Would this be useful to have on TPF?...

[DRT]

Following on from the discussions around points and which shippers did not declare certain vintages I thought it might be useful to compile a list of declarations and scores for reference purposes. I have used 1985 as an example below and presented it sorted in two different ways, ordered alphabetically or by score.

Please let me know if you would find this a useful resource to have on this site and also any comments or suggestions on how it could be improved. If anyone knows how to make phpBB format itself as a table that would be of great assistance.

The points are from Suckling and the stars from Broadbent - "nr" denotes "Not Rated". More sources could be added if desired. Personally, I don't like the option of ordering by score as you can only choose one and there is huge inconsistency in the ratings given.

If enough people think this would be useful I would happily spend the time compiling it, intially for generally declared years only but perhaps for all years in the longer term. Assistance would obviously be welcome.

Thanks

Derek

[DRT]

• 1985
  • A Pinta dos Santos - 69 - nr
  • Barros, Almeida - 80 - nr
  • Borges - 70 - nr
  • Burmester - 93 - **
  • C da Silva - 78 - ***
  • Calem - 88 - ****
  • Churchill - 81 - ****
  • Cockburn - 90 - ***
  • Croft - 81 - ***
  • Dalva - nr - **
  • Delaforce - 81 - ****
  • Dow - 89 - ****
  • Feist - 72 - nr
  • Ferreira - 87 - ****
  • Feurheed - 72 - nr
  • Fonseca - 95 - ****(*)
  • Gilbert - nr - *
  • Gonzalez Byass - nr - *
  • Gould Campbell - 85 - ****
  • Graham - 96 - *****
  • Hooper - 80 - **
  • Hutcheson - nr - **
  • Kopke - 90 - **
  • Krohn - 81 - nr
  • Martinez - 89 - ***
  • Messias - 67 - **
  • Morgan - 85 - nr
  • Niepoort - 92 - ****
  • Offley Boa Vista - 89 - ****
  • Osborne - 76 - nr
  • Pocas Junior - 85 - *
  • Quinta do Foz - nr - ***(*)
  • Quarles Harris - 85 - **
  • Quinta da Romaniera - 78 - nr
  • Quinta do Crasto - 71 - nr
  • Quinta do Infantado - 76 - nr
  • Quinta do Noval - 86 - ****
  • Quinta do Noval Nacional - 95 - ***(**)
  • Quinta do Panascal - 78 - nr
  • Quinta do Roriz - 87 - nr
  • Ramos Pinto - 85 - ***
  • Robertson's Rebello Valente - 81 - ***
  • Royal Oporto - 71 - **
  • Rozes - 81 - nr
  • Sandeman - 83 - ****
  • Smith Woodhouse - 89 - **(*)
  • Taylor - 90 - ***(**)
  • Van Zeller - 80 - nr
  • Vieira de Souza - 70 - nr
  • Warre - 91 - ****(*)

[DRT]

• 1985
  • Dalva - nr - **
  • Gilbert - nr - *
  • Gonzalez Byass - nr - *
  • Hutcheson - nr - **
  • Quinta do Foz - nr - ***(*)
  • Graham - 96 - *****
  • Fonseca - 95 - ****(*)
  • Quinta do Noval Nacional - 95 - ***(**)
  • Burmester - 93 - **
  • Niepoort - 92 - ****
  • Warre - 91 - ****(*)
  • Cockburn - 90 - ***
  • Kopke - 90 - **
  • Taylor - 90 - ***(**)
  • Dow - 89 - ****
  • Martinez - 89 - ***
  • Offley Boa Vista - 89 - ****
  • Smith Woodhouse - 89 - **(*)
  • Calem - 88 - ****
  • Ferreira - 87 - ****
  • Quinta do Roriz - 87 - nr
  • Quinta do Noval - 86 - ****
  • Gould Campbell - 85 - ****
  • Morgan - 85 - nr
  • Pocas Junior - 85 - *
  • Quarles Harris - 85 - **
  • Ramos Pinto - 85 - ***
  • Sandeman - 83 - ****
  • Churchill - 81 - ****
  • Croft - 81 - ***
  • Delaforce - 81 - ****
  • Krohn - 81 - nr
  • Robertson's Rebello Valente - 81 - ***
  • Rozes - 81 - nr
  • Barros, Almeida - 80 - nr
  • Hooper - 80 - **
  • Van Zeller - 80 - nr
  • C da Silva - 78 - ***
  • Quinta da Romaniera - 78 - nr
  • Quinta do Panascal - 78 - nr
  • Osborne - 76 - nr
  • Quinta do Infantado - 76 - nr
  • Feist - 72 - nr
  • Feurheed - 72 - nr
  • Quinta do Crasto - 71 - nr
  • Royal Oporto - 71 - **
  • Borges - 70 - nr
  • Vieira de Souza - 70 - nr
  • A Pinta dos Santos - 69 - nr
  • Messias - 67 - **

[g-man]

A database would perhaps be the best solution for what you're suggesting Derek.

