Could a mid-range Garrafeira Port exist?

[JacobH]

One style of Port which particularly appeals to me is an aged tawny which has been matured in its bottle. Apart from Niepoort, which I think is the only house that designs its tawny Port to mature in the bottle, most examples of this wine take the form of ‟oddities”: normal tawnies (e.g. 10- or 20- year old Fonsecas or Taylors) which get forgotten about for 10 or 20 years. If everything goes to plan, they soften, the fruit integrates with tawny-like sugar and they turn into something quite attractive. Of course, because they are oddities, you may find they have been damaged, and getting hold of them is difficult.

What I have been wondering about recently is whether the garrafeira style could be used make similar wines from scratch and not just the one-in-a-generation blockbusters that Niepoort makes at the moment?

The regulations for garrafeira read as follows:

4 O vinho do Porto com direito ao uso da indicação da data de colheita e que posteriormente ao estágio em madeira é acondicionado em recipiente de vidro durante um período mínimo de oito anos, após o qual será engarrafado, pode usar a menção «Garrafeira».

(Essentially, a colheita which, following maturation in wood, is matured in glass containers for eight years, may be sold as a garrafeira.)

It seems to me that it would be quite possible within the regulations for someone to take a young colheita (say at 8 to 10 years old), then bottle mature (perhaps in imperial-sized bottles) it for another 8 to 10 years, before raking it off its sediment and rebottling it as a young garrafeira. The resulting product would not be as complex as Niepoort’s current garrafeiras but might be a good way of producing a wine which shows those qualities of a bottle-matured tawny in a more planned way. I would imagine the resulting product would be economically marketable at the same cost as a 20-year-old tawny, making it a nice mid-range type of Port.

Does this make sense? Would this work? I suppose I should see if I could get a case of young colheita and an empty imperial to try!

[DRT]

I think the difficulty you would have with this is that commercially available Colheitas ar.e filtered/fined or, at least, decanted or racked off their sediment. Garrafeira is unfiltered when it is placed in the demijohns and therefore continues to develop until bottled. Putting "normal" colheita into a bigger bottle just isn't the same thing.

[Glenn E.]

most examples of this wine take the form of ‟oddities”: normal tawnies (e.g. 10- or 20- year old Fonsecas or Taylors) which get forgotten about for 10 or 20 years.

I have had many bottle-aged Colheitas in just a few years of drinking Port. Off the top of my head, I've also had one bottle-aged Niepoort 30-yr old, one bottle-aged Gould Campbell Fine Tawny Porto, and one bottle-aged Calem 40-yr old. All three of those had at least 20 years of bottle age... the GC may have had as much as 35.

With the exception of the Niepoort 30-yr, the bottle-aged Colheitas fare far better than the bottle-aged tawnies. The Niepoort was on par with the Colheitas.

If your reading of the regulations is correct, then I think your idea would work. However since they'd be starting from scratch, we could just as easily do our own experiment by laying down Colheitas. There might even be someone here who has done that entirely by accident because he likes Colheitas better than VP and has been stocking up on the ones from 1964 which happen to be his birth year and VP from that year is very hard to find.

[JacobH]

With the exception of the Niepoort 30-yr, the bottle-aged Colheitas fare far better than the bottle-aged tawnies. The Niepoort was on par with the Colheitas.

Oddly, I’ve had the opposite experience; the bottle-aged colheitas I’ve tried have mostly been quite tired which I put down to them being more advanced in development when they were bottled. However, perhaps it is due to the inherent unreliability of these sorts of test.

If your reading of the regulations is correct, then I think your idea would work. However since they'd be starting from scratch, we could just as easily do our own experiment by laying down Colheitas. There might even be someone here who has done that entirely by accident because he likes Colheitas better than VP and has been stocking up on the ones from 1964 which happen to be his birth year and VP from that year is very hard to find.

I was wondering whether maturation in a larger container might make the process a little more gentle on the Port than maturation in 75cl bottles. I’ve also earmarked some tawny Port for bottle maturation for exactly this purpose!

I think the difficulty you would have with this is that commercially available Colheitas ar.e filtered/fined or, at least, decanted or racked off their sediment. Garrafeira is unfiltered when it is placed in the demijohns and therefore continues to develop until bottled. Putting "normal" colheita into a bigger bottle just isn't the same thing.

