Date of wine list? Please estimate.

[jdaw1]

DRT and I have photographed an undated wine list, and need to estimate its date. Given that the only non-Port vintage wines were as follows, please estimate its date, giving reasoning.







It might be that this question would receive better answers on another wine bulletin board. If you are a member of such a BB, please do repost it, sending a link to DRT and jdaw1, or posting it in this thread.

[Andy Velebil]

I would assume that the list was probably from around 1923-27'ish time frame. Given that top tier vintage champagne is usually released around 6-10 years after harvest that would put it early to mid 1920's as the most probable time frame.

[DRT]

Andy,

I know you are a member of a few dry wine forums - could you please post this question (or a link to this thread if allowed) on some of those?

Thanks
Derek

[Alex Bridgeman]

Heidsieck Monopole tend to release their dry Champagne quite soon after the vintage. However, Ayala tend to hold them in their cellars for longer before release. I would have guessed late 1910s to 1920 - say 1917-1920.

Are there no other clues?

[jdaw1]

Interesting: thank you.

Also interesting that neither of you used the Hocks, which, for my estimate, was the main source.

[benread]

Heidsieck Monopole tend to release their dry Champagne quite soon after the vintage. However, Ayala tend to hold them in their cellars for longer before release. I would have guessed late 1910s to 1920 - say 1917-1920.

Are there no other clues?

I have no specific view on this other than to wonder if champagne made during the 1st world war would / could have made it to the UK before 1919 or so? I am not exactly sure when France was liberated though.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Interesting: thank you.

Also interesting that neither of you used the Hocks, which, for my estimate, was the main source.

In my case, this is because I know nothing about Hock or the gap between vintage and release.

[JacobH]

I also know hardly anything about Hock, except that you usually can now get hold of German wines quite soon after release. A little searching suggests either 1st May or 1st September in the year after harvest is now required by the VDP, for example.

[jdaw1]

I would assume that the list was probably from around 1923-27'ish time frame.

Given that the only non-Port vintage wines were as follows

So the youngest vintage wine on the list was six years old?

[g-man]

Entirely possible not knowing the name of the restaurant.

I've seen some wine menus back in the olden days and rarely did a restaurant hold a huge stock of wine unless they were specially specialized in such.

Also, typically restaurants will list their older bottles first followed by younger ones.

However in this particular instance I differ on the date and because of the depth of champanges, I'd say this was probably a restaurant specializing in wines. De Venoge, Ayala and Lemoine are small negotiants or growers and even today not often found.

I think this could possibly be a list from the 1950s - 1960s

As reference.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/15/dinin ... d=2&src=pm

this is the list from 1945 from 21 club has for example a 1904 margaux for 17.5$.

I can't find it, but I've also seen a list from edit: Antoine's restaurant (in new orleans) circa 1920s and I can tell you the 1900 clarets and champagnes were in the range of 3-9$. (dollars not pounds)

Wine didn't even really take a large jump in price until the past 2-3 decades.

Assuming Hock is the British term utilized for german wine, I can only assume that the prices below are in pounds.

Sterling to dollar conversion int he 50s were ~3x which would put these bottles around 45$ in the 1950s. Steep for a recent release, but entirely reasonable fora 30-40 year old bottle.
If this were the 1920s, where the conversion was 5 to 1, that would mean yer paying well over 100$ for a recent release champagne. I seriously doubt there'd be enough drinkers to maintain such extravagance back in the day to sustain a list like that esp after the first great war.

So my guestimate is that this particular list must be either mid 50s or early 60s.

[DRT]

g-man,

These prices are in shillings and pence. The most expensive wines are 17/6 (17 shillings and 6 pence), which is £0.875 per bottle. I think that makes a significant difference to your theory

Derek

[jdaw1]

My reckoning was that budget Hock, not even from a specific vineyard, would be drunk before three years. At a pinch, and not necessarily a nice pinch, five years.

[JacobH]

My reckoning was that budget Hock, not even from a specific vineyard, would be drunk before three years. At a pinch, and not necessarily a nice pinch, five years.

Have you tried asking a specialist? There are some German Wine Enthusiasts who might be able to help, albeit if not on a public forum.

[g-man]

g-man,

These prices are in shillings and pence. The most expensive wines are 17/6 (17 shillings and 6 pence), which is £0.875 per bottle. I think that makes a significant difference to your theory

Derek

O!

okay I agree with previous assessments that this was probably a list from 1918-1925

[g-man]

My reckoning was that budget Hock, not even from a specific vineyard, would be drunk before three years. At a pinch, and not necessarily a nice pinch, five years.

http://www.wineanorak.com/BBR1909pricelist.pdf

from Jaime Good's blog

a scan of BBR's offering list from 1909

[jdaw1]

Good idea. The Niersteiner is NV; but there is a vineyardless Steinberger 1893, so sixteen years old. Interesting. The youngest two (not oldest) are 1904, so five years old. Interesting.

[DRT]

I own a number of old wine lists. Below is some information gleaned from a few of them that might help with this:

Evans & Marshall (1892)

>> Youngest Vintage Claret 1890 at between £6 to £18 per hogshead.

>> Niersteiner (undated) 1/6 per bottle Duty Paid. (6/- on JDAW's list)

Fergusons of Reading (1922) (not an apostrophe crime by me)

>> Charles Heidsieck Extra Dry 1914 at 13/- per bottle (15/- on JDAW's list)

>> Youngest Champagne 1914

>> Nierstien Hock (undated) at 5/- per bottle (6/- on JDAW's list)

Ellis & Co. (1951)

>> Heidsieck, Dry Monopole 1945 at 30/- per bottle

>> Youngest Champagne 1945

>> Niersteiner Domthal (undated) at 12/6 per bottle

Stowells of Chelsea (1969)

>> Charles Heidsieck Extra Dry 1962 at 46/3 per bottle

>> Youngest Champagne 1962

>> Niersteiner (various 1963 to 1966) at 16/6 to 21/11 per bottle


It seems that there is consistency over eight decades that the youngest vintage champagne on a wine list tends to be 7 or 8 years old, suggesting a date of 1922/23 for JDAW's list.