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Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 22:15 Tue 07 Aug 2012
by jdaw1
Some pedants are, allegedly, annoyed by
Upside-Down Union Jacks.
Please send me photos of like crimes.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 22:39 Tue 07 Aug 2012
by RAYC
I thought it could only properly be said to be "upside down" when it is attached to flag pole (which provides the reference point for the broadest white diagonal, which should be uppermost nearest the highest point of attachment).
Otherwise, surely, whether it is "upside down" depends on which side you are looking at it from... (for an example of what i mean, see
here - which by your diagram / rule of thumb is "upside down", but i would argue is not)
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 06:00 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by jdaw1
Flagpole always deemed to be on the left, unless it isn’t.
Words to this effect have been added.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 06:47 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by mpij
Really don't care which way up they are, but on another point of pedantry, if this question is related to Olympics then surely you mean Union Flags not Jacks.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 07:39 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by jdaw1
mpij wrote:on another point of pedantry, if this question is related to Olympics then surely you mean Union Flags not Jacks.
Use of the term ‟Union Jack” to refer to the national flag of the United Kingdom has been sanctioned by the Admiralty and by Parliament.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 09:21 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by JacobH
Some of this pedantry seems to be aimed at the use of single- rather than double-sided flags, which will always cause problems when displayed in a window (though not as many problems as, e.g., the Saudi flag causes).
I also enjoy the reverse-pedantry on the choice of name of the flag
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 09:26 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by RAYC
jdaw1 wrote:mpij wrote:on another point of pedantry, if this question is related to Olympics then surely you mean Union Flags not Jacks.
Use of the term ‟Union Jack” to refer to the national flag of the United Kingdom has been sanctioned by the Admiralty and by Parliament.
Indeed -
The Flag Institute seem to suggest that qualms about using "Union Jack" in all circumstances is a relatively modern phenomenon.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 09:42 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by JacobH
RAYC wrote:jdaw1 wrote:mpij wrote:on another point of pedantry, if this question is related to Olympics then surely you mean Union Flags not Jacks.
Use of the term ‟Union Jack” to refer to the national flag of the United Kingdom has been sanctioned by the Admiralty and by Parliament.
Indeed -
The Flag Institute seem to suggest that qualms about using "Union Jack" in all circumstances is a relatively modern phenomenon.
Whilst both terms are in current use today, a pedant referring to the flag as the ‟Union Jack” is in the same category as one who adopts American ‟-ize” spellings when the words are of Greek etymology; it is clearly an example of reserve-pedantry, attempting to justify something that is commonly thought to be wrong¹.
However, since we are now engaging in that debate
I note that the ‟Parliamentary” approval quoted by that article is, in fact, a throwaway line at the end of an answer to a question by the
Earl of Crewe in reply to a question as to whether ‟the full Union Jack may be flown on land by every citizen in the Empire as well as on Government Offices and Public Buildings”. It seems to me to be a) not an example of Parliament’s approbation; b) perhaps more indicative of the government’s view than Parliament’s; and c) not really going to the question of the name of the flag.
[¹ not that such things are necessary wrong; I know I am guilty of it in a few places, too...]
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 13:50 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by jdaw1
JacobH wrote:Some of this pedantry seems to be aimed at the use of single- rather than double-sided flags, which will always cause problems when displayed in a window (though not as many problems as, e.g., the Saudi flag causes).
In some cases it might be that a flag was to be viewed from the other side of the window: in such cases, no photo was taken, nor criticism made. Where the flag would not be visible from the ‘correct’ side, or where there has been obvious inconsistency, then I have expressed disapproval.
The comment about the Earl of Crewe is noted with interest. He was responding, in Parliament, to a question on the subject of the flag, his answer not being in any way subsequently corrected or amended. How is that not definitive?
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 21:00 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by griff
Perhaps an absence of correction denotes acceptance rather than approval?
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 22:06 Wed 08 Aug 2012
by jdaw1
Two more flag crimes added.
And a link to the statement of the Earl of Crewe added to
the correct place.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 10:23 Sat 11 Aug 2012
by JacobH
jdaw1 wrote:The comment about the Earl of Crewe is noted with interest. He was responding, in Parliament, to a question on the subject of the flag, his answer not being in any way subsequently corrected or amended. How is that not definitive?