Ah, yes, I hadn’t thought of that. The raking is probably not a problem since tawny Port gets raked several times during its life, but I would need to find unfiltered tawnies. Niepoort would be one (expensive!) option, but I wonder which others might work. I will have to have a look around!

[Andy Velebil]

Why do you guys care? You guys don't drink wood aged Ports anyways. Do you even know what a "Colheita" is

Apart from Niepoort, which I think is the only house that designs its tawny Port to mature in the bottle,

Niepoort is far from the only house that states their Colheita's (notice I didn't say "tawny's" as here correct term usage is important) will get better even after being bottled. In my conversations and other threads it runs a pretty evenly divided line between producers saying theirs will improve or won't after bottling.

It seems to me that it would be quite possible within the regulations for someone to take a young colheita (say at 8 to 10 years old), then bottle mature (perhaps in imperial-sized bottles) it for another 8 to 10 years, before raking it off its sediment and rebottling it as a young garrafeira.

Don't take offense by this next statement as it's not intended to do so, but none of us would probably ever be able to tell the difference between an aged Garrafeira and a Colheita in a blind taste test. Let alone the difference between a young Colheita and a young Garrafeira. So from a business standpoint, what is the point of a producer spending more time, money, and resources to produce a young Garrafeira when there would be no appreciable differences between them?

With the exception of the Niepoort 30-yr, the bottle-aged Colheitas fare far better than the bottle-aged tawnies.

Glenn is correct. Most bottle aged tawny's with an indication of age don't hold up as well over the long term compared to Colheita's (remember that 30 year old Fonseca tawny at the FG tasting last week....a perfect example).

I think the difficulty you would have with this is that commercially available Colheitas ar.e filtered/fined or, at least, decanted or racked off their sediment. Garrafeira is unfiltered when it is placed in the demijohns and therefore continues to develop until bottled. Putting "normal" colheita into a bigger bottle just isn't the same thing.

A slight bit of correction from what Dirk has told me. Garrafeira's are racked off the barrel, leaving the lees (sediment) behind, then put into Demi-johns. The racking off process doesn't filter anything, it simply transfers the contents of the barrel into the smaller glass Demi-johns. The barrels (lees) are not shaken up prior to this as the point is a defacto initial "filtering" off the barrel, leaving the lees behind. As they age for several decades in Demi-johns they will continue to deposit a sediment as any wine that has not been fined or filtered would do. They are then again "decanted" (racked) off the lees in the Demi-john's when bottled for sale. Colheita's are also racked off their lees prior to being bottled, the same as a Garrafeira. The amount, or lack there of, of fining or filtering prior to bottling varies by producer.

[DRT]

The barrels (lees) are not shaken up prior to this as the point is a defacto initial "filtering" off the barrel, leaving the lees behind.

Corretion. They are "decanted", not "filtered", at this stage.

[uncle tom]

There is no doubt in my mind that recently bottled tawnies and colheitas have a raw 'green' edge to them that softens with bottle age, and that they almost always improve significantly over time.

How much time is the difficult call. We only get to try tawnies and colheitas with extended bottle age after they turn up at auction, and how they have been looked after over the years is anyone's guess. Unlike VP, where most people know to lay the bottles down in appropriate conditions, an old tawny bottle is more likely to have languished at the back of someone's kitchen cupboard.

I have a strong suspicion that the degree of filtration afforded at the time of original bottling also affects the aging ability (filtration proper, that is, as opposed to decanting off past sediment)

As a rule of thumb, my own experiance suggests that about twenty years in glass provides all the benefits of bottle age, with little risk of the wine showing signs of decline. That said, I have enjoyed some bottles filled over forty years ago that are still in very good order.

I think Jacob's idea is essentially a good one, although a long lead time is inevitable! Six litre bottles are probably the largest size that can be secured at reasonable cost, and could be filled directly from the cask, before being stashed away for a decade or two. Allowing for a little wastage, eight such bottles could then be drained to fill five cases of Garrafeira.

Now, should those six litre bottles be stored upright, or on their side??