That way we can run queries and all the neat stuff you did with the aggregation/averaging of point scores which I found very interesting.

Would be happy to write something up if you want to give me a spec?

[DRT]

A database would perhaps be the best solution for what you're suggesting Derek.

That way we can run queries and all the neat stuff you did with the aggregation/averaging of point scores which I found very interesting.

Would be happy to write something up if you want to give me a spec?

g-man,

I agree that this would be ideal but we are limited here in what can be achieved on a freeware BB. Unless you know otherwise

If we were to hold this in database format the spec would be very simple. A table containing columns for vintage, shipper and a few scores from different sources. It might also be fun to find a way to link the items to TN's on this Forum?

I have started creating this in Excel to make it easier to produce the BB code for posting. I am happy to continue to do that until a database could be made available, at which time all the data could be imported from the spreadsheet with little effort.

Please vote "Yes", as you seem to find the concept useful.

Thanks

Derek

[g-man]

I had a discussion with Julian about this a while back and he suggested I talk with Eric at Cellar Tracker.

But thinking for this site, because we're only focusing on port, we might be able to do something for ourselves so we have the ability for customization.

Whoever owns TPF, does your host offer a free mysql database we might be able to set up?

[jdaw1]

Yes, but alphabetical rather than by score. Scores are multi-multi-dimensional (many sources, multi-dimensional within a source), so sorting by scores is less clear-cut.

Be careful with alphabetical sort: for the TN index each house has a name to show, and a separate name for alphabetical sorting (e.g., omitting “Quinta do†). I am willing to share my data.

[Axel P]

Outstanding idea. But I think it might be best to have someone run it on pdf at home and you distribute it on demand or have it downloadable.

I would distribute certain years to others who would be happy to assist, giving them a format to fill out and then summarize it.

As Im a total novice in programming it I think a pdf would do the easiest job.

Happy to count me in for assistance.

Axel

[DRT]

Yes, but alphabetical rather than by score. Scores are multi-multi-dimensional (many sources, multi-dimensional within a source), so sorting by scores is less clear-cut.

Agreed, I think we will leave the sorting by score until a time when we have a searchable database that could be sorted across one or more columns of the users choice.

Be careful with alphabetical sort: for the TN index each house has a name to show, and a separate name for alphabetical sorting (e.g., omitting “Quinta do†). I am willing to share my data.

If you send me your data I will be happy to attempt to stick to the standard naming convention. This will need to be a two-way exchange as I am likely to encounter shippers for whom we do not yet have a TN here.

Derek

[DRT]

Even at this early stage I think I can accept a 5-0 score plus three offers of assistance as a good indication that that this is worthwhile.

I will commence building the data from the sources I have into a straightforward spreadsheet that, at some point in the future, could be used as the basis of a searchable database.

I do like Axel's suggestion of using PDF to achieve a good layout and distribution method. I have the technology to produce PDF's so will try this. However, we would need somewhere to host the data files or, find a way of displaying a PDF as a picture hosted on something like flickr.com. Suggestions please?

If anyone has:

• Vintage Port by James Suckling;
• Vintage Wine by Michael Broadbent;
• the ability to adhere to a standard format;
• the ability to use Microsoft Excel; and
• a willingness to help

...then please let me know and I will allocate separate vinatges for each person to produce the data.

I will make a start today and, initially, will simply create a thread containing an individual post for each vintage with a series of links in the first post in the thread. I will keep the raw data in excel for future use if and when we come up with a more functionaly rich alternative.

Derek

[DRT]

I intend placing the thread in the TN area as a Sticky as that seems to be a logical place for it to be. Agreed?

Derek

[jdaw1]

I am a PDF narg. You work on data; presentation I can handle.

The TN excel file en route to you. Improvements and additions welcome.

Broadbent I know I have: happy to assist there.

[DRT]

I am a PDF narg. You work on data; presentation I can handle.

The TN excel file en route to you. Improvements and additions welcome.

Broadbent I know I have: happy to assist there.

My excel file will hit your inbox shortly. It will be in the format I am using to generate BBCode for pasting into threads so will require re-formating to allow creation of PDF's. Are you happy to host them on http://www.jdawiseman.com or do we need an alternative resource?

Derek

[Axel P]

Again: willing to help. Just send me the excel file. I do have a Broadbent and just ordered the book from Suckling.

The jounger the Vintages the more TNs I have.

