2007 Cask Sample Tasting - London - ?? May 2009

[DRT]

As many of you will know I have been able to secure a reasonable number (15 to 20) of promises of Cask Samples of 2007 VP from various major shippers with the reciprocal promise to them that I will organise an event where a small group of ers will attempt a serious tasting and review of their new wines. On the advice of many of the shippers I have contacted the event needs to take place within 2 to 4 weeks of the bottling of the samples. With the expectation of some of these not being available until after 23rd April this means the event has to take place around mid May.

Firstly: Who is interested in doing this?

Secondly: Does anyone have any suggestions on how it should be organised? I am working on the basis that this is not our normal event were we eat steak and drink our way steadily through 1 to 2 bottles of VP each over the course of an evening. Do we need to limit numbers so that the wines can be evaluated over a few days from opening? Should we have food before, after or during the tasting? How many of these wines is it practical to open at one event and still get a proper view of each wine? These and other questions like this need to be asked and answered.

Thirdly: Where should we do this? The relaxed atmosphere or The Crusting Pipe or somewhere that could provide a more clinical environment such as the RAF Club?

Fourthly: Does anyone know of anyone who has tasted lots of cask samples who could advise the above and might be interested in attending?

Derek

[benread]

Firstly: Who is interested in doing this?

Me!

Secondly: Does anyone have any suggestions on how it should be organised? I am working on the basis that this is not our normal event were we eat steak and drink our way steadily through 1 to 2 bottles of VP each over the course of an evening. Do we need to limit numbers so that the wines can be evaluated over a few days from opening? Should we have food before, after or during the tasting? How many of these wines is it practical to open at one event and still get a proper view of each wine? These and other questions like this need to be asked and answered.

I suspect that absent a weekend or a half day we are talking realistcially about this being a weekday evening. That means either starting tasting early and then eating late (say 9pm) or vice versa.

Thirdly: Where should we do this? The relaxed atmosphere or The Crusting Pipe or somewhere that could provide a more clinical environment such as the RAF Club?

TCP is always very relaxed and welcoming. And no cost!

Fourthly: Does anyone know of anyone who has tasted lots of cask samples who could advise the above and might be interested in attending?

Derek

no. sorry

[RonnieRoots]

I've tasted quite a few caks samples, and I can tell you it can be tiresome work. Lots of flavours, and lots of tannins. I would advise to have plenty of water and bread (plain white) at hand for palate cleansing. If you have to chance to taste the ports over an extended period of time, that would be ideal.

Afterwards, you'll be very, very thirsty for a refreshing beer.

Unfortunately, I can't be there in May.

[RonnieRoots]

Oh, and one other thing. Although it may be against your nature: spit, don't swallow.

[JacobH]

I'd certainly be interested in attending such an event (which I hope is described as the largest ever 2007 horizontal ). Considering the cost, I think the service we get from the Crusting Pipe is excellent; especially if this is broken over two days. The whole spitting thing might be an issue though and I am somewhat worried that I'd be able to get through 15-20 cask samples before my palate complete collapsed...

[DRT]

Just a little reminder in connection to the references to cost: all of the port is free[/b]

Thanks for the advice Ronnie.

Attendees:

• DRT
• Benread
• JacobH

[JacobH]

Just a little reminder in connection to the references to cost: all of the port is free

Might as well upgrade to the Ritz or Waldorf

Thanks for the advice Ronnie.

Attendees:

• DRT
• Benread
• JacobH

You're bringing 8 people? Or intending drinking 8 times as much Port as the rest of us?


DRT Admin note: Have corrected my BBcode mess in this and my original post

[jdaw1]

Being the father of 2009-type child, it is very possible that I will be buying a case or two of 2007. Please could I be sent samples of those deemed the best few? (Where 2 ≤ few ≤ 5.)

[DRT]

Being the father of 2009-type child, it is very possible that I will be buying a case or two of 2007. Please could I be sent samples of those deemed the best few? (Where 2 ≤ few ≤ 5.)

OK.

