Olympics discussion thread

[RAYC]

Watch the last 500m (from 5hrs 54mins 50secs) of the Olympic road race here here

Uran close to the hoardings as he enters the Mall.

Drifts to centre of road going into last 300m, taking a good look at Vino over his right shoulder.

Followed by an exaggerated look over his left shoulder with full body turn (why...to check on chasing group...?), then drifts back to hoardings, seemingly with total disinterest on what is going on around him.

Finally Uran "wakes up" and starts a futile sprint to the line, Vino long gone...

[DRT]

In the time it took for these guys to reach the finish line I visited my parents in Edinburgh and drove home to Chesterfield (250 miles) in time to watch the last 25 minutes of the race. By the time the finish line was in sight I was not at my most alert. At one point I even agreed to have a coffee instead of a beer!

Perhaps the riders were also suffering a lack of clarity of thought from our exhausting day?

[RAYC]

Obviously it is easy to say all of this from my armchair, but it just looked unreal to me - that pause and look-around was beneath a 4th cat racer in a small village race.

The kindest interpretation i can see is that they agreed the outcome before (or at the start of) their winning break @ 7-8k from the finish - there was of course no guarantee that it would be successful and both needed to work together at their limits to make it stick, so removing the distraction of who would win by coming to a gentleman's agreement is understandable and may just have been good tactics.

(see the footage from 5hrs, 45mins and 17 secs - "next corner - I go left, you go right, we work together, if it we stay away you can take the gold but let's put on a show...")

[DRT]

What puzzles me is why no one went with them. There must have been some good classy sprinters in that pack but three or four seconds after the two broke away they were all looking at each over and not chasing after them.

I was also very confused about the Bronze medal. The BBC commentator was talking about the guys at the front of the pelaton racing for 3rd place, but there had already been 20+ riders over the line! Am I missing something or was the commentator just being dim?

[RAYC]

What puzzles me is why no one went with them. There must have been some good classy sprinters in that pack but three or four seconds after the two broke away they were all looking at each over and not chasing after them.

there was a bit of a sprint to try to keep contact with them early on, but it was a good break that was timed well.

once they had a bit of clean air, no one else wants to be the chump who spends all their energy reeling them back (since the benefit will only go to someone else). I think it would have needed a very quick decision by an "elder statesman" type to organise a chase where everyone rotated at the front, but it would have been tough call - everyone is suspicious of each other at that point, and as you say an organised chase would only benefit better sprinters like Phinney, whereas there was still a bronze at stake for anyone else who could engineer an escape from further out.

Arguably the big fail there was from the Spanish, who had three guys in the break - you'd have thought they would be able to police it a bit better to ensure that at least one of them was still in with a shout at the end.

[RAYC]

I was also very confused about the Bronze medal. The BBC commentator was talking about the guys at the front of the pelaton racing for 3rd place, but there had already been 20+ riders over the line! Am I missing something or was the commentator just being dim?

You're right - he was talking about the sprint for 4th, but was obviously confusing himself! He admits his mistake later in the commentary (5hr, 58min, 20 sec).

[DRT]

Arguably the big fail there was from the Spanish, who had three guys in the break

Or perhaps the "big fail" was from Team GB who let 20 riders, including some excellent finishers, get away from them while they stayed in the pack. I can't help thinking that was a bit of arrogance that bit them in the arse.

[RAYC]

Arguably the big fail there was from the Spanish, who had three guys in the break

Or perhaps the "big fail" was from Team GB who let 20 riders, including some excellent finishers, get away from them while they stayed in the pack. I can't help thinking that was a bit of arrogance that bit them in the arse.

Tough call - they'd been on the front chasing the initial breakaway for the best part of 150km already by then - hard to respond to a break after that (so arguably a flawed plan from a start) and they might have gone into the red chasing that break down only to see another group try immediately after - their only option was really to keep steady and let it go, and rely on their own speed and some help from others to bring it back on the flat run-in.

But if they were guilty of misjudgement, so were an awful lot of others in the main group who were relying on them and also caught out - best hopes of the Germans and Australians were their sprinters (Greipel, Goss) so i think it would genuinely have been a surprise to GB team that they were so disinterested in maximising their own medal chances (after all, silver and bronze are still worthwhile, and Greipel has had the beating of Cav a couple of times in TdF so gold not out of question). Plus some of the other biggest pre-race favourites (Sagan, Boonen) also let the break go (when they were clearly strong enough to join) so were guilty of the same misjudgement.

[DRT]

Never mind shenanigans at the cycling - there is a new scandal emerging at the Olympics this evening!