Axel

[DRT]

I would like to join in for 94, but I do not have access to my books since I am in Switzerland until Thursday.

Axel

Axel,

I hope you don't mind but I have removed the above quoted post from the Declarations thread as I didn't intend it to be used for discussions. If we can keep all the comments and suggestions here that would be good as it will keep the Declarations thread clean.

As you are away from home right now I'll continue to bash away at the older vintages (Suckling stops at 87) and we be happy for other sources to be brought into play for the more recent vintage years.

Thanks

Derek

[DRT]

Hmmm?, so someone has voted "no" but not chipped in with a reason. Do I smell a third Admin lurking around somewhere?

[Andy Velebil]

Hmmm?, so someone has voted "no" but not chipped in with a reason. Do I smell a third Admin lurking around somewhere?

Well, admin...just not here

It was I, allow me to explain. While I like the idea, its fraught with problems.

One is that Sucklings scores from his book are so old and out of date, they are basically worthless now. They are so far from acurate that I would never refer to them nowdays. I've had this discussion with many Port lovers and ALL have agreed to this....so why use them then? He has recently redone the 1977 and 1997 Ports and they are much more acurate. I would suggest using those, but you will need a subscribtion to Wine Spectator to get them.

The second is what was brought about in another thread. Scores (what ever method use prefer) are a VERY small part of the overall rating of a wine. By far the most important part is what is written down in the TN itself. A score alone is very subjective. The bottle may have been off, the taster having a bad day, food paired with it, etc. (I think you get what I am trying to say). I'll use the 1977 Fonseca as an example. While it got great scores early on, it has really shown a TON of bottle variation now that its getting older. A very important thing to know before spending that kinda money on a VP. A score alone won't tell you that, but a TN just might.

Third..why not incorporate scores from members here. I trust some of their palates as much, or more, than Sucklings or Broadbents. Why be so narrow.

Fourth..thats a lot of ongoing work everytime they re-try and re-score a given Port.

Fifth...is there any copyright (or the like) issues. As you are basically just reprinting what is copyrighted material. Oh sure, no one cares about a few scores talked about here and there. But you are reprinting ALL of their scores from their published and copyrighted books into one database for all to see and use. That may just get their gander up....and they got lots of lawyers. Just something to thing about as I dont want anyone to get in trouble.

My two cents.

[10Anos]

Even though I regard a score as secondary to comments and descriptions, I voted yes. I can imagine circumstances where the score might make some decisions a little easier.

However, I was also thinking about the copyright issue. I agree with ADV, referring once in a while to a score is fine, but reproducing all the scores in this forum will likely been seen as an infringement on the copyrights.

[DRT]

I did think about the Copyright issue and then thought "is it any different to what has existed on http://www.portlover.com for the last few years?" - I convinced myself that it isn't. The lawyers may disagree

The principal reason for the list is to eventually have a publically accessable reference of all known vinatge ports. The scores are incidental but I do think that our friend Jdaw will already be working out a way to combine these lists and the TPF TN Index so that the scores can be obtained from people here as well as (or as an alternative) to those of Broadbent and Suckling.

One thing for sure is that if either of them object I will be happy to remove them. If anyone reading this knows them I would be delighted if they would ask them the question just so they don't find out later and object.

I agree it's lots of work to compile the lists, but that just means drinking lots of drinking port in front of the PC for the next few weeks

Derek

[jdaw1]

• The list of declarations would be very worthwhile, and timeless.
• The ratings might be ©, become dated, are more effort to find, and are multi-multi-dimensional.

[SushiNorth]

I've a spreadsheet of most common ports that I see in the NY area, together with WS scores I picked up from PL and elsewhere. However, I'd suggest there are a few problems with doing this. First of all, we'd be taking away one of the few things that distinguishes PortLover. Second, we're going to wind up with a huge number of scores for each year -- aside from WS/WA/WE/etc, we also have the multiple times that a magazine comes back to try a port, and that it's not always by the same reviewer.

I don't mean to say that it won't be useful, but I think what makes TPF unique is that we push the opinions only of this community (both the celebs, and newbs like myself, together). To do a ratings list justice we'd need to duplicate PL.

[jdaw1]

It seems that TPF is going to have ≥2 databases of house names. To allow linkage of these, the names should match. Please see thread entitled Standardised House Names. (If you don’t speak, I get to choose.)

[DRT]

I now have a database containing 880 Vintage Ports declared by 102 shippers between 1900 and 2005. The database does not contain any scores.

Vintages, other than those that were generally declared, prior to the 1960's are sparse, as are the years after 2000. If anyone has any electronic data containing lists of VP's declared in these years can you please send them to me by email so that I can add them to the list.

