Unknown port

[AJMM]

I would welcome any help anyone could give me in identifying a bottle I recently acquired. If it helps, I believe the lettering underneath is C25G, 7, GBC

Regards

AJMM

[uncle tom]

Welcome! May we know your name, and where you're from? There are no secrets here..!

There's not a huge amount one can discern from these photos, except to observe that:

1) From the bottle shape, it is almost certainly port.

2) From the lack of a guarantee strip, it was probably bottled outside of Portugal.

3) Given the driven cork, it is probably vintage port; which was not bottled outside of Portugal after the 1970 vintage.

4) I have never been able to make much sense of the mould codes on the bottom of bottles, but can observe that the marks on bottles made before the 1960's are generally confined to one or two characters, or are non-existent.

5) Given the relatively pale glass, you may be able to trim back the foil, and with the help of a bright torch, read the branding on the cork.

- Cheers,

Tom

[Alex Bridgeman]

I tend to agree with Tom - this is a UK merchant bottled vintage port. I would guess that the merchant is a regional or relatively minor merchant as they have not put their firm name on the capsule. I have a theory that in the mid-late 60s, many regional merchants were finding in uneconomic to run their own bottling operations and were buying in the service from a specialist bottler (who was probably also a merchant in their own right) as I have seen a lot of these generic, decorative but bland capsule stamps.

The bottle also appears to be 3 part moulded, which would make it relatively recent.

My guess is that you have a bottle of vintage port, bottled by a contract bottler in the UK from a vintage in the range 1950 to 1963 - probably from the earlier part of that range.

Whether it is any good or not, will depend on the way in which it was stored. There appears to be little dust on the bottle, but what there is lies mostly on one side. This would lead me to believe that it has been stored on its side for part of its life, but does not appear to be have been stored in a cold, damp cellar as would have been ideal.

You might be able to find out what the port is from the cork, but often contract bottlers did not use branded corks so even that route may not be fruitful.

[g-man]

That and the color is starting to look tawnyish.

[uncle tom]

It may be a trick of the camera, but is this bottle without a punt?

I'd like to know the location and history of this bottle.

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

It does appear the bottom part of the cork has shrunk, indicating it has probably spent some time standing up and not lying on it side, thus drying out a bit and shrinking....but tough to tell from the picture.

I've had a few bottles of old Constantino VP's from the '20's that are in bottles without the traditional punt, for what reasons I don't know. But the necks were totally different from this picture so I highly doubt it was from this producer.

3) Given the driven cork, it is probably vintage port; which was not bottled outside of Portugal after the 1970 vintage.

But most mid-range and higher Port bottles back then used driven corks so that really only narrows it down to being in the mid-range and higher category. And that's a lot of Ports.

While I agree it's most likely a VP, It's really a tough call as things varied so widely prior to everything being bottled in Portugal. The old merchants seemed to use whatever they had on hand.

5) Given the relatively pale glass, you may be able to trim back the foil, and with the help of a bright torch, read the branding on the cork.

Totally agree, this is probably the only way (without pulling the cork out) of checking to see who the producer is or what vintage it is.

[uncle tom]

But most mid-range and higher Port bottles back then used driven corks so that really only narrows it down to being in the mid-range and higher category. And that's a lot of Ports.

Yes, but they were usually labelled, and were usually drunk in short order. Very few have survived, so this is *probably* vintage.

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

But most mid-range and higher Port bottles back then used driven corks so that really only narrows it down to being in the mid-range and higher category. And that's a lot of Ports.

Yes, but they were usually labelled, and were usually drunk in short order. Very few have survived, so this is *probably* vintage.

Tom

How do we know this didn't have a label (which almost all Ports did then) which as sense fallen off after being stored in a damp cellar. The fill is very good so one can assume it was stored in a very damp cellar. The poster doesn't say how or where he acquired it, so we all are grabbing at straws until we get some more info from him.

[Dom Symington]

Any chance of an image of the capsule form the side? If AJMM is prepared to do so, a simple solution will be to remove the lower part of the capsule and shine a bright light on to the neck and read the cork matkings.
The lettering on the base is the glass manufacturers code. I'll ask our bottling peole if it means anything to them.
The glass colour certainly indicates something quite old. UK bottlings in the '60's were already either in darket glass of brighter green although the capsule seems to be in remarkable condition with no apparant sign of corrosion .... interetsing!
Dom Symington

[uncle tom]

uncle tom wrote:
But most mid-range and higher Port bottles back then used driven corks so that really only narrows it down to being in the mid-range and higher category. And that's a lot of Ports.

