Fonseca 1963, 1966, 1970, 1985, and also 1977 and 1994

[KillerB]

Posts quoted from, or separated from, tasting note 1970 Fonseca vintage port, the splitting having been done by jdaw1.

Deep red colour, centre just off opaque. More closed on the nose than the '66 shown alongside. Offering sweet candy and quince on the nose. Sweet in the mouth, still showing plenty of cheek-drying tannins. Good complexity in the mouth with plenty of layers of flavours. Long and delicious aftertaste, with sweet strawberry lingering for a long time. This is good now, but will lose its excessive burliness over the next 5-20 years and will be much better then. 92/100, drunk 14 October 2009 after 8 hours decanting.

The final sample from this bottle is being used to toast AHB on his 46th birthday, one week after decanting.

Extremely dark, almost opaque in the centre of the glass. Closed nose. Huge, thick and brooding. Dark fruits with spice on the mid palate. Massive tannins in the finish. This is undoubtedly the best bottle of F70 I have ever had. Although only a few year passed between the production of the F63 and F66 that accompanied it this shows an immaturity that puts those other wines slightly in the shade. Fabulous.

Is this as good as it gets? Could F85 reach even higher? I'm sure we will have lots of fun seeing if it does :wink

[End posts quoted by jdaw1 to maintain sense of split thread.]

I've always been a fan of this Port and I suspect that my fandom will continue to grow.

[Roy Hersh]

I love the F70, but then again I am also in lust with both the 1963 and 1966 versions too. The question ... which is the best of these three VPs? I ponder this often, actually. IMO, it is really a bottle by bottle situation as best bottles of all 3 are absolutely marvelous, however today the F70 is a notch better than the other 2 which are showing considerably more mature. The F85 will certainly rival any of these, but will it best them all? The jury is still out, but I would not be surprised at all. The F70 is truly one of the great Vintage Ports for my palate ... a top 5 in the past 40 years!

[DRT]

Asking that question is a bit like trying to pick out the ugly ones in a Miss World contest

I love all three of these, and the F85, and it is difficult to think of any other producer who has produced such consistently brilliant vintage ports in three consecutive general declarations. I'm sure Nacional 63, 66 and 70 would be contenders but I still think as a trio the Fonsecas would top the pile.

[jdaw1]

I completely agree with Roy, and with Derek, and it seems with everybody. The trio of F63 F66 F70 are just wonderful, and F85 is a too-young monster that will probably soften into something about as wonderful, — something about which we can argue over many bottles.

[g-man]

So when's the next big fonseca vertical tasting?

[Glenn E.]

I completely agree with Roy, and with Derek, and it seems with everybody. The trio of F63 F66 F70 are just wonderful, and F85 is a too-young monster that will probably soften into something about as wonderful, ± something about which we can argue over many bottles.

I tend to like my vintage Ports somewhat more mature than most of you, so for me the F63 is currently the best of those three. The F70 probably needs another 10 years to peak for me.

But when it comes to all-time greats, you have to also consider the F77 and F94. I don't agree with the 100-point ratings for either of them, but they're both at or very near the top of their vintages. Truly an impressive run.

[g-man]

I completely agree with Roy, and with Derek, and it seems with everybody. The trio of F63 F66 F70 are just wonderful, and F85 is a too-young monster that will probably soften into something about as wonderful, ± something about which we can argue over many bottles.

I tend to like my vintage Ports somewhat more mature than most of you, so for me the F63 is currently the best of those three. The F70 probably needs another 10 years to peak for me.

But when it comes to all-time greats, you have to also consider the F77 and F94. I don't agree with the 100-point ratings for either of them, but they're both at or very near the top of their vintages. Truly an impressive run.

For drinking now, I feel the f77 has reached perfect drinking window and should keep that way. While not 100pters, they are pretty damn near perfect. Last few times i've had it I've always t hoguht 95-97 range.

The Fonseca 66 sample that julian sent me though was out of this world.

Perhaps the admin should split out these posts into the discussion section.

[jdaw1]

Posts quoted from, or separated from, tasting note 1970 Fonseca vintage port, the splitting having been done by jdaw1.