[Andy Velebil]

Derek,

Here is my $ 0.02,

- Do it over two days in a row, minimum.
- only a enough of a pour to taste (remember each person will need at least 4 pours each over two days)
- I'd do two tastings each day, total of four.
- taste once in the late morning (or very early afternoon) and once in the late evening
- no food at all while tasting
- spit everything, no matter how bad you want to drink it....you need to keep a clear head the whole time
- serve double blind...that is the only truly fair way to do it. If it is in a unique bottle (ala Taylors) but it into a more normal shaped bottle and have someone else not tasting bag them all up and put numbers on the bags. That way no one knows what each bagged bottle is, except by a number.
- do it in a quite place that is well lit (a person house is probably best for this..or a large hotel room)
- No discussing the Ports until ALL tasting notes are done on day 2...you don't want people influencing others for this type event. It is ment so each person gives THEIR OWN opinion on the Port and not something influenced by others.

[DRT]

Some one else just gave me very similar advice to that provided by Andy. I will contemplate and post some thoughts later.

[jdaw1]

As TNs have been promised to the trade, exchanging some sociability for greater independence is probably appropriate.

[Glenn E.]

As many of you will know I have been able to secure a reasonable number (15 to 20) of promises of Cask Samples of 2007 VP from various major shippers with the reciprocal promise to them that I will organise an event where a small group of ers will attempt a serious tasting and review of their new wines. On the advice of many of the shippers I have contacted the event needs to take place within 2 to 4 weeks of the bottling of the samples. With the expectation of some of these not being available until after 23rd April this means the event has to take place around mid May.

Wow! How very cool!

Firstly: Who is interested in doing this?

Me! Seriously. I have some work to do to get it arranged, but this is too cool to pass up. With a month and a half to go, I think it should be possible. The only potential obstacle will be the cost of the airfare... even in this dismal climate the airlines still seem to be charging an arm and a leg for air travel.

Secondly: Does anyone have any suggestions on how it should be organised? I am working on the basis that this is not our normal event were we eat steak and drink our way steadily through 1 to 2 bottles of VP each over the course of an evening. Do we need to limit numbers so that the wines can be evaluated over a few days from opening? Should we have food before, after or during the tasting? How many of these wines is it practical to open at one event and still get a proper view of each wine? These and other questions like this need to be asked and answered.

I'll leave this to those with more practice.

Thirdly: Where should we do this? The relaxed atmosphere or The Crusting Pipe or somewhere that could provide a more clinical environment such as the RAF Club?

Seattle! Either TCP or the RAF Club sounds great to me, as I have seen neither.

Fourthly: Does anyone know of anyone who has tasted lots of cask samples who could advise the above and might be interested in attending?

I'll send you a PM.

[jdaw1]

Derek: the NY crowd have drunk with Glenn. He’s good he’s one of us. Include him in.

[Glenn E.]

Thank you for the fine reference, but unfortunately Derek already knows better.

I met Derek, Tom, and Frederick in Portugal last year - we toured Quinta da Pacheca together and then had lunch at the Douro Inn with my wife and parents. Miraculously, my wife hasn't divorced me nor have my parents disowned me for the experience.

[Glenn E.]

On the advice of many of the shippers I have contacted the event needs to take place within 2 to 4 weeks of the bottling of the samples. With the expectation of some of these not being available until after 23rd April this means the event has to take place around mid May.

After some quick checking, it appears that 3rd or 4th weekend in May would be easiest for me to accomodate. (That's the weekend of the 16th-17th or the 23rd-24th.) May 9th is my wife's birthday (and it would not be advisable for me to be in London without her on her birthday) and May 10th is Mother's Day in the US (and it would not be advisable for me to separate my wife from her Mother on that day). The first weekend (May 2-3) doesn't fit my work schedule.

If circumstances declare that only the weekend of May 9-10 will work, then I'll see if I can find a way to bring my wife with me without causing my Mother-in-law to hate me.

[DRT]

Participants: (updated from expressions of interest recieved here and by email/PM)

1. DRT
2. Beanread
3. JacobH
4. AHB
5. Christopher
6. Uncle Tom
7. JDAW (virtually)
8. Glenn E. (in person or virtually)

From the advice I have had to date it seems the only way to ensure we properly evaluate these wines is to each taste them a number of times over a few days. I am therefore closing the participants list at the 8 named above, at least for now, until we have a definate plan of how we will do this. Please do declare an interest if you wish to join a reserve list should any of the above drop out or we decide to go for an approach that provides enough samples to allow more than 8 participants.