Yes, but they were usually labelled, and were usually drunk in short order. Very few have survived, so this is *probably* vintage.

Tom
How do we know this didn't have a label (which almost all Ports did then) which as sense fallen off after being stored in a damp cellar. The fill is very good so one can assume it was stored in a very damp cellar. The poster doesn't say how or where he acquired it, so we all are grabbing at straws until we get some more info from him.

Andy,

When I post on forums that have an international audience, I try to avoid using terms that other nations might mis-interpret.

However, every nation on the planet seems to understand the difference between 'certain' and 'probable' - the absolute versus the highly likely..

Now, as an American policeman, I would hope that the difference between those two terms had been branded into your skull at cop school - the certainly guilty vs the probably guilty - but not yet proven, thereby requiring the gathering of evidence.

This bottle might contain anything from perfume to prussic acid; but it is most probable that it contains vintage port.

That, I think you know, is abundantly clear; - so why are you on the offensive?

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

Not at all on the offensive. I just prefer to keep my options open to many things and not narrow my focus to the one thing I hope it to be, which it may or may not be. And as I stated earlier in my very first post, I agree it is most likely a VP, but we don't know for sure and it very well could be something else entirely.

Check out the picture I've attached...all very old bottles of basic Ports (white and red) and almost all have driven corks.....

[Alex Bridgeman]

We've drifted away from the original enquiry a little, but until we get some more information or a response to some of our questions, there is little more help that we can offer.

So, instead, I'll follow the drift. I've been lucky enough to have had the time to browse in Garrafeira Nacional's shop in Lisbon for a couple of hours. There, they have big "dump bins" full of unopened port bottles that once had labels and now have nothing or perhaps some scant remants. From what I remember, all had driven corks. Luckily, however, a careful search of the shelves was able to find many of the "unknown" bottles' identical twins, matched either by capsule or label fragments. The owner of the shop knows his stuff; all the bottles were old (30-70 years) but none were vintage. Many of them could have been mistaken as such, given the fragments of label visible or judging from the shape of the bottle.

With this particular bottle we've all been discussing, I would give the probability of the contents being vintage a 70% chance. That's purely my gut feel and nothing more. I don't discount the possibility of it being something else (Croft 1933, perhaps?) but think that's less likely than a proper vintage port.

Hopefully, we will find out soon. But until then, all we can do is speculate.

[AJMM]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for your replies and apologies for my tardy response.

First things first, greetings to you all, my name is Andy Milner, I am new to the site. I have a small collection of VP's (around 120 bottles) and it is a pleasure to hear from like minded souls.

As for this particular bottle, I will do as you suggest and dig it out from the cellar photograph it from the side again and try to get some information from the cork.

As for its history, I can tell you little. It was bought incidentally at auction, the lot contained a bottle of 48 Taylors which is what I was chasing. As for other questions, the bottle does not have a punt, the colour does seem a tad on the tawny side but it was a very bright day.

A question of my own, Dom Symington, any relation of Paul? If so a good friend of mine Ed Chambers was lunching with Paul this week and was armed with the same questions about this bottle.

More this weekend.

[AJMM]

As suggested, I have peeled back and photographed and have managed to read the cork.

The bad news is that as the metal came off a small amount of seepage was revealed, the cork is not in great shape either, almost falling apart. Can anyone advise on a course of action to preserve the contents?

I have attached photographs and before I reveal the result of my endeavours I wondered if anyone would care to hazard a guess as to what it is?

Much of what has been said already was remarkably close to the mark if that helps.

Andy

[uncle tom]

Andy,

From the photo, I would guess this reads Quinta do Noval - can you take a photograph from another angle to try to reveal the date.

From the point of view of preservation, there are two options.

One is to wax the neck of the bottle - I have a wax pot that can be cooked up, but you'll have to bring the bottle down to me when you're next headed in this direction.

A second option is to re-cork the bottle; but if the cork is already failing, extracting the old cork can prove very difficult. Again, I have some useful technology..

However, my personal reaction to an old unknown bottle that had just started to leak would be to end it's days of mystery, and enjoy it with a few friends - friends who might just bring some old or mysterious bottles from their own cellars to share at the same time..

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

Looks like the cork says "189? Vintage." If so, the bottle doesn't seem to be that old, so possibly a colheita that was bottled at a later date. But again, difficult to tell for sure from the pictures.

