Advice please

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Ladies and gentlemen, good morning,

Long story short, my girlfriend, our 6 months old baby and i are going to visit Portugal for the first two weeks of September. We will be leaving Quebec, Canada, by airplane (obviously). We also don't plan on renting a car. Therefore, i would like some advice on various subjects. So far, our travel will start at Porto for a few days, then Lagos, then Lisbon.

Something you should know too, is that where i live, importing alcohol is almost impossible. Consequently, it means that i currently don't have access to many rare port wines, and this is something i would really like to try!

Therefore, here are some questions :

1) I plan on visiting one or two port producers only, depending on what the baby can tolerate! Which ones do you suggest?
2) Where can i buy rare vintage port bottles? I expect to spend up to 500E for 4 to 6 bottles.
3) Is there any vintage port bottles you really suggest?
4) As far as traveling, is there any advice on how to bring back port bottles by airplane?
5) Is there anything i should be aware, considering the wild fires for the previous weeks?
6) Do you have any other tips?
7) Is there any port bar, to taste vintage port by the glass, in any of these 3 cities?

Thank you very much, and i apologize for my French accent!

[Alex Bridgeman]

Some quick thoughts for you.

When in Porto, if you want to focus on top end fortified wines, I recommend you visit one (or more) of the following:
- Niepoort Lodge
- Grahams
- Ramos Pinto
- Noval tasting room
- Kopke tasting room
All will need to be pre-booked, some are quite expensive but all (in my opinion) offer good value for money.

The wine list at Dick's Bar (at the Yeatman) and Vinum (at the Graham's Lodge) are impressively deep (but make sure you ask for the Wine Book at Dick's Bar). More casual but equally impressive depth from a range of smaller producers is LaDo Wines on the Porto side just one block up from the river - again, best to book in advance.

In Lisbon I recommend a visit to all three (four?) branches of Garrafeira Nacional. They are within walking distance of each other, all have enomatic machines which allow you to buy wine by the sample or glass and each offer different things. When I was there last year, all had at least one fortified wine and one branch (I forget which) had about 6 or 7 Ports to sample.

You can buy bottles of good Port from any of the places suggested for a visit. Make sure you ask if they can offer you the tax free export paperwork to save yourself about 10% on the list price of the bottles you buy.

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Thank you SIR, for your extensive reply, and your tips!!

Based on what you've answered, and also what i read (on TPF and elsewhere), i plan on doing the following :

Porto :
1) Visiting Ramos Pinto (because of their museum - which my girlfriend might like -, along with the overall positive reviews) ;
2) Traveling to Ramos Pinto would be by metro ;
3) Maybe buy a bottle or two there, if i find something interesting ;
4) Dick's bar.

Lisbon :
5) Visit the Garrafeira Nacional (or a few), as suggested!

I also read a lot about packing wine bottles in luggage. Am i wrong to believe that 6 vintage bottles, surrounded by bubble wraps and clothes, is a good plan?

[Alex Bridgeman]

Ramos Pinto have a nice tasting room for after you take the Lodge tour. The Lodge tour includes a tasting of 3 pretty basic Ports - ruby, tawny and white - but also gives the opportunity to buy by the glass. Last time I was there you could buy a glass of the (very tasty) 1982 vintage.

Don't assume the metro is the best way to get to Ramos Pinto - it's a long walk and a steep hill down from Jardim do Morro to the Gaia Cais. If you do go that way, I recommend using the cable car to get down to the waterfront. Depending on where you're staying, it might be easier and better to take the passenger ferry (///journals.rescue.wider) across the river.

Dick's Bar is a steep climb up the hill from Ramos Pinto, but you can walk through the World of Wine to get up the hill. The good news is that once you're there, you're already at the top of the hill so (nearly) at the same level as the General Torres metro station, which is a 5-10 minute walk away from the Yeatman.

As for travelling with wine, a few years ago I bought a Vin Garde Valise. It's not cheap, but it was a fabulous investment. There are plenty of alternatives - some as simple as a strong, fabric case into which you put a polystyrene bottle shipper. I'd recommend investing in one of the specialist wine shippers. It's such a pain if a bottle breaks. Or you can buy some wine sleeves when you're in Portugal and use those to protect your bottles.

[PhilW]

I agree with Alex's recommendations, but just to add a few more notes/suggestions:
- Ramos Pinto and Ferriera are both good for tour + museum items
- Graham's lodge has perhaps the widest range of ports (including both vintage and colheita) which can be purchased by the glass in their tasting rooms, and a good variety of wines available in their shop (plus an excellent restaurant, Vinum).