Whilst the men's gymnastic team have been off winning a well-earned bronze medal a travesty of justice is occurring on the other side of town. If I am not mistaken it is currently the height of summer. The evening air is warm and there is no rain. Why? Why, oh why!? Have we committed some sort of crime? Have we not earned our place in history as the hosts of the most spectacular games the world has ever known? Unfortunately, it seems not. As difficult as it might be to accept we must hold our heads in shame and admit that GB is the first country in the world where Beach Volleyball is being played by women in long trousers and non-bikini tops. Oh the shame of it!

[DRT]

Arguably the big fail there was from the Spanish, who had three guys in the break

Or perhaps the "big fail" was from Team GB who let 20 riders, including some excellent finishers, get away from them while they stayed in the pack. I can't help thinking that was a bit of arrogance that bit them in the arse.

Tough call - they'd been on the front chasing the initial breakaway for the best part of 150km already by then - hard to respond to a break after that (so arguably a flawed plan from a start) and they might have gone into the red chasing that break down only to see another group try immediately after - their only option was really to keep steady and let it go, and rely on their own speed and some help from others to bring it back on the flat run-in.

But if they were guilty of misjudgement, so were an awful lot of others in the main group who were relying on them and also caught out - best hopes of the Germans and Australians were their sprinters (Greipel, Goss) so i think it would genuinely have been a surprise to GB team that they were so disinterested in maximising their own medal chances (after all, silver and bronze are still worthwhile, and Greipel has had the beating of Cav a couple of times in TdF so gold not out of question). Plus some of the other biggest pre-race favourites (Sagan, Boonen) also let the break go (when they were clearly strong enough to join) so were guilty of the same misjudgement.

I defer to your knowledge of the sport. It seems that honour and glory are due to those who took the brave decision to break away rather than criticism of those who followed their instinct.

[DRT]

I might be jumping the gun here, but the last three days suggest that this might be the Olympics where a country stood up and delivered the greatest event in history, but its athletes forgot to turn up!

[Alex Bridgeman]

I might be jumping the gun here, but the last three days suggest that this might be the Olympics where a country stood up and delivered the greatest event in history, but its athletes forgot to turn up!

That's not fair - we are the clear leader of the losers (loser = country who has won medals of a poor quality). We have twice the number of medals of any other loser nation.

I was at the rowing today (and back again tomorrow). Team GB are performing well and have crew progressing steadily through to next rounds and A finals.

[RAYC]

I might be jumping the gun here, but the last three days suggest that this might be the Olympics where a country stood up and delivered the greatest event in history, but its athletes forgot to turn up!

I think you are jumping the gun - as the Germans were about their own performance over the weekend (The Bild headline on Monday morning - "even the Kazakhs are laughing at us").

Plenty to come, and as Boris says: "I think we are showing great natural restraint and politeness as host nation in not hoarding the medals more so far"

[RAYC]

An interesting piece on the rather remarkable 16 yr old Chinese swimmer who has been setting tongues wagging, and whose performance caused an experienced US coach to put his head above the parapet.

Difficult to see how this debate will go away, however much the Chinese (and Lord Monyihan) protest. Pointing to the fact that she has passed the doping controls after the final will, as history demonstrates, unfortunately not be enough to settle the argument (indeed, the stipulation that blood samples will be kept for at least 8 years is an overt admission of this)

[DRT]

Never mind shenanigans at the cycling - there is a new scandal emerging at the Olympics this evening!

Whilst the men's gymnastic team have been off winning a well-earned bronze medal a travesty of justice is occurring on the other side of town. If I am not mistaken it is currently the height of summer. The evening air is warm and there is no rain. Why? Why, oh why!? Have we committed some sort of crime? Have we not earned our place in history as the hosts of the most spectacular games the world has ever known? Unfortunately, it seems not. As difficult as it might be to accept we must hold our heads in shame and admit that GB is the first country in the world where Beach Volleyball is being played by women in long trousers and non-bikini tops. Oh the shame of it!

I am reliably informed that this tragedy continued today

[RAYC]

Two great last-second controversies so far in the Olympics:

1. Spain denied a (possible?) last-second equaliser in the waterpolo qualifiers. The rather telling moment comes where the Spanish coach is gesturing to the big screen TV, the crowd starts to chant in support, and the referee looks like a rabbit trapped in headlights...

2. A teary South Korean denied a certain Olympic silver by a frozen clock and dubious appeals process. As far as i can tell, there has been much mis-reporting both of the reasons for the Sth Korean appeal (for a slightly clearer account, see here) and the fencer's "sit-in" protest (in fact, were she to have left the piste, she would have apparently conceded the match: her "sit-in" was a requirement of the appeal process and it must have been a rather lonely hour).

