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As a newcomer to port I really found the thread "When will the '94s be ready"
8www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7801 ) really interesting and informative.

Some people mentioned the adjective "mature" as opposed to simply "ready to drink".

I wonder when when a vintage port is mature.

Is it when all the fruit has gone and it tastes like, say, a 20Y Tawny? This you can tell very objectively.

Or is it when it has reached the age that one personally finds delicious? That would be very subjective and a very personal choice.

Or are there simply two kinds of maturities: the objective maturity and the subjective maturity that everyone has to decide for himself.

I would subscribe to the "two maturities" view, especially since I found this 2012 tasting note of a 1984 Warre LBV.
http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=55043
The Warre was compared to a 1967 Cockburn. I recently tasted the Cockburn and I had a 2000 Warre LBV two weeks ago. For me the young LBV was just right and delicious. I would not wait until it gets like the old Cockburn.

What do you think?

I use several different descriptions, all of which serve specific purposes.

"Ready to drink" means that it's out of its dumb phase, tastes good, and could be served at any time going forward without (significant) risk of another dumb phase. When others refer to a Port's 21st birthday, I think "ready to drink" and not "mature." Though "ready to drink" could easily happen years before the 21st birthday. I think most 1994s are ready to drink, though far from mature.

"Mature" means that it has lost its youthful fruitiness and has begun to slow down. I expect to see and taste secondary characteristics in a mature Port. It is no longer opaque in the glass, probably tends toward red colors instead of purple, and may exhibit some bricking around the rim. The fruit flavors tend toward red instead of purple/black or stone. Tannins should be integrated and smooth. A lot of 1980s, 1983s, and 1985s are reaching maturity. But not all - F85, TV87, G85, GC83, RP83, D80 are all counter-examples. I haven't had sufficient 1977s lately to make a call for that vintage, but I suspect that the non-flawed bottles are reaching maturity.

"At its peak" means, well, that it has reached its zenith and probably will not improve any further. I use "peak" somewhat loosely, though, because I don't mean to imply that it is about to decline. Most Ports will stay at their peak for many years, sometimes decades. They don't necessarily remain static during this time, either, but they're neither improving nor declining. Most 1960s and 1963s are at their peak to me, and even some 1966s. Most 1970s are still in that grey area between mature and peak to me.

Edit: "not" needed

What Glenn said +1.

I agree with Glenn’s reasoning, but not all of his facts. For me typical 1963s are past their peak: ∂/∂t is negative. But typical 1970s are at their peak: it isn’t clear whether another year will (slightly) improve or (slightly) worsen.

Of course, the ‘typical’ hides variation. Hutcheson of any vintage is long past it; whereas 1970 Nacional, Fonseca, Graham, Dow, Taylor (in about that order) all might manage a slight +ε. Indeed, the multiple uses of ‘slight’ emphasise that the peak is close: at the peak, ∂/∂t = 0.

jdaw1 wrote:I agree with Glenn’s reasoning, but not all of his facts. For me typical 1963s are past their peak: ∂/∂t is negative. But typical 1970s are at their peak: it isn’t clear whether another year will (slightly) improve or (slightly) worsen.

Of course, the ‘typical’ hides variation. Hutcheson of any vintage is long past it; whereas 1970 Nacional, Fonseca, Graham, Dow, Taylor (in about that order) all might manage a slight +ε. Indeed, the multiple uses of ‘slight’ emphasise that the peak is close: at the peak, ∂/∂t = 0.

Could we have a rule that posts are written in English? I am not a mathematician and have no intention of becoming one. In return, I agree not to cite chunks of Henri Lefebvre or David Harvey.

A super post from Glenn, making distinctions I found most helpful.

Glenn E. wrote:"At its peak" means, well, that it has reached its zenith and probably will not improve any further. I use "peak" somewhat loosely, though, because I don't mean to imply that it is about to decline. Most Ports will stay at their peak for many years, sometimes decades. They don't necessarily remain static during this time, either, but they're neither improving nor declining. Most 1960s and 1963s are at their peak to me, and even some 1966s. Most 1970s are still in that grey area between mature and peak to me.

Would "plateau" be a useful word for "peak"? In its earliest meaning as a largely flat area of high ground, it seems to capture this idea of neither improving nor declining. And works pretty well with Julian's idea of the 1963 Ports' having reached the end of the table-land, and started down the far side of the hill.

Later,

John

P.S. I am a (retired) mathematician, and so shall accept Daniel's judgment on matters of vocabulary.

John Owlett wrote:A super post from Glenn, making distinctions I found most helpful.

Glenn E. wrote:"At its peak" means, well, that it has reached its zenith and probably will not improve any further. I use "peak" somewhat loosely, though, because I don't mean to imply that it is about to decline. Most Ports will stay at their peak for many years, sometimes decades. They don't necessarily remain static during this time, either, but they're neither improving nor declining. Most 1960s and 1963s are at their peak to me, and even some 1966s. Most 1970s are still in that grey area between mature and peak to me.

Would "plateau" be a useful word for "peak"? In its earliest meaning as a largely flat area of high ground, it seems to capture this idea of neither improving nor declining. And works pretty well with Julian's idea of the 1963 Ports' having reached the end of the table-land, and started down the far side of the hill.

Indeed, "plateau" is another word often used when talking about Port. For me, though, it is imprecise as a Port may plateau multiple times. The "dumb phase" that many refer to could be considered one such plateau early in a Port's life, as most Ports in that phase seem to regress a little bit and then not change much at all for many years before emerging (sometimes suddenly) as a much nicer Port.

You are very correct that most Ports do plateau at (or around) their peaks. It's one of the glories of Port.

Glenn's post is very good and has highlighted that I am guilty of lazy descriptions when I refer to port being "mature" as opposed to "ready to drink". I shall try to remember in the future to make the distinction.

Going back to the original question, I tend to feel that port is "ready to drink" when it is about 21 years of age. "Ready to drink" in my mind means the tannins have softened, the fruit is plentiful but has changed from being "primary" - as in full of blackcurrant and blueberry - to develop more complexity with additional flavours of sultanas, tobacco and dates starting to appear. I would expect the acidity to be noticeable and providing quite a lot of balance for the sweetness of the fruit. Overall, I would expect a good port in this phase to give the impression of being an enjoyable drink but with clear potential that in another decade or two there will be less primary fruit and more toffee apple.