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An email just received:


Let the ranting begin.

Well I think that it's wonderful that Taylor is doing the right thing. Who could dispute the venerable and trustworthy name of Taylor belongs on every one of those bottles. I have been listening to old episodes of 'The Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy' of late and I am reminded of the line; 'when it comes to a choice between doing the whole thing all over again or taking the money and running, then I for one could do with the exercise'. Those who do not remember the series should pass over this post.

I like that it'll be launched at 9.30 am, presumably with toast or granola. Which will it go with better?

djewesbury wrote:I like that it'll be launched at 9.30 am, presumably with toast or granola. Which will it go with better?

Probably best with Krohnflakes.

DRT wrote:

djewesbury wrote:I like that it'll be launched at 9.30 am, presumably with toast or granola. Which will it go with better?

Probably best with Krohnflakes.

!!

DRT wrote:

djewesbury wrote:I like that it'll be launched at 9.30 am, presumably with toast or granola. Which will it go with better?

Probably best with Krohnflakes.

DRT wrote:Probably best with Krohnflakes.

This has an appalling greatness to it.

djewesbury wrote: !!

Glenn E. wrote:

LGTrotter wrote:This has an appalling greatness to it.

Such accolades are rare for one of my attempts at humour. I'm here all week.

Don't milk it.

djewesbury wrote:Don't milk it.

Agreed. Port doesn't go well with fatty liquids (excluding gravy, custard, clotted cream and any sauce you can have with a steak).

There seems to be a paucity of moaning in this thread which I find mystifying. Here we have a glorious opportunity to go on about something and all we get are puns. This should not be allowed to pass even though it has mostly been said already.

I’ll admit to being very disappointed with the title of the tasting at 14:45 on the 2^nd: “A New Tasting Approach Based on Emotional Expectations”. Really.

(Was that what you wanted?)

I suppose this is what they will be launching. Yet another ultra-premium bottling for trophy hunters.

RonnieRoots wrote:I suppose this is what they will be launching. Yet another ultra-premium bottling for trophy hunters.

That would be the old Krohn's, there is also an old white from around the same period. Taylor's is releasing a lot of these old Krohn's, as Krohn had plenty of old stocks when TFP acquired them.

Andy Velebil wrote:

RonnieRoots wrote:I suppose this is what they will be launching. Yet another ultra-premium bottling for trophy hunters.

That would be the old Krohn's, there is also an old white from around the same period. Taylor's is releasing a lot of these old Krohn's, as Krohn had plenty of old stocks when TFP acquired them.

The white (plus a second Tawny) is 1896, as I recall. Krohn released a limited supply of those as a pair... for €8000 as I recall.

Did anyone taste this at the day with David Guimaraens? Was that yesterday? Who went? Review please.

djewesbury wrote:Did anyone taste this at the day with David Guimaraens? Was that yesterday? Who went? Review please.

There was a tasting on Wed with David Guimaraens at which the different aged varietal components of were to be present (was it T94 plus each individual component separately aged in bottle? I forget which year it was to be); unfortunately I was unavailable due to other work commitments, as I think that would have been a fascinating event. I have no idea whether the "new" 1863 release was to be present.

I tasted the 64 recently and liked it so feck the pedants! That's what we Irish use when we want to be polite or when we are doing our Father Jack impressions.

Justin K wrote:I tasted the 64 recently and liked it so feck the pedants! That's what we Irish use when we want to be polite or when we are doing our Father Jack impressions.

Not wishing to be pedantic but is there a tasting note for this?

I think that the quality of the wines is not the moot issue here, (which it should be and yes, it is a bit pedantic) it is that Taylor is taking the kudos for another man's work.

I've said this before when a similar thread was started at the time the 1964 colheita was released. I see nothing wrong here. Taylor spotted an opportunity to generate some value from a transaction - they knew that when sold through their routes to market they would be able to achieve higher prices than would Krohn. They paid Krohn a fair price for their stocks of old wines - presumably something approximating to Krohn's estimation of the price at which Krohn could have marketed the wines - and are now using Taylor Fladgate knowledge and expertise to access different markets which will generate a better price. What's wrong with that? Surely (almost) everyone is a winner:-
Krohn's owners because they have got a lump of cash and no more headache in trying to run a marginal port company;
TFP because they have got some prime stocks of old colheitas which can be sold at a profit;
Consumers because they are now seeing stocks of port being released and made available that were impossible to get hold of before.

