Volume of vintage port sold in the UK?

[Alex Bridgeman]

Does anyone know - or could point me in the right direction to find out - what the rough annual sales are of vintage port in the UK?

Thanks

Alex

[DRT]

I don't think I have ever seen any statistics on this. The IVDP publish tables of volumes of sales by country but they categories those as "Standard Ports" and "Premium Ports" so VP is not separately identifiable.

[JacobH]

The IVDP's statistics are at http://www.ivdp.pt/pt/docs/Porto/Quadro%2013.pdf (pdf, taken from their Statistics Section) which suggests 21,000 12-bottle cases in the UK in 2009 and an extraordinary 136,000 cases of LBV, which looks like about 50% of all that is produced.

Of course, that is presumably Port exported from Portugal. I imagine that there aren't any figures for secondary sales.

[DRT]

Good find Jacob. But the % figures are all messed up in that table

[Glenn E.]

No, they're fine. It's your perspective that's off.

The percentages are of the country's total purchases (horizontal total), not of the category's total purchases (vertical total). Only the far right column (Total) is a percentage of the vertical total.

[Alex Bridgeman]

21,000 cases of vintage port in a year is quite a lot! Certainly more than I was guessing.

Still, we at TPF probably account for about 1% of UK vintage port sales!

[DRT]

No, they're fine. It's your perspective that's off.

The percentages are of the country's total purchases (horizontal total), not of the category's total purchases (vertical total). Only the far right column (Total) is a percentage of the vertical total.

Ah! So if I tilt my head to one side the numbers will add up?

21,000 cases of vintage port in a year is quite a lot! Certainly more than I was guessing.

Still, we at TPF probably account for about 1% of UK vintage port sales!

Are you factoring in that most of what we buy is in the secondary market? In any given year I don't think the members of this forum will account for 210 x 12 bottles of newly released VP, unless someone is buying lots that they are not telling us about.

But I think you and I have bought roughly 136,000 cases of Croft 2004 LBV from Tesco in the past 12 months

[JacobH]

There a few surprising things about the statistics: i) the Canadians seem to drinks vast amounts of tawny: 52,000 cases which is not much shy of the 58,000 cases that the Americans drink; ii) the Danes drink huge amounts of colheitas (nearly a third of all sold); iii) the American market is really quite small considering its population (199,000 cases between 300,000,000 people as opposed to 141,000 cases between 35,000,000 Canadians).

The Far East is also notably absent considering all the discussion of it...

[uncle tom]

The table is also available in English BTW..

http://www.ivdp.pt/en/docs/Porto/Table%2012.xls

- and this one is much more interesting IMO:

http://www.ivdp.pt/en/docs/Porto/Table%2014.xls

Note that the prices are in euros and per litre; so despite a vintage declaration, the average price of VP exported to the UK in 2009 was only about £10.60/btl

- we really need to get those middle-men out of the system!

Tom

[g-man]

No, they're fine. It's your perspective that's off.

The percentages are of the country's total purchases (horizontal total), not of the category's total purchases (vertical total). Only the far right column (Total) is a percentage of the vertical total.

Ah! So if I tilt my head to one side the numbers will add up?

21,000 cases of vintage port in a year is quite a lot! Certainly more than I was guessing.

Still, we at TPF probably account for about 1% of UK vintage port sales!

Are you factoring in that most of what we buy is in the secondary market? In any given year I don't think the members of this forum will account for 210 x 12 bottles of newly released VP, unless someone is buying lots that they are not telling us about.

But I think you and I have bought roughly 136,000 cases of Croft 2004 LBV from Tesco in the past 12 months

really?

I mean I wait for the bargains, but a given declared vintage, I'll end up with at least 5 cases.
Only bought a case of the 07s tho, but will look to pick up more as the prices be a little more reasonable.

80$ for a newly release vp is ridic.

[DRT]

really?

I mean I wait for the bargains, but a given declared vintage, I'll end up with at least 5 cases.

At 3 declarations per decade that's 1.5 cases per year. And I think you are very much at the high end of what people here buy of new VP, but I think I am right in saying that you are younger than lots of us so probably have more chance of living long enough to drink it

[Andy Velebil]

- and this one is much more interesting IMO:

http://www.ivdp.pt/en/docs/Porto/Table%2014.xls

Note that the prices are in euros and per litre; so despite a vintage declaration, the average price of VP exported to the UK in 2009 was only about £10.60/btl

- we really need to get those middle-men out of the system!

Tom

Tom,
Agreed, that second one is very interesting....and you think you've got middle men, you ain't seen nothing like the States

Taking just a quick glance (so someone correct me if I'm wrong).......What is very interesting is their is a good amount of price differences for VP exported to different countries, but the export prices of LBV's are relatively similar (with some small differences). So if they can sell LBV's to different countries at such close prices, why can't they do the same for VP as well?