On word of warning, depending on whether your preference is for Vintage Port or Tawny/Colheita; on my first visit to Porto I was very surprised by how little mature vintage port was available to taste. All the tours end with one to three glasses of inexpensive ruby/lbv/tawny/pink/white (Taylor do well here with their post-tour tasting, and a good selection of other wines by the glass). If you prefer tawny/colheita then you have no such problem. Similarly for purchasing, if you're after colheita/tawny there are plenty of shops, but if you want vintage (especially if you want mature vintage) you'll have to look much harder; Garrafeira Nacional in Lisbon might well be your best bet.

For carrying wine in luggage, I also have a VinGarde Valise; several of us on the forum have them, and they have been excellent for safe transport of old bottles, and have a modular design so you can decide how much of the case to use for wine, and how much for packing (e.g. one side for each, or both side for full of wine etc). If you're only looking at one or two bottles, then the inflatable wine bottle bags inside a hard-shell suitcase are viable, though not particularly compact.

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Thank you both for your help!

I definitely like the cable car suggestion, which i didn't expect, to say the least!! After looking at pictures, the hill is indeed impressive, and considering that the baby is going to be on me did make the choice easier!!

About the Vin garde valises, i did pass on that suggestion, because i don't think it's worth the money for me (this trip is going to be my first, ever, out of the country). In the future, if i travel more, it is however on the top of my purchase-list! Meanwhile, the wine sleeves are already en route, which will at least protect our clothes

Meanwhile, i am still waiting for an email from Ramos Pinto, for the reservation! Let's hope it works out!

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On word of warning, depending on whether your preference is for Vintage Port or Tawny/Colheita; on my first visit to Porto I was very surprised by how little mature vintage port was available to taste.

I am, indeed, surprised! I expected the port producers to have some older ones for taste! I guess Dick's bar, along with the Garrafeira Nacional will fill the void (and my need)!!

Can i expect to buy older vintage ports in Ramos Pinto? Let's say something 40 years old, or more.

[Alex Bridgeman]

You might be able to buy 1982 from Ramos Pinto, but I don’t remember anything older. You can also buy from Dick’s Bar to take home, but be very careful if you buy anything older than the 1990s from Dick’s Bar as these bottles are fairly priced (ie. relatively cheap) but are fairly priced to reflect their condition and risk.

As Phil says, Portugal is a great place to buy Colheita Ports, but not so much to buy mature Vintage Port (you’d probably be better driving to the US).

[MigSU]

The Ports of Portugal are the tawny Ports. Vintage Ports are the Ports of the UK.

[Mike J. W.]

You might be able to buy 1982 from Ramos Pinto, but I don’t remember anything older. You can also buy from Dick’s Bar to take home, but be very careful if you buy anything older than the 1990s from Dick’s Bar as these bottles are fairly priced (ie. relatively cheap) but are fairly priced to reflect their condition and risk.

As Phil says, Portugal is a great place to buy Colheita Ports, but not so much to buy mature Vintage Port (you’d probably be better driving to the US).

Per Alex's recommendation, if Ramos Pinto does have the 1982 Vintage Port for sale, then buy several bottles. Even though 1982 is not a widely declared year, the 1982 Ramos Pinto VP is an excellent Port. Ramos Pinto's Bom Retiro 20 yo Tawny Port is a very good tawny. They're 30 yo Tawny is supposed to be good as well, but I haven't tried it yet. Have a few bottles of that in the cellar

[MigSU]

I too vouch for the 82 RP. Excellent port.

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Thank you very much! I will then take some time to read about 82's Ramos Pinto Vintage Port, and might try to buy a few bottles!

Also, if you gentlemen have suggestions for a very old vintage port, perhaps the most expensive bottle I'd buy, around 200-300E, i will definitely consider it!!

PS : I do plan on traveling to UK in the next 10 years. When this happens, i will post again here for your tips!

[Glenn E.]

I second all of the above; you have received excellent advice.

I typically recommend Ramos Pinto, Graham, and perhaps Sandeman for lodge visits and/or tours. All are covered above.

In addition to 1982 Ramos Pinto, I heartily recommend their 1983 Vintage Port as well. That vintage was a general declaration, however, so the price might be higher than the 1982 for what might be similar quality. (I cannot recall having ever had the 1982, but the 1983 is wonderful.)

For 200-300 EUR you should be able to find a VP from somewhere in 1963-1970. I'm not fully versed on European prices, but that's roughly what those vintages cost at retail in the US. A word of warning, though: prices in Porto are not competitive. Unless you have a contact or just get lucky, you will most likely be paying tourist prices in and around Porto. Ironically, it is usually best to buy Vintage Port in England, or if you're in the US just use winesearcher.com to find what you want here. (I'm not sure how easy it is to ship into Canada using winesearcher, so that may not be an option for you.)

On the other hand, you probably can find a reasonable price on an old Tawny Port while in Porto. You should be able to get a bottle of 50 Year Old Tawny Port for around 200 EUR and those are superb. (Some also range in price as high as 300 EUR... or even more.)