The only people who I can see losing out in this arrangement is the very small number of people who knew about the quality of Krohn's colheitas and were able to buy them prior to the sale. That's probably a hundred people or so, mainly here and/or FTLOP.

I for one applaud any corporate transaction where the economics for the transaction aren't based on cost cutting and sacking a load of people. If an acquisition can be supported by achieving a significant increase in the value of the assets purchased then good for the acquirer - they were able to do something that the selling company couldn't and true value has been added.

Incidentally, I overheard Stephen Spurrier talking to Amanda Lloyd of Taylor Fladgate the other day, discussing the Taylor 1964 colheita. Amanda was very clear and unambiguous in her statement that the wine used to make the blend was wine from the Krohn stock, which Stephen noted and no doubt will reflect in his tasting note when it comes out. TFP are not trying to hide the fact that these wines are Krohn wines - instead they are (rightly in my opinion) proud of the fact that they are the ones who are privileged to be able to offer these to the market.

So, in other words, stop being a bunch of grumpy old men and be happy for the rest of the world who would otherwise probably not have got to hear of these wines.

AHB wrote:stop being a bunch of grumpy old men

I fear it is much too late for that

For the record, I was persuaded by your argument last time and my comment above was merely a world class joke that achieved much critical acclaim. I sense a British Comedy Award could be in the offing.

DRT wrote:

AHB wrote:stop being a bunch of grumpy old men

I fear it is much too late for that

For the record, I was persuaded by your argument last time and my comment above was merely a world class joke that achieved much critical acclaim. I sense a British Comedy Award could be in the offing.

I shall watch the BAFTAs tonight to see whether you win the lifetime service to comedy award.

The last sentence of the first post wasn’t wrong.

jdaw1 wrote:The last sentence of the first post wasn’t wrong.

Agreed, but did you expect the longest and most intense rant to be in support of Taylor?

DRT wrote:

jdaw1 wrote:The last sentence of the first post wasn’t wrong.

Agreed, but did you expect the longest and most intense rant to be in support of Taylor?

Only because I haven't had time to compose an apposite riposte.

LGTrotter wrote:

DRT wrote:

jdaw1 wrote:The last sentence of the first post wasn’t wrong.

Agreed, but did you expect the longest and most intense rant to be in support of Taylor?

Only because I haven't had time to compose an apposite riposte.

Before you do, and I hope you will, I will say that having spent most of my career as a Project Manager it would be hypocritical of me to criticise this…

LGTrotter wrote:Taylor is taking the kudos for another man's work.

DRT wrote:

jdaw1 wrote:The last sentence of the first post wasn’t wrong.

Agreed, but did you expect the longest and most intense rant to be in support of Taylor?

Sure. There’s inevitably going to be a project-manager type about, who has become rich off the back of the workers, etc etc.

Edit: next post just seen.

Will the launch be overshadowed by the release of yet another rare old tawny by Graham's? Have just been watching this.
Funny how nobody balks at the Symingtons releasing old Graham tawnies that they weren't responsible for making. Perhaps in a few decades people will have stopped complaining about TFP releasing Krohn stock under their own label.

djewesbury wrote:Funny how nobody balks at the Symingtons releasing old Graham tawnies that they weren't responsible for making.

The Graham tawnies were made by Graham. And are sold under that name.

If they had been sold as “Symington Old Tawny”, then ranting would indeed be likely.

jdaw1 wrote:

djewesbury wrote:Funny how nobody balks at the Symingtons releasing old Graham tawnies that they weren't responsible for making.

The Graham tawnies were made by Graham. And are sold under that name.

If they had been sold as “Symington Old Tawny”, then ranting would indeed be likely.