Oh and does France import VP?
And check out the price range for Colheita's....don't try and buy any in Japan

[DRT]

I think we need a clarification of what that table is saying. If it is the "price" of port sold then something is very wrong. If it is the wholesale price in a non-declared vintage year I am not in any way surprised. Cost of stock v retail price in lots of industries is 1:2.

[g-man]

really?

I mean I wait for the bargains, but a given declared vintage, I'll end up with at least 5 cases.

At 3 declarations per decade that's 1.5 cases per year. And I think you are very much at the high end of what people here buy of new VP, but I think I am right in saying that you are younger than lots of us so probably have more chance of living long enough to drink it

haha i definitely need to get out to london on a biz trip again.

[JacobH]

but I think I am right in saying that you are younger than lots of us so probably have more chance of living long enough to drink it

You've got this all wrong; the real reason he buys so much is that, being American, he has to drink it before its third anniversary when it will be over-the-hill and not fit for human consumption

[uncle tom]

Cost of stock v retail price in lots of industries is 1:2

In my industry, which is a bit specialised; it is roughly 1:6, but designer clothing - which is huge - also trades on similar numbers.

When cheap wine gets sold by the truckload to Tesco, the margins are very modest, but as you travel up the quality ladder, profit expectations seem to rise exponentially..

The problem with the wine trade is that the rivalry between producers leads to inflated claims as to how much a winemaker can command for his product.

Most will sell only a small proportion of their stock for the headline price, and then enter into negotiations to move the remainder. Those negotiations are invariably secretive, and it is only when we get data such as that published by the IVDP that the truth emerges.

I think it may be possible to secure good port at good prices, and I am exploring an avenue in that regard at the moment. However, I don't think it would be at all easy to close a deal if the minutiae of the negotiations were published on an open forum such as this.

There is more than a little logic behind establishing a port society; that ships and openly offers to both members and the public (via a web shop) a range of interesting products at mainstream list prices.

There might be a condition of membership that made it verboten for any member to publicly discuss or disclose any discounts they might enjoy...

Tom

[g-man]

but I think I am right in saying that you are younger than lots of us so probably have more chance of living long enough to drink it

You've got this all wrong; the real reason he buys so much is that, being American, he has to drink it before its third anniversary when it will be over-the-hill and not fit for human consumption

if the glue on the label has dried, the cork surely isn't too far behind!

[Alex Bridgeman]

Are you factoring in that most of what we buy is in the secondary market? In any given year I don't think the members of this forum will account for 210 x 12 bottles of newly released VP, unless someone is buying lots that they are not telling us about.

That was my first thought, as well. But then I thought about what we've done this year - not all vintage port exported to the UK is the newly declared vintage. This year we have bought some 2007 and 2008 wines, but we have also bought shed-loads of 1977 from the Symingtons, Malvedos wines after our Malvedos vertical, Croft and Delaforce wines when TFP cleared some stocks from VNdG plus various wines direct from smaller producers. All of these wines are exports from Portugal and so will be reported as 2010 vintage port sales to the IVDP. And what we bought will be a measurable percentage of the UK volume.

Plus we also buy heavily in the secondary markets and so help to support the prices of port when the initial purchasers are looking to reduce their holdings.

[DRT]

Are you factoring in that most of what we buy is in the secondary market? In any given year I don't think the members of this forum will account for 210 x 12 bottles of newly released VP, unless someone is buying lots that they are not telling us about.

That was my first thought, as well. But then I thought about what we've done this year - not all vintage port exported to the UK is the newly declared vintage. This year we have bought some 2007 and 2008 wines, but we have also bought shed-loads of 1977 from the Symingtons, Malvedos wines after our Malvedos vertical, Croft and Delaforce wines when TFP cleared some stocks from VNdG plus various wines direct from smaller producers. All of these wines are exports from Portugal and so will be reported as 2010 vintage port sales to the IVDP. And what we bought will be a measurable percentage of the UK volume.

Plus we also buy heavily in the secondary markets and so help to support the prices of port when the initial purchasers are looking to reduce their holdings.

I forgot about all of those

[g-man]

Plus we also buy heavily in the secondary markets and so help to support the prices of port when the initial purchasers are looking to reduce their holdings.

I forgot about all of those

I'd have to admit I buy more now in the secondary market.

last vintage I bought in the store was the 03 Fonseca which was a whopping 49$ a bottle

[jdaw1]

Interesting thread. The top dozen TPFers are 1% of UK VP! We each buy as much as fifty thousand average Brits. Rephrased, we regularly have around one table the VP consumption of Glasgow (the fourth-most populous UK city).

[uncle tom]

Rephrased, we regularly have around one table the VP consumption of Glasgow

Only when Derek's there..