Two reasons. Firstly, the purpose of questions being asked in Parliament is to seek the view and scrutinize HM’s Government (
c.f.). The Earl of Crewe was, I think, the Lord President of the Council at that period and therefore a cabinet minister. His answer to the question is therefore an explanation of the views of the government, not of Parliament. For Parliament to give a view, there would need to be a resolution of both houses to that effect. Secondly, the question does not seem to relate to what the correct name for the flag is, but whether it can be flown. The Earl of Crewe may have simply not corrected the asker out of politeness.
Whilst I don’t disagree that there are many sources which support the use of ‟Union Jack” (though I wonder if many are from the last 25 years); that comment seems an odd one to rely on.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 10:35 Sat 11 Aug 2012
by jdaw1
A link to the previous post has been added.
And another flag-crime added.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 14:23 Sat 11 Aug 2012
by Andy Velebil
On a trip to London a few years ago JDAW taught me to spot a Union Jack improperly displayed. I now look at everyone to see who's done it right or wrong.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 14:28 Sat 11 Aug 2012
by DRT
Andy Velebil wrote:On a trip to London a few years ago JDAW taught me to spot a Union Jack improperly displayed. I now look at everyone to see who's done it right or wrong.
When looking for upside-down Union Jacks it is best to look at every one, rather than looking at everyone.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 18:14 Sat 11 Aug 2012
by Andy Velebil
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 18:36 Fri 07 Sep 2012
by DRT
Difficult to be sure, but I think the flag in the foreground is upside down. This is one of the official pictures on the Team GB Facebook page
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 06:45 Sat 08 Sep 2012
by Andy Velebil
DRT, you appear to be correct. Should someone inform them?
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 07:32 Sat 08 Sep 2012
by DRT
Andy Velebil wrote:DRT, you appear to be correct. Should someone inform them?
The Union Jack Chief of Police has been informed and will take whatever action he feels is appropriate
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 09:23 Sat 08 Sep 2012
by jdaw1
Please could somebody with Facebook expertise make, on the
TeamGB Facebook page, a post pointing to
www.jdawiseman.com/upside.html or to
twitter.com/jdaw1/status/244364511547637761. Thank you.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 17:50 Sat 08 Sep 2012
by DRT
- Screen shot 2012-09-08 at 18.49.21.png (73.08 KiB) Viewed 86522 times
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 12:27 Sat 24 Nov 2012
by DRT
Those who enjoyed this thread might also enjoy
this.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 13:08 Sat 24 Nov 2012
by jdaw1
DRT wrote:Those who enjoyed this thread might also enjoy
this.
You owe me five minutes of my life. Too much canned laughter; too little that was actually funny.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 20:03 Tue 14 May 2013
by jdaw1
Am I allowed to be particularly disappointed that, in
this BBC article, the BNP have the flag upside down?
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 20:54 Tue 14 May 2013
by djewesbury
Please, come to Belfast, where we can do a tour of upside-down Union Flegs.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 21:25 Tue 14 May 2013
by DRT
djewesbury wrote:Please, come to Belfast, where we can do a tour of upside-down Union Flegs.
Just as the Apostrophe Crimes thread pardons those whose first language is not English, this thread pardons those who choose to intentionally hang their Union Flags* upside-down.
* I have only just noticed the error in the thread title.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 21:31 Tue 14 May 2013
by jdaw1
DRT wrote:* I have only just noticed the error in the thread title.
The term has been sanctioned by Parliament, and the Admiralty. See the discussion starting with the fourth post in this thread.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 22:01 Tue 14 May 2013
by DRT
jdaw1 wrote:DRT wrote:* I have only just noticed the error in the thread title.
The term has been sanctioned by Parliament, and the Admiralty. See the discussion starting with the fourth post in this thread.
My reading of that debate is that you lost the argument, even though the others in the debate neglected to drive their arguments to a conclusion.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 00:48 Wed 15 May 2013
by djewesbury
DRT wrote:jdaw1 wrote:DRT wrote:* I have only just noticed the error in the thread title.
