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Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 18:45 Thu 15 Jan 2015
by gerwin.degraaf
Hi all,
I would like to ask your expert opinion on the following. I have the chance to buy a couple of bottles of Finest 1947 Vintage Port. The label states:
Shipped by Guimaraens & Co Porto
(bottled by) N.v. Wijnhandel Hendrik Kruimel Amsterdam.
I only have seen one picture (I'll attach it).
I will get the chance to check and inspect the bottles before deciding to whether or not purchase them.
I now have the following questions:
1) In your opions: is this Fonseca (or SQ Guimaraens) Vintage Port of the year 1947?
If so:
2) Is it worth buying (in other words, will it still be drinkable, assuming it has been kept in the right way, which should be the case):
3) Does anybody have any experience with this particular Fonseca vintage (as I can't find any tasting notes on it on this or the other forum)?
Thanks for your assistance and advice!
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 18:47 Thu 15 Jan 2015
by jdaw1
Careful: if people reply saying yum yum buy buy it, other readers might jump in front of you.
Please send replies by PM.
Gerwin: after your decision, please post here the advice received.
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 01:49 Sat 17 Jan 2015
by Andy Velebil
See my reply on
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 06:34 Sat 17 Jan 2015
by PhilW
Andy Velebil wrote:See my reply on
An informative reply that I think merits repeat here, if you are happy to do so.
Writers of "a certain book" might consider including the snippet of information also?
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 09:08 Sat 17 Jan 2015
by DRT
PhilW wrote:Andy Velebil wrote:See my reply on
An informative reply that I think merits repeat here, if you are happy to do so.
Writers of "a certain book" might consider including the snippet of information also?
I don't think the information Andy has used is accurate. My counter argument has been posted
here.
Regardless of all of that these bottles look entirely legitimate and are probably fine drinking.
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 11:21 Sat 17 Jan 2015
by djewesbury
I have read somewhere (a book, not a forum about port) an account that agrees with Derek's version.
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 13:38 Sat 17 Jan 2015
by Andy Velebil
(Cross posted from FTLOP)
Derek,
My information came directly from David Guimaraens and Chris Forbes, who was working on the history of the company for them. I assume that is who wrote the book you reference?? Not sure why the change of information to what he gave me, but Adrian and David G. did tell me the history of the company is very complicated. Something I found out when researching that article. I have no idea why the slight change from what I was given. Possible they located slightly different info after I was given it?? Here's a more complete set of info from the article I wrote, based on the info given to me.
Fonseca was founded in 1815. In 1822 Manuel Pedro Guimaraens gained control of the Fonseca Monteiro Co., left Portugal for London, and began selling Ports under many names; including Manuel Pedro Guimaraens, Fonseca Monteiro & Guimaraens, Fonseca Monteiro & Co, Fonseca & Guimaraens and Fonseca & Monteiro. By 1840 the company was the second largest shipper of wine and this was also the year that saw the very first Vintage Port released under just the “Fonseca” label. From this point forward the company only used the “Fonseca” label for it’s finest Vintage Ports, retaining the other labels for lesser quality ones.
While Quinta d. Terra Feita was under contract to Fonseca to supply Ports, the 1909 and 1911 vintages were released under the Quinta d. Terra Feita label and not a Fonseca label. For all intents and purposes, 1931 is considered the first vintage under the Fonseca-Guimaraens label. 1931 also saw a Fonseca Special Reserve released as well. In 1933 and 1934 the company released Vintage Ports under both Fonseca and Fonseca-Guimaraens labels. However, after 1934 the company changed their policy and the two labels were never again released in the same year.
The London company of M P Guimaraens & Son closed in 1928 and the offices were moved to Oporto and operated under Guimaraens & Co name. Yet Guimaraens & Co. and Fonseca remained separately run companies until 1967 when Alistar Robertson merged the two companies together. A move that saved both companies from financial ruin and eventually led again to their rise in prominence. I must clarify this last point, while the administrative parts merged, the stocks of wine remained separate to retain each houses distinctive heritage, traditions, and wine style.
