Port House abbreviations

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 22:45 Wed 10 Jun 2020

Three-nil is enough: Km added.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by flash_uk » 22:46 Wed 10 Jun 2020

PhilW wrote:
22:06 Wed 10 Jun 2020
Km preferred here also.
+1

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 22:50 Wed 10 Jun 2020

Km seems most logical to me as well.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 23:07 Fri 12 Jun 2020

In the vintage declaration listings 2005-2018 there are now some producers who do not appear in the Port House abbreviations list.

Does this need remedying?
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 23:55 Fri 12 Jun 2020

AHB wrote:
23:07 Fri 12 Jun 2020
In the vintage declaration listings 2005-2018 there are now some producers who do not appear in the Port House abbreviations list.

Does this need remedying?
Please say who is missing, and from there the usual process can happen.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 21:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020

JacobH wrote:
11:55 Thu 20 Aug 2020
A bit of chatter on Twitter revealed that Quinta da Pedra Alta are releasing at 2018 next year. Assuming the price isn’t insane, I might go for this since I haven’t bought and 2018 VP yet and none of the other options have really tempted me.
Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

Axel P wrote:
07:23 Thu 06 Aug 2020
DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles
The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 22:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
21:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020
JacobH wrote:
11:55 Thu 20 Aug 2020
A bit of chatter on Twitter revealed that Quinta da Pedra Alta are releasing at 2018 next year. Assuming the price isn’t insane, I might go for this since I haven’t bought and 2018 VP yet and none of the other options have really tempted me.
Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?
No objection to Quinta da Pedra Alta taking PA.
jdaw1 wrote:
21:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020
Axel P wrote:
07:23 Thu 06 Aug 2020
DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles
The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.
Ugh.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 10:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020

Glenn E. wrote:
22:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020
jdaw1 wrote:
21:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020
Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?
No objection to Quinta da Pedra Alta taking PA.
Agree.
Glenn E. wrote:
22:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020
jdaw1 wrote:
21:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020
Axel P wrote:
07:23 Thu 06 Aug 2020
DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles
The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.
I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.
Disagree - we usually use the brand not the company (though often they are similar/the same), c.f. Rebello Valente not Robertsons, or Smith Woodhouse not Symingtons etc. So I would not use AR.

As far as DR vs DSR goes, I've looked back and I can't see any Ribeira which is not Senhora (da) Ribeira, so having agreed/defined that as DSR then any prior use as DR is simply erroneous and can be ignored, we define DR to be used for DR ports.

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense, and I would use SL for the San Leonardo brand ports (though I think that brand is only used for tawny/white, not for any VPs?).

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 18:17 Tue 25 Aug 2020

Glenn E. wrote:
22:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020
We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?
PhilW wrote:
10:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020
Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense
I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

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Re: RE: Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 19:27 Tue 25 Aug 2020


jdaw1 wrote:
PhilW wrote:
10:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020
Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense
I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?
No objection here.


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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 01:05 Wed 26 Aug 2020

PhilW wrote:
10:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020
Glenn E. wrote:
22:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020
jdaw1 wrote:
21:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020
Axel P wrote:
07:23 Thu 06 Aug 2020
DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles
The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.
I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.
Disagree - we usually use the brand not the company (though often they are similar/the same), c.f. Rebello Valente not Robertsons, or Smith Woodhouse not Symingtons etc. So I would not use AR.

As far as DR vs DSR goes, I've looked back and I can't see any Ribeira which is not Senhora (da) Ribeira, so having agreed/defined that as DSR then any prior use as DR is simply erroneous and can be ignored, we define DR to be used for DR ports.

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense, and I would use SL for the San Leonardo brand ports (though I think that brand is only used for tawny/white, not for any VPs?).
I missed that we've previously used brand names, and greatly prefer DR in the first place, so switch my support to DR.

For the record, Smith Woodhouse is not a brand in the same way that DR, S. Leonardo, or Rio Bom are. Smith Woodhouse is a producer with its own quinta. I would even argue that Gould Campbell - which lacks its own quinta - is still not a brand in the same way that DR is. It, too, is a (former) producer with an independent history. DR, S. Leonardo, and Rio Bom are all proper brands - the have no history that I know of that is not associated with their respective companies.