Derek

[jdaw1]

It isn’t right that a partial and absent participant should usurp somebody willing to do the fullness of the event. So I hereby express an availability to stand aside.

[DRT]

It isn’t right that a partial and absent participant should usurp somebody willing to do the fullness of the event. So I hereby express an availability to stand aside.

Extremely honourable. However, one of the options I am considering, having been suggested by one of the participants listed above, is not having a gathering at all and doing this entirely virtually. So, until a decision on format is made you remain "in" if that is OK with you?

Derek

[jdaw1]

If I am in on the fullness of the event, as you imply is possible, then wild horses couldn’t stop me.
If I am in on only a part of the event, it would be unreasonable of me to block somebody who would otherwise be in on the fullness.

[DRT]

If I am in on the fullness of the event, as you imply is possible, then wild horses couldn’t stop me.
If I am in on only a part of the event, it would be unreasonable of me to block somebody who would otherwise be in on the fullness.

A reasonable stance on both counts.

[uncle tom]

Any date in May, other than the first weekend, is good for me.

Tom

[JacobH]

If I am in on the fullness of the event, as you imply is possible, then wild horses couldn’t stop me.
If I am in on only a part of the event, it would be unreasonable of me to block somebody who would otherwise be in on the fullness.

I would respectfully associate myself with those thoughts. It may be that, with multiple-tastings on and over multiple days, it would prove quite difficult for me to do such a tasting justice. Considering that this opportunity is unique (and I don’t think I’ve expressed this in public, but much respect should be given to DRT for making this a possibility!), if necessary, once the final dates are out, I would be happy to pass on (and wait until we do a retrospective in 20-or-so years’ time ).

[Axel P]

Derek,

there should be an official 2007 tasting organised by the IVDP and I will organise an event like this in Germany as well. The cask samples do sometimes not show the full potential of the wine and they can be a little unstable as well. I will contact the IVDP for the date of the event.

I can very much stress Andy's points as they are easily forgotten or done differently. Tasting young Ports in a row is very interesting but tyring as well.

I am trying to get the IVDP to organise a full 2007 Vintage Port tasting in Germany. Same location as the Niepoort tasting I will be doing on Nov 27th. I will post it for sure and keep you guys in the loop.

Axel

[jdaw1]

Andy,

You spoke with seeming authority on tasting cask samples. The authority might just have been that that of a policeman accustomed to being obeyed when in uniform, or it might have come from experience and knowledge. Let’s assume or at least hope for that latter.

Please, how does one interpret what is found?

• In matters of weight, heft, length, stickiness and other mouthfeel-type things, how would these compare with what happens twenty years later? E.g., if it feels light by the standards of a moderate mature port (say, Ramos-Pinto 1985), does that mean it will be light when mature? I.e., are cask samples bigger or smaller than the mature thing?
• Obviously tannins will soften, hopefully lots, but how do the balance of fruits change? If there is a balance between sweet-red fruits (strawberry raspberry), bitter-red fruits (cranberry), black fruits (black currant and blackberry), and yellow fruits (esp. pineapple), then which would predominate when mature?

[Andy Velebil]

Andy,

You spoke with seeming authority on tasting cask samples. The authority might just have been that that of a policeman accustomed to being obeyed when in uniform, or it might have come from experience and knowledge. Let’s assume or at least hope for that latter.

Don't make me come out there and beat you down, handcuff you, and throw you in "the hole" for the next 30 years to age like a fine VP. Oh and yes the latter...

I know you've also had some really young ones on the Harvest Trip last year. So you've already got some experience as to how hard and rough they can be. Some are almost undrinkable at this stage for most. Acurately reviewing young VP cask samples is really something that only comes with time and experience. I can honestly say from experience that when I first had young cask samples I gravitated toward the ones that showed the best at that time. Now since I have had far more experience I know that I chose the ones that weren't the top of the heap back then. Why was that? Because the ones that showed the best to me, at that time by my inexperienced palate, were the early maturing ones. Simply due to the fact they were a easier drinking port so young. The monsters, or top VP's, tend to be the ones that don't do so well in large tastings by people not well versed in evaluating Cask Samples.