You're being over-literal ( ). I mean that they are none of them Grahams, indeed for a time they put up quite a fight to prevent people who were from using the name Graham. None of it is of any consequence. Do you like it and can you afford it? Then drink it. Personally, I doubt I will be able to, and, separately, I question the wisdom of pushing a product which arguably already suffers from being perceived as a niche, luxury good into even more of an exclusive market. But that presumably just means that I will be drinking more Quinta de la Rosa and Passadouro in the future.

The ranting was about things made by Krohn being labeled Taylor. Your counter-rant used the example of things made by Graham being called Graham. Huh? Does Not Equal.

jdaw1 wrote:The ranting was about things made by Krohn being labeled Taylor. Your counter-rant used the example of things made by Graham being called Graham. Huh? Does Not Equal.

Does not equal. Yes. Correct. Both examples involve a company being bought by another company, and in each the bought company's name is attached to the people who made the product being sold. The people using the name (in one instance) or putting it under their own name (in the other) are not those people. It seems that while this 'does not equal' it is proximate enough to raise similar questions. And the same answer: so what?

I think DJ's argument is fundamentally flawed.

The debate is about companies, not people.

• A company bought Graham, continued to call it Graham and continues to sell its wines under the name Graham's regardless of whether they were made before or after the ownership of the company changed hands.
• A company has bought Krohn, continues to call the company Krohn but will sell some of its old wines using the new parent company name and other wines under the name Krohn.

Different.

I think what's being lost here is that old stocks get sold all the time, so who knows what percentage were Krohn's wines from the get-go. Does it seem slightly strange for someone to put ~150 years of effort (assuming they owned the 1863 the whole time) and sell it under a different brand? Sure, but if this was old stock from a Quinta/shipper that had gone bankrupt or had an extra barrel of crazy old tawny sitting in a corner and sold it, such an issue would have never been raised. Taylor isn't hiding where the stuff comes from, they just don't see value in using that brand name to market it anymore. More power to them.


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I am not sure that I have wind enough to respond fully to the very reasonable points that Alex has made. It is true that Krohn wanted to sell and Taylor wanted to buy, I am unconvinced by the inference that this somehow took place in a vacuum, I think it very likely that a relatively small company faced with the uncertainty of the financial landscape in which they were operating would be glad to take the money from the much larger one. However this does not seem to be a panacea for the port industry. As has been discussed elsewhere the increasing hegemony exercised by two companies may be a wonderful thing for these companies but I am unconvinced that it is good for consumers or indeed the port industry as a whole.

My curmudgeonly instincts were most awoken by the phrase 'adding value', I assume this is a euphemism for putting up the prices. In what sense has real value been added when the only thing that has been changed is the price tag? The price of everything and the value of nothing... I am perplexed by the inference that this is a 'good thing' of itself.

I know that this is an argument which probably has more to do with ones personal view of economics than that of port but I think it is worth making.

I should also add that I am entirely sanguine about TFP buying whatever they wish and am less emotionally attached to my arguments than maybe is clear, the other backstory to this is that I have always felt I paid too much and got too little from Taylor wines. I hope I haven't ranted too much and that Alex will forgive any unfair assumptions I may have made. I may think of more later...

LGTrotter wrote:I hope I haven't ranted too much and that Alex will forgive any unfair assumptions I may have made. I may think of more later...

Owen,
I view our discourse as nothing more than the debate that occurs between two opinionated middle-aged men whenever they have been sharing an alcoholic beverage or two. The only slight challenge being that we are separated by a couple of counties. However, I have rather enjoyed a lovely bottle of Rioja this afternoon and evening while writing an article for Roy's next newsletter and watching this afternoon's IPL match.

Any unfair assumptions you have made are hereby forgiven.

Alex

Who made what can be bit academic, the more so when you go back in time.

Historically, most growers got no credit for their efforts whatsoever, and many established brands had little or no input when it came to blending the wines they sold.

Better to not worry too much about the origins of a port, but hold to account those who put their name on the label..

uncle tom wrote:Who made what can be bit academic, the more so when you go back in time.

Historically, most growers got no credit for their efforts whatsoever, and many established brands had little or no input when it came to blending the wines they sold.

Better to not worry too much about the origins of a port, but hold to account those who put their name on the label..

My sentiments, more succinctly!


