So, err, what's the best shipper, eh?

Ghandih · Post by **Ghandih** » 22:10 Thu 12 Feb 2009

Hello everyone,

Happy New Year, and all that. You'll have perhaps noticed that I've been absent for a long time - for which, my apologies - but I recently attended the Cambridge University Tiddlywinks Club annual meal, at which Mr Wiseman provided some fine '63 port, and it got my taste buds going again.

There doesn't seem to be too much lined up so far in the way of port tastings for 2009, in the UK. [If the admin folk agree, I think another posting in this section indexing 2009 tastings might be good idea, superceding the 2008 one, to help us inattentive folk.] So this got me wondering, if I were to suggest a subject for such a gathering, what might it be?

It came to me quite quickly, and has been something I've been mulling over at each tasting I've attended - which is the best shipper? I don't suggest that we can sit down for an evening, quaff some port, and actually reach a definitive answer - heaven forbid. But I would like to move my own opinion foward on the subject. For anyone interested, Taylor was my favourite for a very long time, until I attended Conky's F-Plan in 2008, which suddenly opened my eyes to the wonders of Fonseca. The learned amongst us occasionally suggest to me that Graham's port is a mighty fine contender, and, of course, some folk will bang on about the Noval Nacional. The Noval tends to be too subtle for me, but I'm willing to be proved wrong.

My proposition for this tasting, to be held at an as yet undecided location in the UK (hopefully not too far from Oxford, to make it easy for me), is to pick some vintages that are ticking along nicely at the moment - let's open the bidding with the biggies in the 55-70 sort of slot - and to get a bottle each of the contenders along, probably to pitch against one another in vintage flights. I'm half considering dropped the Nacional from the line-up, just to keep costs manageable, but could be persuaded otherwise. We'd need to taylor the number of shippers to the number of attendees, otherwise it could get cumbersome.

I don't have much in the way of a proposed date, either, though May is looking unlikely. This suggests April or June as possibilities, given that it will take a while to firm up what I freely admit is a floppy proposal.

That's enough from me for now. I've made a puddle; over to you lovely folk to dip a toe in, if you fancy.

Ghandih

PS Admin, having saved a copy of this as a draft, I couldn't find how to actually submit it, so had to resort to copying the text into Word and then back into a new message. Is there no submit/post button in the draft editing section, or am I a numpty?

Post by **jdaw1** » 22:40 Thu 12 Feb 2009

A rectangular tasting of {Fonseca, Taylor, Graham, Dow}×{1955, 1963, 1966, 1970, 1977} would be twenty bottles, without the rarity price of Nacional. Very fine indeed.

As a warm-up, just for practice, how about a 1955 horizontal?

Post by **DRT** » 01:28 Fri 13 Feb 2009

The answer is Fonseca.

But the tasting that JDAW suggests has merits and I would be happy to try to prove the answer wrong.

Derek

PS: GGGGGGGGGhannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, welcome back. You have been missed.

Ghandih · Post by **Ghandih** » 08:11 Thu 19 Feb 2009

Well, a 1955 Horizontal would certainly be a fine thing, so I'll keep my eyes on that. I have nothing older than a 1970 in my meagre cellar, but would be willing to search for a rarity (by which I mean one Uncle Tom doesn't have) or chip in another way.

Meanwhile, 20 bottles sounds like too many to me, and I argue that on the basis that everyone who attends would want to taste all the ports (of course), and, in order to clear 20 bottles, we'd need a fair crowd, diminishing the amount anyone can taste of any one bottle. As there is the tentative 1955 Horizontal on the cards, I wonder if we ought cut that year out of the reckoning, leaving us with four shippers and four years. A nice tidy square that, Julian, I would expect you to be able to reflect in the glass place mats.

Do we think 16 bottles is too many to get a decent sniff of each offering?

hhhGandi

Axel P · Post by **Axel P** » 10:34 Thu 19 Feb 2009

If we do it a little later in the year I would be very happy to arrange it in the RAF Club again.

http://www.rafclub.org.uk/

We did the 70s tasting in Jan there and I think it has an awesome price-value-relationship.

I do like the idea of a 55s tasting, but rather I would be more fond of Dereks idea of a Fonseca, Taylor, Graham, Dow}×{1955, 1963, 1966, 1970, 1977) tasting.

Open for everything, as long as it is good port.

Axel

Post by **DRT** » 22:03 Thu 19 Feb 2009

Axel P wrote:I do like the idea of a 55s tasting, but rather I would be more fond of Dereks idea of a Fonseca, Taylor, Graham, Dow}×{1955, 1963, 1966, 1970, 1977) tasting.