Tom

[mosesbotbol]

I could see a couple of smaller boutique brands producing a Garrafeira just for notoriety and novelty. The internet has made the world a lot smaller and touting a Garrafiera is worth its effort for the adulation fans would give it. That being said, this takes a lot of time and some space.

As Andy stated, it’s difficult to tell a Garrafeira from a Colheita blind. I have been lucky enough to have had 4-5 different Niepoort Garrafeiras and enjoyed them all.

I bet a producer could pre-sell the demijohns to justify the cost and bottle for the customer when ready.

[uncle tom]

I bet a producer could pre-sell the demijohns to justify the cost and bottle for the customer when ready.

That's a novel idea!

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

The barrels (lees) are not shaken up prior to this as the point is a defacto initial "filtering" off the barrel, leaving the lees behind.

Corretion. They are "decanted", not "filtered", at this stage.

hence the term "'defacto initial "filtering"' because when you rack a wine you're doing so to remove sediment and that meets the definition of filtering.

[Glenn E.]

As Andy stated, it’s difficult to tell a Garrafeira from a Colheita blind.

I think you're both crazy!

Granted, I have only had one Garrafeira, but to me it was nothing like a Colheita. (More specifically, a Colheita with some age. To me those 8-yr old Colheitas aren't really Colheitas - they're barely even tawny! Real Colheitas start at 20 years old.) In fact had I not known it was a Garrafeira, I would have guessed that it was a second tier Vintage Port. It was a 1950 Niepoort in case you're wondering.

If that 1950 Niepoort was representative, then I seriously doubt you could slip a Garrafeira past me in a lineup of tawnies.

[JacobH]

hence the term "'defacto initial "filtering"' because when you rack a wine you're doing so to remove sediment and that meets the definition of filtering.

At risk of sounding pedantic, I would have thought a filter is pretty essential to any filtration, de facto or not

That's a novel idea!

I think Kilchoman, a newish distillery on Islay, did that to help raise capital to cover the maturation period of their first Scotch, but then the lead-time for that was only 3 or 4 years, rather than at least 8.

It seems to me that it would be quite possible within the regulations for someone to take a young colheita (say at 8 to 10 years old), then bottle mature (perhaps in imperial-sized bottles) it for another 8 to 10 years, before raking it off its sediment and rebottling it as a young garrafeira.

Don't take offense by this next statement as it's not intended to do so, but none of us would probably ever be able to tell the difference between an aged Garrafeira and a Colheita in a blind taste test. Let alone the difference between a young Colheita and a young Garrafeira. So from a business standpoint, what is the point of a producer spending more time, money, and resources to produce a young Garrafeira when there would be no appreciable differences between them?

I, for one, am willing to submit to blind tasting a number of garrafeiras against a number of tawnies; just let me know the date!

However, what I was thinking, was whether the garrafeira classification could be used to market bottle- and wood-matured Port which currently is not sold. Not so much in the style of Niepoort where the resultant product is a very rare high-quality wine but where a youngish tawny Port is matured in glass for say 10 years, just enough to take the ‟edge” off its flavours. I think it possible to tell the difference between this and other Ports but at the moment, you simply can’t buy such Ports and if there is a market for, say 10-year-old whites, I can’t see why they can’t be a market for them...

[uncle tom]

Don't take offense by this next statement as it's not intended to do so, but none of us would probably ever be able to tell the difference between an aged Garrafeira and a Colheita in a blind taste test. Let alone the difference between a young Colheita and a young Garrafeira. So from a business standpoint, what is the point of a producer spending more time, money, and resources to produce a young Garrafeira when there would be no appreciable differences between them?

Less than a moon ago, whilst dining with Dirk; I was treated to an extraordinary wine, both in taste and appearance; notable for it's incredibly green meniscus. I was stumped as to its identity; but knew it was something very special.

What to guess? - I reasoned that it was very old, very good, a tawny, and something with characteristics that were beyond my experience.

Having never drunk a Garrafeira before, and taking note of the company; I hazarded a 1931 Niepoort Garrafeira..

..wrong, - of course!

- But before revealing all, Dirk did explain that a Garrafeira would have been altogether lighter in style, and distinguishable by that attribute.

The bottle was actually a blend of tawnies from the first three generations of his family, including pre-phylloxera wine; and the last bottle of a small stash he had previously spotted and bought on the open market some years ago.