I've seen this first hand at Port tastings, especially blind tastings. I was at a double blind tastings of the 2003 VP's when they came out and they were ranked/scoring by all in attendance. What we all agree today as the best of the vintage mostly came out at the bottom of the rankings in that tasting! The early to mid term drinkers are what came out on top.

[DRT]

Based on the fact that most of the shippers have offered two samples of each wine I am now thinking of doing two different things with these samples:

1. An offline, being a combination of both physical and virtual, using one sample of each of the wines that I am given two of. Depending on the number of wines involved this may be split over 2 events to avoid palate fatigue. The maximum number of attendees at such and event or events would be 12. It is unlikely that I will include feedback from virtual attendees in any report that goes back to the shippers due to the potential damage that can be done to the wines whilst winging their way through the postal service. This should not disuade virtual attendees from throwing their hat in the ring as this part of the tasting is mostly about allowing as many ers as possible to taste these wines.

2. Spliting the remaining bottles (i.e. the second bottles of those I am given two of and any bottles that I am given only one of) into 3 or 4 smaller bottles and distributing to 3 or 4 people who are prepared to spend almost every night for 2 or 3 weeks tasting these wines and giving them a proper evaluation. As this is the serious part of the evauation, I do not believe that this option can include sending samples through the post either in the UK or internationally as the wines will surely suffer from being opened and then shipped to wherever over a period of days. This will therefore present a significant logistical challenge to anyone who wants to participate in this part of the tasting.

Regardless of whether or not you are in the group of 8 who have already expressed an interest, please let me know if you would want to participate in 1, 2 or both. Please only express and interest in 2 if you intend making a serious attempt at doing it properly. At this point, based on previous expressions of interest, I believe the willing volunteers are as follows:

Option 1:

1. DRT
2. Benread
3. JacobH
4. AHB
5. Christopher
6. Uncle Tom
7. JDAW (virtual attendee)
8. Glenn E.
9. Andy V (virtual attendee)

Option 2:

1. DRT
2. AHB

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

i would love to take part in the virtual one..I'll email you to discuss it.

[DRT]

i would love to take part in the virtual one..I'll email you to discuss it.

List updated

[jdaw1]

It is unlikely that I will include feedback from virtual attendees in any report that goes back to the shippers due to the potential damage that can be done to the wines whilst winging their way through the postal service.

Agreed. But in which case include me in only if that doesn’t cause anybody else to be excluded.

And if I’m out, send me samples of those few (2 ≤ few ≤ 5) that are candidates to be bought for a young son and a young nephew.

[RonnieRoots]

Andy is spot on with his replies. When tasting barrel samples, it is not only important to see what the port tastes like, but you should also know the usual profile of the producer. For example: if you taste the young Taylor, and it is actually drinking well, you should doubt the quality. The 2003 was so incredibly tannic and acidic that it literally brought tears to my eyes. A classic Taylor I would say. Fonseca is completely different, and much more approachable when young. The 2000 was great to drink until 2004/2005 when it shut down. More important than actual enjoyment, or drinkability, you will want to look for the following:
- producer profile
- complexity
- (tannic) structure
- depth

Because of the incredible tannins of these young ports, it's important to clean your palate as much as you can.

[JacobH]

[...]you should also know the usual profile of the producer.

- serve double blind...that is the only truly fair way to do it.

I wonder how to reconcile these comments. My thought, initially, would be that blind would be the only fair way of doing it, but I see the logic in RonnieRoots’ statement (especially as some Ports, such as the Niepoort Secundum are now being blended to mature young). Perhaps the participants in group 2 could do a non-blind re-evaluation?

[Andy Velebil]

At this stage you are soley basing it on whats in the glass. Knowing who made it is, IMO, something you shouldn't know until your done writting your TN's on them. Something we could debate forever, and not to hijack the thread, but it removes any pre-concieved notions that one may have about a house. It lets the wine speak for itself.

[jdaw1]

It lets the wine speak for itself.

But some people want the wine to speak for how it will be in twenty years.

[Glenn E.]

It lets the wine speak for itself.

But some people want the wine to speak for how it will be in twenty years.

That's why you go back after doing the blind tasting and add commentary to your notes based on the producer.