And yes, I have transported many bottles back to the US by carefully wrapping them in clothes/towels (don't forget to pad the ends!) and carrying them in my luggage. But I, too, have a 12-bottle VinGuarde Valise (VGV) and it is well worth the investment if you think you'll use it with any regularity at all. There was a big sale during COVID when you could get them for $125 and that was a no-brainer. But even at twice that you'll get value out of one in just 2 trips. 2 trips x 12 bottles each trip works out to $10 per bottle to carry them back, and a VGV is excellent protection for your precious wines. Note that you can use a VGV as a regular suitcase, too, by removing the inserts. Or you can remove one insert and use it for half bottles and half clothing. They're very flexible.

I also have a Wine Cruzer which is often mistaken for a Pelican case by airlines, which means they assume it contains guns and give it very special handling. It only holds 8 bottles, but it is even better protection for the bottles than a VGV. It might literally be bulletproof, as it weighs around 24 lbs empty.

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I second all of the above; you have received excellent advice.

I typically recommend Ramos Pinto, Graham, and perhaps Sandeman for lodge visits and/or tours. All are covered above.

In addition to 1982 Ramos Pinto, I heartily recommend their 1983 Vintage Port as well. That vintage was a general declaration, however, so the price might be higher than the 1982 for what might be similar quality. (I cannot recall having ever had the 1982, but the 1983 is wonderful.)

For 200-300 EUR you should be able to find a VP from somewhere in 1963-1970. I'm not fully versed on European prices, but that's roughly what those vintages cost at retail in the US. A word of warning, though: prices in Porto are not competitive. Unless you have a contact or just get lucky, you will most likely be paying tourist prices in and around Porto. Ironically, it is usually best to buy Vintage Port in England, or if you're in the US just use winesearcher.com to find what you want here. (I'm not sure how easy it is to ship into Canada using winesearcher, so that may not be an option for you.)

On the other hand, you probably can find a reasonable price on an old Tawny Port while in Porto. You should be able to get a bottle of 50 Year Old Tawny Port for around 200 EUR and those are superb. (Some also range in price as high as 300 EUR... or even more.)

And yes, I have transported many bottles back to the US by carefully wrapping them in clothes/towels (don't forget to pad the ends!) and carrying them in my luggage. But I, too, have a 12-bottle VinGuarde Valise (VGV) and it is well worth the investment if you think you'll use it with any regularity at all. There was a big sale during COVID when you could get them for $125 and that was a no-brainer. But even at twice that you'll get value out of one in just 2 trips. 2 trips x 12 bottles each trip works out to $10 per bottle to carry them back, and a VGV is excellent protection for your precious wines. Note that you can use a VGV as a regular suitcase, too, by removing the inserts. Or you can remove one insert and use it for half bottles and half clothing. They're very flexible.

I also have a Wine Cruzer which is often mistaken for a Pelican case by airlines, which means they assume it contains guns and give it very special handling. It only holds 8 bottles, but it is even better protection for the bottles than a VGV. It might literally be bulletproof, as it weighs around 24 lbs empty.

Thank you SIR for your input! I am, indeed, looking at some wine suggestions now, as our trip is getting pretty much settled (only the non-portwine parts are to confirm, such as boat tours in Lisbon, surf, etc). Therefore, all the Ramos Pinto suggestions are really appreciated, everyone!

Sadly, in the Quebec province where i live, there is a law that makes pretty much any kind of alcohol a part of a state's monopoly. Consequently, we can't import alcohol that isn't produced locally, at the exception of private restaurants. Only the State's monopoly can import alcohol. This is why i can't get some port shipped from WineSearcher, and other competitors, as they will be kept by the customs officers at the border...

It is also why i can't get my hands on some older vintage ports. Our monopoly does have some pretty good tawnys, and also some recent VPs, but nothing older than 20 years (besides a few exceptions). Best i found was a 1985 Taylor Flatgate VP. For example, there is absolutely no Ramos Pinto vintage bottles available ; only tawnys. Also, since i have a small room dedicated to aging wine in proper conditions, it explains even more my tendency to look for VPs!

Right now, when i look at Garrafeira Nacional, i spotted a 1963 Taylor's VP for €549. It is a good plan? The rest of my budget would be dedicated to whatever vintage Ramos Pinto has in their cellar for sale (82 or 83').

On a side note, i do plan on buying a Vin Garde valide for my future trip in the UK! And will definately buy some bottles, if i ever travel to the US!

Thanks again everyone, and feel free to feed me with VPs to buy in Portugal (what, where, how)!