[Roy Hersh]

There have been many good points made in the discussion and I am sorry for creating a split from Alex's great tasting note, which was what really got me thinking to begin with. I really enjoyed his read on the 1970 Fonseca, even though it is contrarian to my own, it was very eloquently stated.

Derek mentioned "consistency" and proffered the statement: ...

and it is difficult to think of any other producer who has produced such consistently brilliant vintage ports in three consecutive general declarations

. There are two others that also excelled with the same troika of vintages, and it is clearly a matter of personal taste whether you like these choices or not ... however, Taylor and Graham's both did an outstanding job in '63/'66/'70.

I then look at all generally declared vintages since that time and ponder which of these 3 top tier shippers has the most consistent string over all (and I will discount 1975 for all 3 producers ... just because) during the subsequent 39 years and one of these Port houses stands above the other two. For me at least, that Shipper is Graham's. I may prefer single bottlings by Fonseca in one vintage or another if not a handful of vintages, Taylor also wins some vintage battles for me, but when I look for sheer and absolute CONSISTENCY as the sole criteria (during the aforementioned time frame), Graham wins in that regard ... at least for my palate.

[KillerB]

I remember the 63/66/70 tasting very well. All three of Graham's, Taylor and Fonseca showed up superbly. It remains one of, if not the single, most consistently high quality tastings that I've attended. It was a shame for poor Sandeman, a lovely producer, that it was up against such heavyweights.

My problem with the 1977 is the prices that are being charged based upon this 100 point fallacy. I tried getting a bottle yesterday and it was £150. I told the guy it was too expensive, whereupon he tried to flog me a bottle of Warre 80 or Quarles Harris 80. I didn't want a reduction in standard of bottle, I wanted a reduction in price to something reasonable. He went on to tell me how much better the 1977 vintage was than 1970, a fact that is disputed, sometimes vigorously, here and on Roy's site. Having decided that his offerings were above (in price) or below (in standard, despite both being nice) what I wanted, and a call came on my mobile, I finished the conversation quickly before I started ranting at him, which would have been the next stage.

[jdaw1]

I am sorry for creating a split from Alex's great tasting note

No, don’t apologise for starting an interesting conversation. The tasting note hasn’t lost out, it has gained a link to something worthwhile.

I then look at all generally declared vintages since that time and ponder which of these 3 top tier shippers has the most consistent string over all (and I will discount 1975 for all 3 producers ... just because) during the subsequent 39 years and one of these Port houses stands above the other two. For me at least, that Shipper is Graham's.

I prefer Fonseca in the three consecutive vintages, and in ’77 and in ’85. Neither thrill me in ’75 ’80 ’83; and the 1990s and more recent stuff I’m not qualified to judge. Which might be light disagreement with Roy.

[DRT]

Derek mentioned "consistency" and proffered the statement: ...

and it is difficult to think of any other producer who has produced such consistently brilliant vintage ports in three consecutive general declarations

. There are two others that also excelled with the same troika of vintages, and it is clearly a matter of personal taste whether you like these choices or not ... however, Taylor and Graham's both did an outstanding job in '63/'66/'70.

Agreed. All three did a superb job but I have to say I have found Fonseca to be consistently top of the pile in the tastings that I have had where these three producers were presented side by side in any or all of these three vintages. That is my personaly taste but I would also add that the Fonseca's from these vintages do tend to appear younger, darker and more tannic that those of the other shippers mentioned which suggests to me that the Fonseca's have longer legs. We will just have to keep comparing all 9 wines together on a regular basis over the next 20 years or so to find out the correct answer

I then look at all generally declared vintages since that time and ponder which of these 3 top tier shippers has the most consistent string over all (and I will discount 1975 for all 3 producers ... just because) during the subsequent 39 years and one of these Port houses stands above the other two. For me at least, that Shipper is Graham's. I may prefer single bottlings by Fonseca in one vintage or another if not a handful of vintages, Taylor also wins some vintage battles for me, but when I look for sheer and absolute CONSISTENCY as the sole criteria (during the aforementioned time frame), Graham wins in that regard ... at least for my palate.

I agree with this for the longer time period referred to but I still can't think of a consecutive trio from one shipper that can beat the F63, 66 and 70.