Thanks

Derek

[jdaw1]

FYI www.krohn.pt/engine.php?cat=62 seems to deny the existence of the 1985, but notes the ’91, ’97, 2000, ’03, ’04, ’05.

[DRT]

FYI www.krohn.pt/engine.php?cat=62 seems to deny the existence of the 1985, but notes the ’91, ’97, 2000, ’03, ’04, ’05.

Suckling's book has a detailed TN which includes a comparison with other 85's, a score of 81pts, a release price of $21 and current (1990) retail price of $32. I would trust the book over a shippers website.

Derek

[jdaw1]

I trust the Union of the two sets. Those mentioned by either can be assumed to exist.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I'm not voting on the basis that while I would like to see as complete a list as possible of declarations in all years and a score for a particular shipper's wine:

(a) I believe that Uncle Tom has already done a massive amount of research in compiling such a list; and

(b) I would prefer a score for the shipper as a range of scores based on the scores that TPF users have awarded for sound bottles.

I would be very concerned about using the scores of others as this is their intellectual property and although we are not using it to our financial advantage, free publication of their scores may persuade others not to buy their books and so work to the disadvantage of Messers Broadbent, Suckling and others.

So, in summary:
Yes to the list of known shippers and known vintages
No to the scores of others but Yes to scores from TPF

Alex

[DRT]

I'm not voting on the basis that while I would like to see as complete a list as possible of declarations in all years and a score for a particular shipper's wine:

(a) I believe that Uncle Tom has already done a massive amount of research in compiling such a list; and

(b) I would prefer a score for the shipper as a range of scores based on the scores that TPF users have awarded for sound bottles.

I would be very concerned about using the scores of others as this is their intellectual property and although we are not using it to our financial advantage, free publication of their scores may persuade others not to buy their books and so work to the disadvantage of Messers Broadbent, Suckling and others.

So, in summary:
Yes to the list of known shippers and known vintages
No to the scores of others but Yes to scores from TPF

Alex

Alex,

Those who have dedicated the Easter Weekend of 2008 to this task have proceeded on the basis that:

1. We will create a list of declared vintages
2. We will not use the scores of non-TPFolites
3. Brother Jdaw will find a way to link our TN's to the index of declared vinatges

So, without knowing it, you are entirely in agreement with the Committee do Socialadade dos Declarado dos Colheita's de Vinho do Porto

Derek

[DRT]

Acknowledgement:

Thanks are due to Roy Hersh who has allowed me to use his personal TN database as a source of data for our list of declarations.

Thanks, Roy

Derek

[KillerB]

Acknowledgement:

Thanks are due to Roy Hersh who has allowed me to use his personal TN database as a source of data for our list of declarations.

Thanks, Roy

Derek

Thank you Roy, that is extremely generous of you.

[Conky]

Are we progressing at all? Or is the Devil in the Detail...Again.

[DRT]

Are we progressing at all? Or is the Devil in the Detail...Again.

Progress is being made but the detail is indeed in the hands of the Devil.

Good things come to those who wait

[KillerB]

Are we progressing at all? Or is the Devil in the Detail...Again.

Progress is being made but the detail is indeed in the hands of the Devil.

Good things come to those who wait

Horrible term that I hated using but sometimes it was necessary. I remember using it once and hating myself but it somehow managed customer expectations correctly.

I recall another time when somebody form pre-sales claimed that they could set something up for a customer in an afternoon when proper definition would take nearer to a month. I set a prototype up in one hour but reality was a month. Customer still using ten years later.

[DRT]

I only used the term because I know about Conky's passion for Guinness

Our developer is currently either finalising a prototype Declarations Chart or creating a wha-da-ya-call-it-whizz-bang-thingy that can count sediment particles in a 57.56 yr old VP bottle based on average ambient temperature and background alpha radiation levels. Either way, he's not wasting his time on anything useless to the end user.

Derek

[KillerB]

I only used the term because I know about Conky's passion for Guinness

Our developer is currently either finalising a prototype Declarations Chart or creating a wha-da-ya-call-it-whizz-bang-thingy that can count sediment particles in a 57.56 yr old VP bottle based on average ambient temperature and background alpha radiation levels. Either way, he's not wasting his time on anything useless to the end user.

Derek

I was talking about "The Devil is in the Detail" - yeuchh

[DRT]

I only used the term because I know about Conky's passion for Guinness

Our developer is currently either finalising a prototype Declarations Chart or creating a wha-da-ya-call-it-whizz-bang-thingy that can count sediment particles in a 57.56 yr old VP bottle based on average ambient temperature and background alpha radiation levels. Either way, he's not wasting his time on anything useless to the end user.

Derek

I was talking about "The Devil is in the Detail" - yeuchh

If you don't like using it then try the Guinness alternative instead.

Derek