Axel,

I am glad you liked my idea, but think that JDAW may be slightly annoyed that he did not get the credit

Ggghaaaaaaaaandiiiiiiiiiiii,

20 bottles is not too many. 35 is the new standard for a comprehensive horizontal. 20 is just a particularly long afternoon session

Post by **jdaw1** » 22:44 Thu 19 Feb 2009

DRT wrote:35 is the new standard for a comprehensive horizontal

To be fair, 35 with only one mezzanine pint of beer. If multiples beers are allowed, maybe 40 would be achievable.

Post by **jdaw1** » 22:56 Thu 19 Feb 2009

So, we need a date. November? Post-HT October?

In the RAF Club: agreed.

And let’s keep the tasting light at sixteen bottles: {Fonseca, Taylor, Graham, Dow}×{1963, 1966, 1970, 1977}. That would give us a rounded view of the four. Taylor-Fladgate versus Symington.

Post by **DRT** » 23:01 Thu 19 Feb 2009

jdaw1 wrote:So, we need a date. November? Post-HT October?

In the RAF Club: agreed.

And let’s keep the tasting light at sixteen bottles: {Fonseca, Taylor, Graham, Dow}×{1963, 1966, 1970, 1977}. That would give us a rounded view of the four. Taylor-Fladgate versus Symington.

Perhaps two honoured guests could be persuaded to attend such an event?

Derek

PS: I'm in.

PPS: F66=WOTN

Post by **jdaw1** » 04:47 Fri 20 Feb 2009

Ghandih wrote:A nice tidy square that, Julian, I would expect you to be able to reflect in the glass place mats.

Not wanting to disappoint, you might expect to spend the session looking at something like this draft of the placemats.

(The link will change when a date is known.)

Post by **jdaw1** » 04:51 Fri 20 Feb 2009

And, as this is a Taylor-Fladgate versus Symington head-to-head (and should be billed as such), I hope that the makers would be willing to sell us ex-cellars bottles so that the intervening storage cannot be blamed.

And if they are so willing, could we persuade them to add 1927 to the list?

JacobH · Post by **JacobH** » 11:06 Fri 20 Feb 2009

This (in whatever form it finally takes) sounds like an excellent idea. Julian, although it sacrifices some of the absolute efficiency (unless we can source some parallelogram-shaped paper) surely the two sets of two circles at either edge should be merged into a fourth line so that vertical lines are the shippers and the horizontal lines the years?

jdaw1 wrote:And, as this is a Taylor-Fladgate versus Symington head-to-head (and should be billed as such), I hope that the makers would be willing to sell us ex-cellars bottles so that the intervening storage cannot be blamed.

And if they are so willing, could we persuade them to add 1927 to the list?

Or 1945?

Incidentally, Axel, would you mind letting me know (perhaps in a PM?) how much the RAF Club charged you for a room/food/corkage for your tasting? There are lots of venues in London which would be great candidates for an "expensive" tasting (the Worshipful Company of Vintners particularly comes to mind) but it's always a bit difficult to get an idea of reasonable costs.

Post by **DRT** » 11:20 Fri 20 Feb 2009

A slight alteration to the theme could be to secure a representative from Symington and Taylor-Fladgate and invite them to supply what they consider to be the top 2 or 3 wines from each of their brands (limited to no more than three brands per side). That way, neither side could be disadvantaged by our choice of vintages.

We would, of course, pay for the wines.

JacobH · Post by **JacobH** » 12:12 Fri 20 Feb 2009

DRT wrote:A slight alteration to the theme could be to secure a representative from Symington and Taylor-Fladgate and invite them to supply what they consider to be the top 2 or 3 wines from each of their brands (limited to no more than three brands per side). That way, neither side could be disadvantaged by our choice of vintages.

We would, of course, pay for the wines.

Would there be much interest in the shippers in taking part in such a "competition" (even if that's not the intention, it would certainly look that way)?

Axel P · Post by **Axel P** » 14:10 Fri 20 Feb 2009

Jacob, the price for the event was very, very reasonable. We had to pay room fee, combined with cork fee of a total of 150 GBpounds. I thought the facilities to be the most excellent for the cause, that I have so far experienced, though a couple of you being in clubs might have encountered better ones. Actually Lindens IOD is definitely more representative, but will be more expensive, I suppose.

A slight add on comes to a present, which is not mandatory, but very much liked up there. This includes ice water during the tasting as well. A decent dinner could be provided for 30-40 pounds per head and there are fairly cheap rooms right inside the club as well (at least fairly cheap for this central location).