[Glenn E.]

I actually split fairly evenly for the big 3 across these vintages.

1963: Fonseca, Graham, Taylor.
1966: Taylor, Graham, Fonseca.
1970: Graham and Taylor in that order but practically tied, followed by Fonseca.
1977: Fonseca is the clear winner, followed by Taylor and Graham in that order but practically tied.
1985: Graham is a narrow winner over Fonseca. Taylor is a distant third for me.
1994: Graham and Taylor in that order but again practically tied, followed by Fonseca. Vesuvio has to creep into the conversation in this vintage, and I have it tied with the Fonseca.

I have head-to-head tastings for 1970-1994, and my notes are fairly clear in all cases.

Using 3-2-1 scoring, that gives Graham 14 points with Fonseca and Taylor tied at 11. Close, but a clear victory for Graham. Which surprises me, because I thought I was going to have picked Taylor.

What's interesting to note is that for the original 3 vintages of the discussion, I actually have Fonseca rated third. Graham has a win and two seconds, Taylor a 1-2-3, and Fonseca a win and two thirds.

I have very little experience with the big 3 in '80, '83, and '91/'92, and zero experience with them in '75. But I'd be interested to hear what others thing about their relative merits in those vintages as well.

[g-man]

I actually split fairly evenly for the big 3 across these vintages.

1963: Fonseca, Graham, Taylor.
1966: Taylor, Graham, Fonseca.
1970: Graham and Taylor in that order but practically tied, followed by Fonseca.
1977: Fonseca is the clear winner, followed by Taylor and Graham in that order but practically tied.
1985: Graham is a narrow winner over Fonseca. Taylor is a distant third for me.
1994: Graham and Taylor in that order but again practically tied, followed by Fonseca. Vesuvio has to creep into the conversation in this vintage, and I have it tied with the Fonseca.

I have head-to-head tastings for 1970-1994, and my notes are fairly clear in all cases.

Using 3-2-1 scoring, that gives Graham 14 points with Fonseca and Taylor tied at 11. Close, but a clear victory for Graham. Which surprises me, because I thought I was going to have picked Taylor.

What's interesting to note is that for the original 3 vintages of the discussion, I actually have Fonseca rated third. Graham has a win and two seconds, Taylor a 1-2-3, and Fonseca a win and two thirds.

I have very little experience with the big 3 in '80, '83, and '91/'92, and zero experience with them in '75. But I'd be interested to hear what others thing about their relative merits in those vintages as well.

I dont' remember the 80 for taylor, but the graham's is the clear winner in that vintage amongst the 3, Fonseca while enjoyable is not up to snuff.

the 83 saw similar results where I felt the grahams was first and fonseca would be last.

Curious to hear about the 91/92 though.

[Roy Hersh]

Derek wrote:

I agree with this for the longer time period referred to but I still can't think of a consecutive trio from one shipper that can beat the F63, 66 and 70.

Therefore you and I agree 100% in this case. We both believe that Graham's is THE MOST consistent producer of VP since 1970 in generally declared vintages (not including 1975). We also both find Fonseca at the top of the exalted aforementioned trio of vintages. To me, only Nacional bests Fonseca in all 3 vintages, but that was their greatest period of production ... including 1967 too. Taylor's did a marvelous job in 1963 and I really like the 1966 and obviously the 1970 too, but Fonseca is more precise and provides greater complexity in all three vintages ... 1966 maybe the closest race of the three. Graham's is solid in all three vintages and although I am a fan of the 1966, that to me is the weakest Graham's of the 3. That said, I typically rate that VP in the lower-mid 90 point range. Juicy and balanced, just not as refined as the Taylor or Fonseca.

Clearly, this is a matter of personal taste and one's opinion can be swayed by a specific bottle or tasting, but I've had all of these more times than I can count and far more than I have ever written about. Alex K. mentioned that Oct. 2005 tasting in which we built a great theme for our first online together. For many, at that time, it was the greatest VP tasting they had ever attended. It was great to meet with so many of you that until then, I just knew from online personnas. There's nothing as memorable as experiencing the grand Port-centric theater that is The Crusting Pipe. A wonderful time to say the least. Yes, Sandeman had a tough time competing that afternoon, but did a very memorable performance that day. I wonder how Dow would have fared in its place?

