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While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑07:36 Sun 23 Apr 2023While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.

No objection.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:12 Sun 23 Apr 2023

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑07:36 Sun 23 Apr 2023While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.

No objection.

Fine by me also. FYI, the VPID includes photos of 75, 80, 82 and 90 for Petre's brand, while the tasting note index has notes for 90, 94 and 95. So at least six vintages in total, more than enough to justify its own abbreviation.

Alex Bridgeman wrote:While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.

Works for me.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑23:59 Wed 26 Aug 2020We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑23:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.

Three years ago we discussed Mourão ≈ São Leonardo, but failed to conclude. Using Mr for Mourão was unpopular. So should it be SL = São Leonardo for both?

I say yes: SL for São Leonardo and for Mourão. Objections? (Objections must be accompanied by a better suggestion.)

Quinta do Mourão has two brands: São Leonardo and Rio Bom. Miguel told me that they are the same wine but branded for different markets. I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels because... and it's only a vague memory... I think I was told that they do not own the rights to that brand much like Quinta do Silval does not own the rights to "Silval" on a label (Noval does).

Which is a long way of saying that I do not think that QM or Mr is appropriate, but also that SL should potentially only serve for SL-branded bottles. The other bottles should theoretically be RB.

Note that the precedent set by Dalva and Presidential does not seem applicable to me, as Dalva is the actual name of the company and Presidential simply a rebrand for North America. In this case both are brands only.

(Kopke and Porto Rocha is no longer an appropriate example, because though PR was originally re-launched for the NA market it now seems to be available in other markets and is more accurately a sister brand to Kopke rather than a market-specific re-brand like Dalva and Presidential.)

So... Yes for SL. I remain open to the idea of RB being treated as a rebrand of SL, but currently think it should be its own abbreviation.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑01:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels

https://www.portugalvineyards.com/pt/do ... 50368.html

jdaw1 wrote:

jdaw1 wrote: ↑23:59 Wed 26 Aug 2020We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑23:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.

Three years ago we discussed Mourão ≈ São Leonardo, but failed to conclude. Using Mr for Mourão was unpopular. So should it be SL = São Leonardo for both?

I say yes: SL for São Leonardo and for Mourão. Objections? (Objections must be accompanied by a better suggestion.)

I have only seen San Leonardo branding on their ports, both tawnies/Colheitas/white and vintage; so yes agree, SL.

Note that QdMourao has recently been sold, so we will have to wait and see what branding is used in future by the new owners.

MigSU wrote: ↑13:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023

Glenn E. wrote: ↑01:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels

https://www.portugalvineyards.com/pt/do ... 50368.html

Point taken. Though I was talking about Port, I wasn't aware that they used "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any table wine either.

SL = São Leonardo

has been added to the first post.

Dm = Dolamore?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑22:44 Fri 08 Sep 2023 First post has images of the current draft of the placemats.

Dm chosen as the abbreviation for Dolamore, as it was in October 2013 (second session, page 2, top). NB: Dl = Dalva; DM = Quinta Dona Matilde.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑09:41 Sat 09 Sep 2023 Dm = Dolamore?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑22:44 Fri 08 Sep 2023 First post has images of the current draft of the placemats.

Dm chosen as the abbreviation for Dolamore, as it was in October 2013 (second session, page 2, top). NB: Dl = Dalva; DM = Quinta Dona Matilde.

Ick. While allowed, having both DM and Dm seems ripe to cause confusion.

Perhaps Do for Dolomore?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑04:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023Perhaps Do for Dolomore?

Too much like Dow.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑04:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023

jdaw1 wrote: ↑09:41 Sat 09 Sep 2023 Dm = Dolamore?

Ick. While allowed, having both DM and Dm seems ripe to cause confusion.

Perhaps Do for Dolomore?

I'm less worried about Dm vs DM. We already have similarly VZ (Van Zeller) vs Vz (Quinta de Ventozelo), and I suspect there will be others.
Admittedly I've started pre-pending with"q" for the brands which are purely "Quinta de/da/do/dos/de la", which while not accepted here (for fairly judged brevity reasoning as much as anything else) does also help with these particular cases (Dm vs qDM, and VZ vs qVz).
I don't mind Do, but prefer Dm, for Dolamore.

Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:18 Mon 11 Sep 2023 Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.

While I do still prefer Do, this reasoning suffices for me.

Dm added to official list.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑04:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023Perhaps Do for Dolomore?

Also, Dolamore

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:18 Mon 11 Sep 2023 Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.

No good question should go unanswered; to the best of my knowledge:
- Dm : Dolamore BOB vintage port from 1966..1982
- BrDM : Barros Quinta Dona Matilde (single quinta) vintage port from 1982..2002
- (q)DM : Quinta Dona Matilde vintage port from 2007..present
and just to throw an anomaly in, since this is vintage port we're talking about, the Sainsbury BOB 1985 vintage port says on the label that it is Quinta Dona Matilde (with Barros only mentioned in small writing).
Anyway, I think we're good.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑01:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 Quinta do Mourão has two brands: São Leonardo and Rio Bom. Miguel told me that they are the same wine but branded for different markets. I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels because... and it's only a vague memory... I think I was told that they do not own the rights to that brand much like Quinta do Silval does not own the rights to "Silval" on a label (Noval does).

Which is a long way of saying that I do not think that QM or Mr is appropriate, but also that SL should potentially only serve for SL-branded bottles. The other bottles should theoretically be RB.

Would be nice to make a decision on this for an upcoming tasting in.... 5 days. I personally think Mo is suitable. Julian, apologies for not following the first rule of making placemats.

akzy wrote: Would be nice to make a decision on this for an upcoming tasting in.... 5 days. I personally think Mo is suitable. Julian, apologies for not following the first rule of making placemats.

I believe we did, and you're looking for SL30yt for your San Leonardo 30 year tawny from Quinta do Mourao.

Reading back this makes sense. Thanks Phil.

First post says:

SL = São Leonardo