Anyways,if it is in November, I am in. I got the Niepoort vertical in Germany on Nov 27th, but all the other fridays would suit me well.

However, to keep the cost somewhat down I would suggest we keep it either to a Taylors-Symington competition of 63, 66, 70 and 77, which I would much prefer or to fix on a specific year. Since there are 3 main brands of these, we could choose Croft, Fonseca and Taylors vs. Grahams, Dows and Warres (?).

Should we limit the spaces to 14 again + an additional guest. I would consider one not from one of the two companies, such as our good friend Christian (?). Getting two VIPs might cause some tension between them, which I would not want to have on such a tasting.

Do you want me to take the lead in organising the event? Such as getting the date fixed with the club and organising the wines? Who is a "set guest" if there are any?

Derek: I think adding the 27s will become too expensive. We should honour these vintages at a specific tasting.

Axel

Post by **jdaw1** » 14:20 Fri 20 Feb 2009

I think having representatives of the two big port companies would be good-naturedly competitive, rather than unpleasantly so.

And if comparing houses, which was Simon’s original challenge, there should be several vintages. Four or five houses, four or five vintages, would give as fair an assessment as possible.

Post by **DRT** » 14:48 Fri 20 Feb 2009

I agree with JDAW. Provided our guests are good friends and come into this knowing it is a fun event then there should be no unpleasantness.

I have alread emailed a potential guest so can we please not email any more until I get a respose?

Thanks

Derek

Post by **jdaw1** » 19:08 Fri 20 Feb 2009

DRT wrote:I have alread emailed a potential guest so can we please not email any more until I get a respose?

I nominate Derek to be in general charge of the arrangements but not the spelling.

Post by **DRT** » 19:12 Fri 20 Feb 2009

jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:I have alread emailed a potential guest so can we please not email any more until I get a respose?
I nominate Derek to be in general charge of the arrangements but not the spelling.

I axcept the nomminasion.

JacobH · Post by **JacobH** » 10:54 Sat 21 Feb 2009

Axel P wrote:Jacob, the price for the event was very, very reasonable. We had to pay room fee, combined with cork fee of a total of 150 GBpounds. I thought the facilities to be the most excellent for the cause, that I have so far experienced, though a couple of you being in clubs might have encountered better ones. Actually Lindens IOD is definitely more representative, but will be more expensive, I suppose.

A slight add on comes to a present, which is not mandatory, but very much liked up there. This includes ice water during the tasting as well. A decent dinner could be provided for 30-40 pounds per head and there are fairly cheap rooms right inside the club as well (at least fairly cheap for this central location).

Thanks, Axel. That’s good to know. You certainly got a good price. Club rooms are usually cheaper because you effectively pay part of it upfront in your membership fees.

Axel P · Post by **Axel P** » 16:38 Sat 21 Feb 2009

Happy with Derek,

DRT: if you need me to do anything, let me know.

Axel

Post by **DRT** » 17:45 Sat 21 Feb 2009

Axel P wrote:Happy with Derek,

DRT: if you need me to do anything, let me know.

Axel

Thanks, Axel, will do. I think we should definitely use the RAF Club so would need you to book that. Once I have have a response to my email I will let you know and, depending on what that response is, we can decide how best to proceed.

This could be fun

Derek

benread · Post by **benread** » 18:42 Sat 21 Feb 2009

I am interested. Wait to hear what dates are proposed!

Post by **jdaw1** » 20:26 Sat 21 Feb 2009

Dates? My return to the old world is currently set for July, so after that. But August is a bit summery, so after that. That brings us to autumn, and if appropriate, early winter. What constraints do people already have from September to November?

That entails a policy decision? Is this the tasting that happens in London post-harvest-tour? (That is TPF’s decision.) If not, then November. If yes, we need Roy to choose a date. I say not, just so that we aren’t waiting on Roy and can soon book the RAF Club. In which case November.

Post by **DRT** » 21:28 Sat 21 Feb 2009

I vote November for another reason. The prospect of attracing two top flight representatives from Symington and TFP during or immediately after the harvest will be impossible. By November they are likely to have more space in diaries.

We do of course have to start thinking of an event for early/mid Oct to coincide with the end of the

harvest tour.

Can I echo GGGGGhaandi's earlier request that AHB should create and maintain a 2009 schedule in the same helpful manner that he did in 2008?

