, we have a long way to go, but the essentials are there.
Happy Christmas to you all.

The important thing is not the new bottle or the new label; it is the wine in the bottle.

- Amen to that!

Thanks for filling us in Paul - and a very happy Christmas to you too.

Tom

DRT wrote:

Andy Velebil wrote:My hat goes off to the Sym's for restoring this to its former glory.

I'm keeping my hat on until they produce a consistently great string of VPs to rival those of the pre-1970s. That's the "former glory" I'm more interested in

Paul Symington wrote:With regard to the Cockburn's Vintage Ports, that is another major task that we have in hand. We are working hard on ways of rebuilding this, we have a long way to go, but the essentials are there.

That is great to hear, Paul. We will be watching with interest!

Thanks for dropping by to inject some facts into our rumour and speculation about CSR

Merry Christmas.

Derek

Paul Symington wrote: It was about this time that they introduced the tall bottle with the flat shoulders. But the wine continued to be made by us to their style and specification, albeit without the drastic filtering.
...
So we decided to respect the original style of CSR, using wines with a little more cask and vat age (some 9 to 12 months more than other Reserves) and maintaining the slightly dry finish on the palate. This wine, which I would not say is new, simply an evolution of the original CSR made in the 1960's, was used when we started using the new bottle and label in August this year. These bottles are already in wine shops around the world and are easily recognised as they are lower and more rounded in shape and much more similar to the original CSR.

Interesting stuff - many thanks.

Perhaps it might be fun to acquire a bottle of each of the old and new styles (whilst both are still available on the shelves) to taste alongside each other - what do people think about including these as a couple of extras in a tasting soon?

DRT wrote:

DRT wrote:

Andy Velebil wrote:My hat goes off to the Sym's for restoring this to its former glory.

I'm keeping my hat on until they produce a consistently great string of VPs to rival those of the pre-1970s. That's the "former glory" I'm more interested in

Paul Symington wrote:With regard to the Cockburn's Vintage Ports, that is another major task that we have in hand. We are working hard on ways of rebuilding this, we have a long way to go, but the essentials are there.

That is great to hear, Paul. We will be watching with interest!

Ditto - two big surprises for me over the past couple of months have been the Cockburn 63 and Cockburn 60, both of which i thought were absolutely beautiful. I must admit i actually have not had that many young Cockburn VPs, but everyone was very excited by the Canais 09 at the BFT...hopefully the next one to reach that kind of quality will be released!

RAYC wrote:

DRT wrote:

DRT wrote:

Andy Velebil wrote:My hat goes off to the Sym's for restoring this to its former glory.

I'm keeping my hat on until they produce a consistently great string of VPs to rival those of the pre-1970s. That's the "former glory" I'm more interested in

Paul Symington wrote:With regard to the Cockburn's Vintage Ports, that is another major task that we have in hand. We are working hard on ways of rebuilding this, we have a long way to go, but the essentials are there.

That is great to hear, Paul. We will be watching with interest!

Ditto - two big surprises for me over the past couple of months have been the Cockburn 63 and Cockburn 60, both of which i thought were absolutely beautiful. I must admit i actually have not had that many young Cockburn VPs, but everyone was very excited by the Canais 09 at the BFT...hopefully the next one to reach that kind of quality will be released!

Perhaps this tasting should be repeated with decision-making representatives of the new owners in attendance?

Paul Symington wrote:With regard to the Cockburn's Vintage Ports, that is another major task that we have in hand. We are working hard on ways of rebuilding this, we have a long way to go, but the essentials are there.

Good news on CkSR; we look forward to the VPs being restored to their previous glory. For quite some time they were the most expensive shipper, 10% to 20% dearer than all the others. That was lost; perhaps some of it will return.

jdaw1 wrote:

Paul Symington wrote:With regard to the Cockburn's Vintage Ports, that is another major task that we have in hand. We are working hard on ways of rebuilding this, we have a long way to go, but the essentials are there.

Good news on CkSR; we look forward to the VPs being restored to their previous glory. For quite some time they were the most expensive shipper, 10% to 20% dearer than all the others. That was lost; perhaps some of it will return.

It is perhaps worth noting that one doesn't automatically become the best shipper by being consistently the most expensive

DRT wrote:It is perhaps worth noting that one doesn't automatically become the best shipper by being consistently the most expensive

But one might become the most expensive by being most likely to be the best.” 

”  This statement would be helped by the efficient market hypothesis. Alas this hypothesis is currently looking a bit ropey, but bankers have short memories.

Thanks for the explanation, Paul. Um bom ano 2012

Axel