The fact that it doesn't say "Vintage Port" doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a VP.

Is there a producer's name on the cork?

As for saving it, you could recork it yourself but not recommended unless you've had practice (as waxing wont really help a shirking/deteriorating cork problem). but if it's already been leaking recently as you said, and based on the shriveled cork, I'd recommend drinking it with friends who'd appreciate it sooner rather than later and hope for the best.

[uncle tom]

Looks like the cork says "189? Vintage." If so, the bottle doesn't seem to be that old, so possibly a colheita that was bottled at a later date. But again, difficult to tell for sure from the pictures.

Looks more like 1934 to me, but I'd like to see another photo.

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

Tom,
We posted at the same time...lol

Where do you see Quinta do Noval? It appears to be numbers on top and vintage on bottom with a dark band around all, as was common on a lot of corks then (and some now as well).

agree on seeing another photo , the numbers are hard to read.

[uncle tom]

It could say 'vintage' rather than 'uinta do' - except that the word vintage is not normally so bold on the brand.

More photos needed..

Tom

[AJMM]

Gentlemen,

As stated, I have managed to read the cork and although the foil is now gone I think the contents will survive a little while, perhaps to an offline, although not sure it warrants such an occasion.

I was merely letting you take a stab at a year and a producer. Both are legible. The only word legible from photographs is "Vintage".

From the photographs and comments already made, particularly from AHB and his tasting notes from a previous bottle (I did a little reading), I just thought it may be fun to have a go at identification.

Andy

[uncle tom]

Looking at it again, I realise there's no space for the word Noval before running off the end of the cork, so this must be a rather bold rendition of the word 'vintage', with the shippers name above the date.

Tom

[uncle tom]

Andy,

If you do decide to drink this bottle, carefully push the cork into the bottle instead of drawing it out - the blunt end of a chopstick works fine for this purpose.

After decanting (using the other end of your chopstick to stop the cork blocking the neck) you can wrap the bottle in newspaper before breaking it with a hammer to liberate the cork in one piece.

If you still can't read it, I can try bleaching it for you to raise the contrast between the cork and the branding.

perhaps to an offline, although not sure it warrants such an occasion

- A very appropriate and welcome contribution, IMO..

Tom

[AJMM]

Perhaps I wasn't clear,

I have managed to read both the producer and the year, I was wondering if anyone would like to test their skills of indentification.

If only for giggles and bragging rights!

Or am I being cruel?

[g-man]

I'd guess it was a Grahams, kopke or an Offley since I've seen they brand their cork with Date first followed by the world vintage sideways.

Fonseca, Cockburns, crofts and taylors I've seen all have vintage first followed by date for the older bottles though the newer ones have it flipped.

But since there's this weird straight line at the lip of the bottle after what appears to be a 5.
so i'm guessing it could be one of the 3 houses I've named above from the 54 vintage.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Go on then, put us out of our misery and reveal all - what is the wine?

[angeleyes]

Andy,
After decanting (using the other end of your chopstick to stop the cork blocking the neck) you can wrap the bottle in newspaper before breaking it with a hammer to liberate the cork in one piece.

With practice, the plastic bag method of cork removal works, as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y82j3R7tXw

[uncle tom]

With practice, the plastic bag method of cork removal works, as seen here:

But not so good with very old fragile corks, which can be reduced to crumbs in the process..

Tom

[DRT]

With practice, the plastic bag method of cork removal works, as seen here:

But not so good with very old fragile corks, which can be reduced to crumbs in the process..

I've pulled a few old corks this way and from memory only one has broken in half. The cork in this bottle looks to be in very good nick and is a prime candidate for bagging

[AJMM]

Ok then gents, as nobody wants to play the game, the bottle is (somewhat disappointingly) a Cockburn 1950

I have re-sealed it with wax as a short term measure, with a view to a speedy decanting.

Thanks for all the help and advice on this, most useful

Andy

[Alex Bridgeman]

Andy,

Thanks for the fun - even though no-one was willing to hazard a guess as to what the port was. I know I enjoyed speculating about what it could be. Nor do I feel too embarrassed by what I suggested the port might be.

If ever you happen to be around when one of the offlines are being organised, please feel free to put your hand up and volunteer to join us. Or, if ever you are at a loose end and fancy some port-drinking company then please feel free to suggest a time and date for others from the forum to join you!

Alex

[Andy Velebil]

It was fun to speculate on what it may have been. Thanks and I hope you enjoy the bottle.