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 13:51 Sat 17 Jan 2015
by DRT
Yes, I think Chris Forbes was the researcher for the book. We will have to set up an opportunity to "interview" David over a bottle of 1931 some time soon to get to the bottom of the mystery
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 14:31 Sat 17 Jan 2015
by Andy Velebil
DRT wrote:Yes, I think Chris Forbes was the researcher for the book. We will have to set up an opportunity to "interview" David over a bottle of 1931 some time soon to get to the bottom of the mystery
Yes, please
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 22:42 Sat 17 Jan 2015
by gerwin.degraaf
Thanks for everyone's reactions and advice (from the other forum as well, will post over there too)!
I've made an appointment to check the bottles sometime next week. I received confirmation that the bottles are mine if I want them (sellers has accepted my offer so we are on agreement pricewise).
I've decided that I will take the bottles (all 3 of them), if they are in reasonable condition (from the picture this seems to be the case).
A nice touch will be, that one of the bottles will be a birthday present for my dad in a couple of months, as 1947 was my mother's birthyear. My dad's turning 70, so I'll throw in a Sandeman 1945 VP as well for him (so both my sons can give him a bottle). I am sure he will be very surprised (especially with the 1947), and I am confident I will among the Lucky ones who will get to taste both bottles.
Thanks again, and have a good weekend all,
Gerwin
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 20:00 Mon 26 Jan 2015
by gerwin.degraaf
Earlier this evening went to check the bottles.
I decided to take them, they look in pretty good shape (all three have levels in the upper shoulder of the bottles, no signs of leakage).
The capsules mention (as far as I can read): shipped solely by Guimaraens & Co Porto. I've not seen this statment (nor label, nor capsule) earlier. Have any of you?
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 20:41 Mon 26 Jan 2015
by RAYC
Fonseca have some quite good information about the history of the firm on their website:
link
While the "producer" or "house" that we now refer to as Fonseca Guimaraens seems to have existed in a number of legal forms (both corporate and partnership) in UK and Oporto over the years, there's nothing to suggest that "Fonseca" and "Guimaraens" parts ever existed independently (at least since 1822).
The reference to a merger in 1967 strikes me as being to the merger with Taylor Fladgate - the quote that Andy gives (about retention of "each house's distinctive heritage, traditions, and wine style") is a direct quote about that merger from the Fonseca website.
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 20:42 Mon 26 Jan 2015
by RAYC
gerwin.degraaf wrote:Earlier this evening went to check the bottles.
I decided to take them, they look in pretty good shape (all three have levels in the upper shoulder of the bottles, no signs of leakage).
The capsules mention (as far as I can read): shipped solely by Guimaraens & Co Porto. I've not seen this statment (nor label, nor capsule) earlier. Have any of you?
What does the white section of the label say?
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 20:46 Mon 26 Jan 2015
by LGTrotter
Thanks for letting us all know the outcome. If it wasn't for Julian's interdiction of silence I would have said they look lovely and buy them if the price is right. It looks like this is what you thought too.
Nice to hear a happy ending. I hope they drink as good as they look.
Re: Is this Fonseca (Guimaraens) 1947?
Posted: 21:06 Mon 26 Jan 2015
by gerwin.degraaf
RAYC wrote:gerwin.degraaf wrote:Earlier this evening went to check the bottles.
I decided to take them, they look in pretty good shape (all three have levels in the upper shoulder of the bottles, no signs of leakage).
The capsules mention (as far as I can read): shipped solely by Guimaraens & Co Porto. I've not seen this statment (nor label, nor capsule) earlier. Have any of you?
What does the white section of the label say?
That says:
Imported by
N.V. Wijnhandel van Hendriks Kruimel
Amsterdam
this was an Amsterdam based winemerchant