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I think my broader point has got lost (I was looking at the majuscule, as it were, but I was countered in the minuscule). In the end I think both Tom and Owen have made excellent points. I too dislike the phrase 'added value' to mean 'higher price'. If TFP can pop a premium on a product because it has their name on it, well, good luck to them, but I agree that it doesn't exactly rank as a long-term strategy, especially in a market that's dwindling. I suppose this is a disagreement about economics (as Owen points out) - in a reduced market are you better to cut or hike your prices? I think this is what is referred to as 'negative feedback' and 'positive feedback' by market theorists, but I don't really have much in terms of economic literacy to back this up with...

In summary: if it's good for you, go ahead and fill your boots. But we may not be there tomorrow.

Dear All

Happy to see lots of posts about a Port that we will launch in VinExpo HK next week, in London on 3rd June and New York on 4th June.

No David Guimaraens did not show any last week - his focus was on Vintage Port, showing some single varietal experimental batches from the early 90s, the great Vintage Ports we made in the 90s and introducing the new 2012 single quintas.

I may see some of you in London or New York. For reference Krohn did sell a small quantity on 1863 in a pack with 1896 (see: http://www.erobertparker.com/members/msquires/ms51.asp ) at US $13,000. This was with a silk screen bottle, a simple box, decanter and two glasses.

We look forward to showing you the packaging and price when we launch.

Wiess and Krohn is now fully integrated into our business with all the staff given new jobs and contributing to the team. We are planning to re-introduce foot treading at Quinta do Retiro Novo this harvest. The visitors' centre in Gaia is open as usual and welcome plenty of guests. The Krohn branded ports remain availble to purchase but not where those same wines have been used to create a Taylor product - Single Harvest 1964 and 1863.

Kind regards, Adrian Bridge

Thank you for posting Adrian. It's always fascinating to have information direct from those who are actually bringing the ports to the market - even if it means that our wilder speculations and prognostications have to be reined back in!

Was I the only one who had to google

djewesbury wrote:majuscule.

?

LGTrotter wrote:Was I the only one who had to google

djewesbury wrote:majuscule.

?

And I had you down as one of the eruditer ones.

Echoing the thanks to Adrian. We like to hear truth from its source.

And it is also good the none of the Krohn staff were made redundant, especially given the state of the Portuguese job market.

And we like foot treading.

jdaw1 wrote:Echoing the thanks to Adrian. We like to hear truth from its source.

And it is also good the none of the Krohn staff were made redundant, especially given the state of the Portuguese job market.

And we like foot treading.

+1!


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AdrianBridge wrote:Happy to see lots of posts about a Port that we will launch in VinExpo HK next week, in London on 3rd June and New York on 4th June. We look forward to showing you the packaging and price when we launch.

L'Assemblage has a sneak preview, I assume the small picture of the 1863 complete with your signature is what this launch is about. Hope you don't do a smiley face on the dot over the 'i' in your surname, I'm not sure I would buy one under such circumstances.

LGTrotter wrote:

AdrianBridge wrote:Happy to see lots of posts about a Port that we will launch in VinExpo HK next week, in London on 3rd June and New York on 4th June. We look forward to showing you the packaging and price when we launch.

L'Assemblage has a sneak preview, I assume the small picture of the 1863 complete with your signature is what this launch is about. Hope you don't do a smiley face on the dot over the 'i' in your surname, I'm not sure I would buy one under such circumstances.

I want to buy one now specifically to get Adrian to sign my bottle that way.

Darn, now I'll have to get mine signed with a heart over the i.

AdrianBridge wrote:Happy to see lots of posts about a Port that we will launch in VinExpo HK next week, in London on 3rd June and New York on 4th June.

London is the “International” launch, so is the earlier Hong Kong launch merely domestic?

Is there anybody out there who attended both the Taylor's 1863 launch and the Graham's 'Ne Michael Buble' shindig who can comment and contrast? I wondered if there was a similarity in the presentation of the events.

I notice there is a similarity of packaging between them, all morocco leather and teak. It's a bit like the Vesuvio packaging debate but magnified. As though one would carry a bottle of port around like a piece of luggage. Personally I would rather they sold it in jam jars if it kept the price down.