A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.
jdaw1 wrote:
18:17 Tue 25 Aug 2020
Glenn E. wrote:
22:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020
We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?
PhilW wrote:
10:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020
Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense
I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?
Only that in Portuguese, the pronunciation of Mourão leaves the 'r' nearly silent. A single 'r' in Portuguese is usually (but not always) much closer to an English 'h' than an English 'r'. So when I look at Mr, it does not say Mourão to me.

But my objection is not fierce. I dislike both Mo and Mr, but cannot think of a better suggestion.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 21:30 Wed 26 Aug 2020

Mo is closer to the way in which the first syllable of the name of the quinta
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 21:48 Wed 26 Aug 2020

Glenn E. wrote:
01:05 Wed 26 Aug 2020
I dislike both Mo and Mr
Agreed: I dislike both Mo and Mr.


Glenn E. wrote:
01:05 Wed 26 Aug 2020
A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.
Since “the product is identical”, why not use the San Leonardo name and call them all SL?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 23:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
21:48 Wed 26 Aug 2020
Glenn E. wrote:
01:05 Wed 26 Aug 2020
A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.
Since “the product is identical”, why not use the San Leonardo name and call them all SL?
It isn't clear to me what the intent is with the new label. I hadn't heard of Rio Bom being used for anything other than their table wine until fairly recently, but now they also sell TWAIOA under that label. Their own website does not have an VP listed under Rio Bom, though, so it seems that it would be safe to use SL as the abbreviation.

I'd also forgotten that Quinta do Mourão is not the company - that would be Mário Braga, Herdeiros. They own 4 other quintas as well. So SL is seeming more an more appropriate.

Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 23:59 Wed 26 Aug 2020

We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?


Glenn E. wrote:
23:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020
Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.
One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 09:58 Sat 12 Sep 2020

I’ve just come across a tasting note in my efforts to catch up with transferring them all from paper to electronic form for a Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval 1977 brought by Zak to a tasting last year.

We have ROC as an abbreviation for Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas. What should we use as an abbreviation for Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval? ROCv? Should we change Carvalhas to ROCs?
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by akzy » 18:20 Sat 12 Sep 2020

I can't think of a better solution. It's annoying that it would make them both four characters but given the 'RO' for royal oporto, doesn't seem like anything else that makes sense.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 18:33 Sat 12 Sep 2020

It's also annoying that the two Quintas use essentially the same consonants. Either could be Cr or Cv.

Precedent says that Carvalhas should remain C, and that Corval should then be something not easily confused with Carvalhas. Perhaps Cl?

But if we're going to change Carvalhas, since I am more familiar with it I would prefer to use Cv for Carvalhas and Cr for Corval.

Or, despite Julian's preference for consonants, they could be Ca and Co.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 12:40 Sun 13 Sep 2020

I also have a preference for not changing established things, unless necessary. So ROC remains Carvalhas.

As ‘r’, ‘v’ and ‘l’ are in both, unhelpfully, the best might be ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval.

Fierce objection, anybody?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 13:36 Sun 13 Sep 2020

Works for me
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by winesecretary » 21:41 Sun 13 Sep 2020

I am, with the utmost respect, with Glenn on this. Perhaps say ROCa and ROCo going forwards? A brief amendment could be made to the abbreviations list for the current ROC to explain the necessity for the updated terminology.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Andy Velebil » 23:11 Sun 13 Sep 2020

The odds of many TN's of this rare SQVP showing up are slim. Not worth changing what is already in place for a long established SQVP (Carvalhas). The ROCo is probably the best and easiest for Corval.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 21:51 Mon 14 Sep 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
12:40 Sun 13 Sep 2020
I also have a preference for not changing established things, unless necessary. So ROC remains Carvalhas.

As ‘r’, ‘v’ and ‘l’ are in both, unhelpfully, the best might be ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval.

Fierce objection, anybody?
Works for me.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 08:56 Tue 15 Sep 2020

Either of ROCo or ROCv would work for me. I prefer the latter as lead letter of next syllable, but accept the former allows better differentiation.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 18:46 Tue 15 Sep 2020

There isn’t passionate unanimity, but the following seems to be broadly acceptable, with some liking and nobody strongly disliking. So decision taken.
ROC = Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas
ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval

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