Put it this way: if the only reason you can perceive the house style in a young Port is if you know who's house it is and can look specifically for those characteristics, then the house style is not being properly represented by the Port. The house style should be apparent even when you do not know which house it is.

Let the Port speak for itself, then go back later to determine whether or not it is properly representing its producer and potential for aging.

[jdaw1]

My understanding of the recommendation is now as follows.

1. Taste blind. Take notes. Reach no conclusions.
2. Reveal producer names, and compare tasting notes to that producer’s style.
   • Houses with a full-bodied reputation, and an approachable cask sample, haven’t done so well this year.
   • Houses with a lighter reputation, and an approachable cask sample, are presumably on par?
   • Houses with a full-bodied reputation, and a horribly tannic cask sample, are presumably on par?
   • Houses with a lighter reputation, and a horribly tannic cask sample, are what?

[DRT]

Some further changes to my thoughts on the organisation of this as a result of various conversations by PM and email.

1. The off-line will be limited to 8 wines to avoid palate fatigue. The maximum number of attendees will be capped at 10 rather than 12 to ensure we can have decent sized pours from each bottle.

2. The evaluation of the samples over a period of a few days will be arranged by email rather than here as it will only involve a very small group, probably no more than three due to the amount of wine required to do it properly.

3. Depending on how many samples I recieve and the size of each sample (probably either half bottles or 750ml bottles) a second off-line may be arranged separately. I will not know whether or not this is possible until the samples actually arrive and I know what volume of wine I have to play with.

4. Given that the off-line part of this will be on a smaller scale than I (rather unrealistically and optomistically) thought it would be I would suggest that The Crusting Pipe is the most suitable venue.

Derek

[DRT]

US contingent: please see this.

Sorry, you will have to try to find some cask samples of 07VP from a US source.

[Glenn E.]

That seems prudent, though disappointing.

No update yet on my travel. I'm still working on it, but since my immediate supervisor is in the hospital in Dublin right now it is difficult to get approval for business travel. If I wanted to take vacation... no problem, the EVP here in Seattle could sign off on that. But I'm trying to make this a combined trip to keep my costs down.

[jdaw1]

US contingent: please see this.

Sorry, you will have to try to find some cask samples of 07VP from a US source.

That seems prudent, though disappointing.

Prudent, respectful, and disappointing. The right thing to do.

[DRT]

Some further changes to my thoughts on the organisation of this as a result of various conversations by PM and email.

1. The off-line will be limited to 8 wines to avoid palate fatigue. The maximum number of attendees will be capped at 10 rather than 12 to ensure we can have decent sized pours from each bottle.

2. The evaluation of the samples over a period of a few days will be arranged by email rather than here as it will only involve a very small group, probably no more than three due to the amount of wine required to do it properly.

3. Depending on how many samples I recieve and the size of each sample (probably either half bottles or 750ml bottles) a second off-line may be arranged separately. I will not know whether or not this is possible until the samples actually arrive and I know what volume of wine I have to play with.

4. Given that the off-line part of this will be on a smaller scale than I (rather unrealistically and optomistically) thought it would be I would suggest that The Crusting Pipe is the most suitable venue.

Derek

1. May have to be scaled down further as I now know that a number of the samples I will recieve will be 375ml bottles. Apologies for falsely raising expectations but I will only have what I am very kindly given by each producer.

2. Will proceed as stated above but will perhaps involve fewer people than I had hoped due to availability of wine.

3. Is now unlikely to happen.

4. Stands unaffected.

[Glenn E.]

Since my company isn't being efficient about responding to my travel request, I'm going to have to cancel my plans to attend this tasting in person. While I would really love to attend, it doesn't seem cost effective compared to two or three trips to NYC for tastings. So I'll step aside and let someone else who can reach London more economically participate.

If there is another change in plans for the tasting and you do decide to send tasting samples via postal service, I would love to be included in that group.

[Axel P]

Derek,

could you disclose already which Ports you will be tasting since I will be opeing the same then to discuss them with you virtually.

Axel

[DRT]

This tasting will now be combined with the one planned for 20th May. See here.

Axel - all wines are being tasted blind so I will not be revealing which ones I have until the end of May.