The term has been sanctioned by Parliament, and the Admiralty. See the discussion starting with the fourth post in this thread.
My reading of that debate is that you lost the argument, even though the others in the debate neglected to drive their arguments to a conclusion.
And once again, I say, come to Belfast, where we can discuss this in full and with people who really care!
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 23:21 Wed 15 May 2013
by DRT
djewesbury wrote:And once again, I say, come to Belfast, where we can discuss this in full and with people who really care!
In order to really appreciate the experience, do we have to have a power shower for half an hour?
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 23:34 Wed 15 May 2013
by djewesbury
DRT wrote:djewesbury wrote:And once again, I say, come to Belfast, where we can discuss this in full and with people who really care!
In order to really appreciate the experience, do we have to have a power shower for half an hour?
It's not just advisable, it's compulsory!
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 11:58 Thu 16 May 2013
by Alex Bridgeman
DRT wrote:djewesbury wrote:And once again, I say, come to Belfast, where we can discuss this in full and with people who really care!
In order to really appreciate the experience, do we have to have a power shower for half an hour?
With a mirror?
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 00:15 Fri 17 May 2013
by TLW
AHB wrote:DRT wrote:djewesbury wrote:And once again, I say, come to Belfast, where we can discuss this in full and with people who really care!
In order to really appreciate the experience, do we have to have a power shower for half an hour?
With a mirror?
Would likely result in a substantial increase in port consumption immediately thereafter.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 21:04 Sat 25 May 2013
by jdaw1
In the BBC’s
In pictures: Liverpool commemorates Battle of the Atlantic, go forward to the sixth slide, which has the caption ‟Standard bearers for the procession to the Merchant Navy memorial gathered outside the Cunard Building in Liverpool.”
Please could somebody else comment on the left-most flag. Does it match the proper arrangement of the
Red Ensign?
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 22:02 Sat 25 May 2013
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:In the BBC’s
In pictures: Liverpool commemorates Battle of the Atlantic, go forward to the sixth slide, which has the caption ‟Standard bearers for the procession to the Merchant Navy memorial gathered outside the Cunard Building in Liverpool.”
Please could somebody else comment on the left-most flag. Does it match the proper arrangement of the
Red Ensign?
I think it is fair to say that it is impossible to tell. I find that old chaps like these tend to be the last to be fooled. Also these look like rather official ensigns, not stitched by Eileen in accounts the night before.
I think we should ask Phil what he thinks.
EDIT: I think we should ask Phil to ask the D66 what it thinks.
Re: Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 05:15 Sun 26 May 2013
by Glenn E.
jdaw1 wrote:In the BBC’s
In pictures: Liverpool commemorates Battle of the Atlantic, go forward to the sixth slide, which has the caption ‟Standard bearers for the procession to the Merchant Navy memorial gathered outside the Cunard Building in Liverpool.”
Please could somebody else comment on the left-most flag. Does it match the proper arrangement of the
Red Ensign?
On my phone it appears not. The gold fringe visible down the center appears to be the staff side of the flag. If so, then the orientation visible just to its left appears to be reversed as that should be the "back" side of the flag, but appears to be the front side orientation.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 09:08 Sun 26 May 2013
by PhilW
djewesbury wrote:jdaw1 wrote:In the BBC’s
In pictures: Liverpool commemorates Battle of the Atlantic, go forward to the sixth slide, which has the caption ‟Standard bearers for the procession to the Merchant Navy memorial gathered outside the Cunard Building in Liverpool.”
Please could somebody else comment on the left-most flag. Does it match the proper arrangement of the
Red Ensign?
I think it is fair to say that it is impossible to tell. I find that old chaps like these tend to be the last to be fooled. Also these look like rather official ensigns, not stitched by Eileen in accounts the night before.
I think we should ask Phil what he thinks.
EDIT: I think we should ask Phil to ask the D66 what it thinks.