A great treat, and a privilege to enjoy.

Tom

[JacobH]

Why do you guys care? You guys don't drink wood aged Ports anyways. Do you even know what a "Colheita" is

For the record, it is hotter today in London than Pinhão. If there is a better excuse to drink tawny Port, I don’t know what it is...(But thankfully we still have the right temperature for most of the year to drink real Ports unlike those of you on the West Coast! !)

[uncle tom]

I've just chewed a few numbers on the notion of individuals buying stocks of Colheita to be aged into Garrafeiras, and think it might be viable, if a friendly producer was happy to play.

The minimum buy in would probably need to be 24 litres as 4 x 6L bottles, which with wastage and a contribution to the IVDP approval bottles would ultimately translate into 5 cases of 6 x 75cL bottles (22.5L).

An initial fee might pay for the wine, eight years aging, and eventual bottling; after which the owner could be given the option of either bottling and taking delivery; or paying an additional fee for a further eight years aging.

The fly in the ointment would be the need to have a fairly cumbersome contract drawn up. Realistically, a producer would probably want to be bottling a couple of pipes (c.1200 litres, 200 x 6L) to make the project worthwhile.

- Could fifty people be found to buy into this?

Tom

[DRT]

Could fifty people be found to buy into this?

No, I don't think so. Why would 50 people want to tie themselves and their cash into receiving 5 cases of Port in 7 or 8 years from now that is of unknown quality from a restricted lot that the producer has little or no control over in terms of finding a good quality blend?

Is it not better to just buy what is already out there rather than trying to create some sort of exclusive wine for the minimal amount of cash?

Wind this back 8 years. A group of people approach a producers and say "here is a lump of cash for those two Pipes, please bottle them in 8 years time". The producer takes the cash and produces the bottles as ordered. Is that wine likely to be better than the wine blended from the other 400 Pipes in the producers cellar?

[uncle tom]

Why would 50 people want to tie themselves and their cash into receiving 5 cases of Port in 7 or 8 years from now that is of unknown quality from a restricted lot that the producer has little or no control over in terms of finding a good quality blend?

You might be right, but there's nowt so strange as folk..

..look at the wines people 'invest' in en masse that have a minimal prospect of returning the original outlay if sold..

There's an army of wine lovers who like to buy into something a bit special and a bit personal - something they can feel involved with..

Financially, it has a good prospect of offering a sound QPR, provided the project does not become dependant on fat fees to smooth talking intermediaries - both the whisky and champagne industries have fallen victim to 'pump 'n' dump' marketing scams over the last couple of decades.

Provided it can be kept local, the price is right, and there are enough takers; it could be a fun exercise.

Tom

[JacobH]

I think I might be with DRT on this one; the sort of scheme Tom envisages would, I think, only work if the resultant product was at the top-of-the-range rather than in the middle. That said, I do note that for generations Port buyers have essentially done the same thing with Vintage Port by buying on release on the hope that the blender managed to produce something that will be rather good in 20 years time!

Perhaps, though, some of the small independent quintas which do not have much stocks of reserves could generate some capital by selling futures in tawny Ports which they are just starting to mature?

[DRT]

I think I might be with DRT on this one; the sort of scheme Tom envisages would, I think, only work if the resultant product was at the top-of-the-range rather than in the middle. That said, I do note that for generations Port buyers have essentially done the same thing with Vintage Port by buying on release on the hope that the blender managed to produce something that will be rather good in 20 years time!

The difference being that the majority of producers, and certainly all of those we here think of as being the best, will have put their best juice in the VP we are taking a punt on = it is normally a fairly safe bet.

How many producers would put their best juice into two experimental pipes for 7 years and then big bottles for another 8 years to sell to a small band of nutters? Not quite the same odds!

[uncle tom]

How many producers would put their best juice into two experimental pipes for 7 years and then big bottles for another 8 years to sell to a small band of nutters? Not quite the same odds!

I wasn't thinking of being quite that trusting!

The colheita stock to be bottled would need to be of superior quality, and drawn from existing bulk stocks. The stock would need to be sampled and approved at the outset.

The market for vintage port only consumes a small fraction of the quality wine made - there's a lot of good juice going into wood..

Tom