Post by **DRT** » 21:37 Sat 21 Feb 2009

At this point we seem to have interest from:

Ghandi
Jacob
JDAW
Axel
DRT
Ben

I have given AHB and Christopher an email nudge as they seem to be off doing other things at present and I am sure they will want to be at this. I will do the same with Uncle Tom and KillerB as they rarely spot threads in this section of the Forum.

Anyone else in?

The limit will be 12 + 2 guests. The limit on bottles is likely to be 24: 4 vintages x 3 houses x 2 conglomorates.

Derek

Axel P · Post by **Axel P** » 22:10 Sat 21 Feb 2009

Hey Derek,

we need to come up with a date as this will limit people the most. I suggest a Friday Mid Nov.

Axel

Post by **DRT** » 22:12 Sat 21 Feb 2009

Axel P wrote:Hey Derek,

we need to come up with a date as this will limit people the most. I suggest a Friday Mid Nov.

Axel

Agreed. But I think we need to try to tie 2 potential guests down first. If we can't do that quickly then we will just set a date so that others can make plans. OK?

Post by **jdaw1** » 00:54 Sun 22 Feb 2009

OK with me.

Ghhhandi: look what you’ve started. As a penance you are required, within the next seven days, to open a bottle of port and post a tasting note.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 09:44 Sun 22 Feb 2009

Sounds good to me, but please not the first Friday in November, as I will have more pressing engagements!

Tom

JacobH · Post by **JacobH** » 10:05 Sun 22 Feb 2009

uncle tom wrote:Sounds good to me, but please not the first Friday in November, as I will have more pressing engagements!

Unless Derek has suggested it to the unknown invitee(s) could we aim for one of the other weekends in November, as I might be away for the first weekend?

RonnieRoots · Post by **RonnieRoots** » 10:30 Sun 22 Feb 2009

Please put me down as a 'possible'. Although I haven't got any set plans yet, I do intend to visit the UK/Holland somewhere in the second half of this year. This may just be a good excuse.

Post by **DRT** » 12:54 Sun 22 Feb 2009

Where?
The RAF Club, London

When?:
November 2009, preferrably a Friday night, preferrably not the 6th.

Attendees ("possible" unless stated otherwise ):
DRT (confirmed)
Honoured Guest x 2
Ghandi
Jacob
JDAW
Axel
Ben
Uncle Tom
RonnieRoots
AHB
Christopher

Please let me know if you want to be upgraded from possible to confirmed.

Derek

benread · Post by **benread** » 12:58 Sun 22 Feb 2009

DRT wrote:Please let me know if you want to be upgraded from possible to confirmed.

Will do as soon as we have a proposed date, which I think depends on the guest(s) you have invited.

Post by **jdaw1** » 14:51 Sun 22 Feb 2009

Confirmed.

WS1 · Post by **WS1** » 07:17 Mon 23 Feb 2009

Hi there,

you just came up with another very interesting tasting. Hope it is still not too late and there is a free place left for me to attend as well. Please let me know.

regards

Wolfgang

Post by **DRT** » 09:09 Mon 23 Feb 2009

Updated list...

When?:
November 2009, preferrably a Friday night, but not the 6th or 27th.

Where?
The RAF Club, London

Attendees ("possible" unless stated otherwise ):
DRT (confirmed)
JDAW (confirmed)
Axel (confirmed)
AHB (confirmed)
Wolfgang (confirmed)
Jacob (confirmed)

Ghandi (needs tummy tickled)
Ben (needs a baby-sitter)
Uncle Tom (needs to blow everything up before 13th Nov)
RonnieRoots (needs to book a flight)
Christopher (needs to respond to my emails)
Honoured Guest x 2 (looking promising)

Please let me know if you want to be upgraded from possible to confirmed.

Derek

Axel P · Post by **Axel P** » 11:48 Mon 23 Feb 2009

You can confirm me, as long as it is not the 27th of Nov, in which case Tom and Christopher are not able to join as well, since they are trying some Niepoort in Germany with me.

Axel

Ghandih · Post by **Ghandih** » 13:32 Mon 23 Feb 2009

Well blimey, frankly. Clearly I need to keep a closer eye on things. I planted my acorn of a proposal on Thursday 12th, and gave it some love and a bit of water on the 19th, after four or so other posts. And now, I come back to see how my sapling is getting on, another four days later, and it's gone bonkers. I like a little vanilla - don't we all? - but this is such a lot of oak I'm not sure what to think.