[winesecretary]

Taylor 1963 is about £300 in the UK. E549 seems toppy. It's also not to everyone's taste (I find it too spirity). If at Garrafeira Nacional and looking to spend money I'd be tempted to buy 1970 Dow, Noval or Fonseca.

[PhilW]

Also, if you gentlemen have suggestions for a very old vintage port, perhaps the most expensive bottle I'd buy, around 200-300E, i will definitely consider it!!

That all depends on your definition of very old. Also you've given us a price range of e200-300, and then asked about the e550 T63 (which I personally feel is overpriced compared to other, better options).

If I stick with your price range of e200-300, and looking at GF stock, I would go for a Fonseca 1970 (e279), or a Niepoort 1977 (e236).
If you're prepared to spend a little more, my suggestion would be a Fonseca 1966 (e419) which I consider to be a great port.
Also note that at those prices, I would expect excellent condition; level base-neck or higher, no sign of seep, and a good red colour, otherwise I would not purchase; you want the best chance of that special bottle to be in great condition when you open it.

[Glenn E.]

Right now, when i look at Garrafeira Nacional, i spotted a 1963 Taylor's VP for €549. It is a good plan? The rest of my budget would be dedicated to whatever vintage Ramos Pinto has in their cellar for sale (82 or 83').

Garrafeira Nacional is not known for their good prices. €549 is quite steep, even for my US-price adjusted brain. (Our prices are generally noticeably higher than EU prices, and much higher than UK prices.) You can occasionally find deals there, but not often. What they're good for is availability - because their prices are high, they tend to have a better selection than other shops. Much like Old Liquors in Miami. Speaking of which, even they have it for $450 and the more normal price in the US is closer to $400.

Remember that this year is the 60th for 1963 Vintage Ports. Unless you have a specific reason to be buying those, they're generally overpriced right now due to all of the anniversary attention.

On a side note, i do plan on buying a Vin Garde valide for my future trip in the UK! And will definately buy some bottles, if i ever travel to the US!

They are having a 50% off Warehouse Sale right now - FlyWithWine.

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Thank you again, gentlemen!

SIR Phil did read me right : i am the kind of person that tries to settle for a certain budget, then easily get interested in something more expensive!

I guess ill keep all these suggestions in mind (1970 Dow, 1970 Noval, 1970 Fonseca, 1977 Niepoort, and the 1966 Fonseca!). Meanwhile, ill have a chat with Ramos Pinto's staff, in order to maybe get a few 82' or 83' VP. First step will, anyway, be at Ramos Pinto. Which means that i'll adapt my budget depending on about much i spent at Ramos Pinto!

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Also note that at those prices, I would expect excellent condition; level base-neck or higher, no sign of seep, and a good red colour, otherwise I would not purchase; you want the best chance of that special bottle to be in great condition when you open it.

Thank you very much! As a rookie, this is not something i would of thought of! You probably saved me a big mistake!!

[Mike J. W.]

I'm with Phil, the '66 Fonseca is a truly special port when the bottle is in good condition. It's actually the best VP that I've had to date. As far as the 1970 VP, I've had the Fonseca and the Dow and the Fonseca is much better than the Dow IMHO. I have not tried the '70 Noval. Happy hunting when you're over there.

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Thank you SIR Mike! I am glad to read that there is some sort of consensus about the Fonseca 66!

[Alex Bridgeman]

I also emphasise most strongly that you ask whoever you buy your Port from, if they offer the tax free shopping service. This could save you up to 20% of the money you spend - you get a refund of the 21% sales tax but have to pay a handling charge.

Note that if you do buy tax free, you will need to take your bag with the bottles to the airline check-in desk, check the bag to get a luggage tag but explain to the desk that you have some bottles in the case which need to be verified by customs. They will give you back you case. You take your case to customs, they will check off the bottles to the receipts, stamp your receipt before you take your case back to the check-in desk and put the case into the hold of your flight home. It doesn't take too long, but you will have to allow some extra time at the airport.

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I also emphasise most strongly that you ask whoever you buy your Port from, if they offer the tax free shopping service. This could save you up to 20% of the money you spend - you get a refund of the 21% sales tax but have to pay a handling charge.

Note that if you do buy tax free, you will need to take your bag with the bottles to the airline check-in desk, check the bag to get a luggage tag but explain to the desk that you have some bottles in the case which need to be verified by customs. They will give you back you case. You take your case to customs, they will check off the bottles to the receipts, stamp your receipt before you take your case back to the check-in desk and put the case into the hold of your flight home. It doesn't take too long, but you will have to allow some extra time at the airport.

Thank you SIR! It's funny, because i was actually reading about you yesterday (in J. D. A. Wiseman's vintage book), looking for some more infos about which vintage i should consider buying! What a coincidence!

After reading your post, I told my girlfriend about getting to the airport a good 30 minutes earlier, just to make sure everything is alright! Thanks again!