[jdaw1]

I've had all of these more times than I can count

It's the hard-knock life. Fantastic though light envy is to be expected.

[Alex Bridgeman]

It was October 2005 when we had that fantastic diagonal tasting.

So should October 2010 see a repeat of that great theme? Perhaps with Dow replacing Sandeman? If there's a positive response in this thread then I will start up a thread in the Offlines forum.

[DRT]

So should October 2010 see a repeat of that great theme?

Oh, go on then if we must

Perhaps with Dow replacing Sandeman?

...or Quinta do Noval Nacional?

[jdaw1]

I wasn’t at that diagonal, so don’t know what’s being repeated, but I’m sure that it must be repeated.

[DRT]

I wasn’t at that diagonal, so don’t know what’s being repeated, but I’m sure that it must be repeated.

F, G, T & S: 1963, 1966 & 1970.

S faired badly in the company of the others so suggestion is to replace with D or NN next time.

[Roy Hersh]

Although Noval's Nacional would be fun to include, I think it would be even more educational and balanced to see how Dow would do in this particular mix of VPs. That way it could be billed as the "Best of SFE vs. the Best of TFP" from the top 3 vintages of that era. Now if we really wanted to expand this to include 1977 too ... I think that would be a ton of fun. I assume these would all be done blind, right? Just my two cents and I am happy to take part in whatever is finally decided +1 guest.

I would appreciate it if the plan would be to do the offline AFTER the Port Harvest Tour, as I could not come prior to the Tour due to the Fair. The dates of the tour are the 3rd of Oct. through Sun. the 10th. If need be, How about the following Saturday night?

[jdaw1]

F, G, T & S: 1963, 1966 & 1970.

That’s a rectangle, not a diagonal. Really.

Replacing S with D seems sensible.

[DRT]

F, G, T & S: 1963, 1966 & 1970.

That’s a rectangle, not a diagonal. Really.

I never said it was. It was AHB.

Replacing S with D seems sensible.

Since when did we start being sensible?

Now if we really wanted to expand this to include 1977 too ... I think that would be a ton of fun.

...and 1955?

[jdaw1]

...and 1955?

No. The fives very easily become lonely, so 1945 and 1985 too. (Can’t do 1935 as no Fonseca.)

[Glenn E.]

I would appreciate it if the plan would be to do the offline AFTER the Port Harvest Tour, as I could not come prior to the Tour due to the Fair. The dates of the tour are the 3rd of Oct. through Sun. the 10th. If need be, How about the following Saturday night?

I'd be interested in this as well, and this timing will probably also work for me. The idea, of course, being that I'll be on the Port Harvest Tour with Roy if I can make it all work out.

[g-man]

Would this possibly happen in the states?

I could sort out all of the fonsecas except the 63.

[jdaw1]

So should October 2010 see a repeat of that great theme? Perhaps with Dow replacing Sandeman? If there's a positive response in this thread then I will start up a thread in the Offlines forum.

AHB has started a slightly mis-named thread October 2010 - A Diagonal Repeated, to which comments about the repetition should be directed.

And a brief exchange between g-man and AHB merged, by jdaw1, into that same October 2010 - A Diagonal Repeated.

[SushiNorth]

I have not tried the Graham's from the 60's, however of the bottles that I have had I find them to be generally too sweet relative to Fonseca or Taylor. Or, in other words, the best Fonseca's that I have had (70 and 77, in that order, which i would place above bottles from the 60's), outshine the best Graham's that I have had. The best Taylor (63) I would place on par with the Fonseca 70, however I find I prefer the flavor profile in Fonseca and find Fonseca to be more reliable than Graham.

Graham, however, was consistently good during a time that Fonseca slumped (80/83), and I think we may see the 2000 Graham outdo both Fonseca and Taylor. In reflecting on my collection, actually, I was disappointed to see that I had a lot of breadth, and plenty of Taylor, Fonseca, Warre, and Smith Woodhouse, but not enough Croft or Graham. based on this post, though, i may flag the Graham 80's for holding long-term.