16 ports has become 24 (don't mind that too much, I think, though it does probably nudge the price up). Hallowed guests from the shippers have been invited to explain themselves (no great issues with that, I guess, either). And May/June has become November, which is somewhat less satisfactory, as I was hoping for an earlier return to the fold. Thank-you to all of you who have picked up the idea and run with it - it is nice to know I've suggested something that fires other people's imaginations/taste buds - I'm just not sure that, after such speedy and effective running, what we've now got is what I was after. My plan was, in essence, to [1] compare the shippers, [2] be modest in ambition and budget, and [3] be (relatively) soon in timing. As such, I'm not sure that Meatloaf would be entirely satisfied with our current situation.

The simplest course of action would be to suggest a parting of the threads, with my little event in May/June and the super-duper bash in November, as evolved, but I'm concerned I might be left behind with 'nay pals' and, crucially, 'nay port'. Actually, even simpler than that simplest course would be for me to roll over and accept the proffered tickling of tummy in November as a much better manifestation of what I meant to propose in the first place. Before I do that, however, does anyone have an alternative solution between those two extremes?

Ghandih

PS Julian, good placemat work, as ever. I may try to drink some nice port this week, but a 10-year old Osborne tawny is the next in the frame, and that probably doesn't count.

Post by **jdaw1** » 14:33 Mon 23 Feb 2009

Simple solution.
1. Confirm November.
2. Arrange something smaller for May (whilst I’m still in NY, I add).
3. Post TN on Osborne 10Y tawny.

Post by **DRT** » 20:52 Mon 23 Feb 2009

All of what JDAW said.

Plus, if Ghandiii is desperate for a glass or 8 of port sometime soon he could do no worse than to join this tasting. This is a bring-a-bottle (of mature Vargellas) affair and suitable bottles are available for adoption at modest cost.

Post by **DRT** » 20:56 Mon 23 Feb 2009

Axel P wrote:You can confirm me, as long as it is not the 27th of Nov, in which case Tom and Christopher are not able to join as well, since they are trying some Niepoort in Germany with me.

Axel

AHB is also confirmed (by email to me this morning) so I will update the list.

Does anyone object to either 13th or 20th November?

Derek

PS: List above will now be updated. Should I split out into a new thread?

WS1 · Post by **WS1** » 21:46 Mon 23 Feb 2009

Derek,

I can also confirm my attendance for the 13th or 20th of November this year.

regards
Wolfgang

Post by **DRT** » 22:00 Mon 23 Feb 2009

WS1 wrote:I can also confirm my attendance for the 13th or 20th of November this year.

Excellent

- list updated above.

JacobH · Post by **JacobH** » 22:49 Mon 23 Feb 2009

I can confirm for the 13th or 20th of November, too.

Yes, Ghandih, come to the Vagellas tasting. But we shouldn’t let that stop organisation of something else in May. Perhaps a ‟bring a moderately-priced bottle from a major shipper” off-line?

Post by **DRT** » 22:59 Mon 23 Feb 2009

JacobH wrote:I can confirm for the 13th or 20th of November, too.

Excellent

- list above updated.

Ghandih · Post by **Ghandih** » 10:12 Wed 25 Feb 2009

Well there we go - good problem solving, team. I'll attend the November main event (either date fine by me), and also think about an interim May occasion, although a friend's wedding and stag that month may knock it off the radar. Best advice, as proferred, might therefore be to attend the Vargellas tasting. Friday night, in central London - should be doable. I'll add my interest to that thread.

hGandi

Post by **DRT** » 20:44 Wed 25 Feb 2009

Ghandih wrote:Friday night, in central London - should be doable. I'll add my interest to that thread.

But it's on a Tuesday

Post by **DRT** » 20:46 Wed 25 Feb 2009

Updated list...

When?:
November 2009, preferrably a Friday night, but not the 6th or 27th.

Where?
The RAF Club, London

Attendees ("possible" unless stated otherwise ):
DRT (confirmed)
JDAW (confirmed)
Axel (confirmed)
AHB (confirmed)
Wolfgang (confirmed)
Jacob (confirmed)
Ghandi (confirmed)

Ben (needs a baby-sitter)
Uncle Tom (needs to blow everything up before 13th Nov)
RonnieRoots (needs to book a flight)
Christopher (needs to respond to my emails)
Honoured Guest x 2 (looking promising)

Please let me know if you want to be upgraded from possible to confirmed.

Derek

Post by **jdaw1** » 21:11 Wed 25 Feb 2009

DRT wrote:Honoured Guest x 2 (looking promising)

Please let me know if you want to be upgraded from possible to confirmed.

Please upgrade me from ‟confirmed” to ‟Honoured Guest”.