Last night was a VERY good night
I think the flag is correct; The most visible vertical length of gold braid on the left hand flag in the image appears to be connected to the [small metal figure on top of the pole; what are these called?] and then go along the length of the union jack part of the flag, which would make this the braid along the top edge of the flag when flown with flagpole vertical. With the flag pole at left and this braid across the top, the top right corner of the union jack can be seen to have the thinner white band above the thicker in this corner, making this the correct orientation. Yes, this matches the supplied link to Red Ensign.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 12:27 Sun 26 May 2013
by jdaw1
People seem to understand why it might appear dodgy, but as Daniel says, ‟old chaps like these tend to be the last to be fooled”. And Phil’s reasoning convinces. So it must be an illusion of the folds.
Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 13:02 Sun 26 May 2013
by djewesbury
PhilW wrote:
Last night was a VERY good night
How many glasses of water did you drink?
PhilW wrote:
[small metal figure on top of the pole; what are these called?]
I'd have said finial but the Interweb seems to think it is called 'the top'. Standards are falling (geddit??)
jdaw1 wrote:People seem to understand why it might appear dodgy, but as Daniel says, ‟old chaps like these tend to be the last to be fooled”. And Phil’s reasoning convinces. So it must be an illusion of the folds.
I presume it would be very difficult to get a red ensign wrong. This is based on a presumption regarding the type of people likely to be making them, or needing to, and also the availability of 'already-assembled' ensigns, obviating the need to construct one's own.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 13:31 Sun 26 May 2013
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:I presume it would be very difficult to get a red ensign wrong. This is based on a presumption regarding the type of people likely to be making them, or needing to, and also the availability of 'already-assembled' ensigns, obviating the need to construct one's own.
Which is why my observation was so tentative. It looked wrong, but just couldn’t be.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 21:54 Wed 29 May 2013
by DRT
It's not wrong. The bottom half is the most visible part and is correct. The folded mess at the top is what it is, a folded mess.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 22:14 Wed 29 May 2013
by Glenn E.
PhilW wrote:I think the flag is correct; The most visible vertical length of gold braid on the left hand flag in the image appears to be connected to the [small metal figure on top of the pole; what are these called?] and then go along the length of the union jack part of the flag, which would make this the braid along the top edge of the flag when flown with flagpole vertical. With the flag pole at left and this braid across the top, the top right corner of the union jack can be seen to have the thinner white band above the thicker in this corner, making this the correct orientation. Yes, this matches the supplied link to Red Ensign.
Now that I'm on a computer and not my phone, I concur.
Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 21:10 Sun 02 Jun 2013
by djewesbury
- ImageUploadedByTapatalk 21370207282.142844.jpg (34.04 KiB) Viewed 44286 times
Are any of these upside down?
(From the Government Art Collection, Tom Philips, screenprint and mixed media, 1976)
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 23:59 Mon 03 Jun 2013
by DRT
Apostrophe Crimes does not judge those whose first language is not English, so this thread should not judge those whose choice of artistic expression is not a classical style.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 20:32 Sat 08 Jun 2013
by DRT
{Please gloss over the the circumstances under which I noticed this}
The producers of
Britain's Got Talent have let themselves down this evening...
- Screen Shot 2013-06-08 at 21.27.04.png (572.86 KiB) Viewed 44241 times
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 10:48 Mon 22 Jul 2013
by jdaw1
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 15:41 Mon 22 Jul 2013
by Glenn E.
Clearly the flag is intended to be viewed from the bench, as the one (partially) draped over the back of the bench is also displayed correctly as viewed from the bench.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 05:44 Wed 24 Jul 2013
by Alex Bridgeman
I think you can quite clearly see the sleeve for the lanyard on the right hand side of the nearest flag, this taking precedence over the general assumption of the flagpole on the left. I would therefore argue that this flag is correctly displayed.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 07:46 Wed 24 Jul 2013
by DRT
AHB wrote:I think you can quite clearly see the sleeve for the lanyard on the right hand side of the nearest flag, this taking precedence over the general assumption of the flagpole on the left. I would therefore argue that this flag is correctly displayed.
But that presupposes that the corner nearest the gentleman's elbow is the top of the lanyard. If it is the bottom, the flag is upside down in more than one sense.
Re: Upside-Down Union Jacks
Posted: 09:07 Sun 13 Oct 2013
by djewesbury
The Chief Vexillologist has pronounced on 'jacks' and 'flags'. There is officially no difference.