Still, nothing yet to beat the famous controversy over the basketball final's last 3 seconds in Munich!

[mpij]

What about the badminton? I would throw them all out!

[RAYC]

What about the badminton? I would throw them all out!

I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol directed at the players and not at whoever came up with such a shoddy tournament format (first time use at London).

An interesting interview with Gail Emms this morning on BBC - apparently since the round robin format was first announced 7 or 8 months ago, there have been repeated warnings of this type of outcome which have been ignored on every occasion.

I can't be alone in thinking that it should be incumbent on the tournament organisers to design a format that removes this type of perverse incentive - i find it difficult to blame players who simply want to maximise medal chances for themselves and their country.

Plus compare with other sports - this type of thing happens all the time in tournament football when qualification is assured but teams want to avoid a good seed from another group. Likewise, plenty of heats in running / swimming / rowing where qualification is assured and individuals/teams do not try their hardest, do not race to the line, and are not too concerned by position - not exactly the same but certainly analogous. And if we're on to the "Olympic Ideals" debate, what about road cycling, where there is a long history of cyclists representing a country but doing little to conceal that they are really just riding to help out the leader of the professional team that pays their wages year-round?

[RAYC]

'Badminton, in the Olympics and in all tournaments across the circuit, it's never played in a group stage, it's always a straight knockout system and for some reason they decided that the Olympic Games in 2012 should be this group stages.

'And as soon as heard that I went 'it's going to bring up match fixing', that was my first thought, and lo and behold last night that is exactly what happened.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympi ... z22HpGeoqU

[RAYC]

What about the badminton? I would throw them all out!

You have your wish!

Personally i think it is a shame - they are the victims of a flawed tournament format and a cheap target for the media (including some experienced sportsmen and women who i'd have thought would take a more understanding view) - the heads that should roll are in the organising body. But perhaps i am the only one to think this!

[RAYC]

Worth highlighting, by the by, the much-lauded tactics of some of our own British gold medallists in 1948:

Burnell, ever calculating, decided early upon an audacious but highly risky route to a gold medal, where the British double would deliberately lose their heat against the French to avoid meeting Denmark, their main rivals, in the semi-final. The ensuing repechage provided an extra race to reach competitive sharpness and smoothed their progress to a final where, sure enough, they encountered the Danes.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I was at the rowing today (and back again tomorrow). Team GB are performing well and have crew progressing steadily through to next rounds and A finals.

[Looks smug icon]

It was a brilliant day to be at Eton Dorney - what a crowd and atmosphere!

[DRT]

I got up at 4am this morning to take a taxi to Gatwick, a flight to Edinburgh, a 9 hour meeting, a taxi to the airport, flight to Gatwick, train to Victoria and taxi to my hotel and turned the TV on at 22:00. Did I miss anything?

{I-picked-the-wrong-day-to-miss-the-Olympics-icon}

[Alex Bridgeman]

At least you were back in time to see a great Beach Volleyball game between Australia and Czech Republic.

And - since you are rather at a loose end in London these evenings - have you actually been to watch any Olympic events in person? I understand that tickets for most beach volleyball sessions are available from the "gate" (ie. the box-office before the security screening).

[DRT]

I understand that tickets for most beach volleyball sessions are available from the "gate" (ie. the box-office before the security screening).

Does the restraining order taken out by the Brazilian team mean I need to wear a disguise?

[RAYC]

Given the furore about badminton players, i did have a chuckle about this

"lost in translation"....pull the other one! (perhaps WS1 might want to comment!!)

FWIW, i think the quality of journalism and lack of proper analysis/insight is really disappointing. No mention of the actual rules regarding the Team Sprint, which are as follows:

Race Procedure

3.2.155 First competition round and finals:

In the event of a mishap the race shall be stopped and restarted. If the team suffers a further mishap during its subsequent ride, it shall be relegated.

In each round, including the final, only one new start per team shall be permitted as a result of mishaps.

What is a "mishap"?

Recognised mishap
3.2.021 The following shall be considered recognised mishaps:

• a fall

• a puncture

• the breakage of an essential part of the bicycle.

So it would be interesting to know whether a deliberate fall of this type falls within the rules (or whether it is an accepted part of the sport that happens regularly), particularly bearing in mind the following:

Conduct of riders

3.2.002 Riders shall refrain from any collusion, manoeuvre or movement likely to hinder the conduct or distort the result of the race.

[Glenn E.]

It seems to me that a deliberate fall is legal within the rules, though 3.2.002 is probably intended to prevent such tactics. It does not, however, because of the mishap rule - a deliberate fall does not hinder the conduct or distort the result of the race because falls (whether deliberate or not) are accounted for by the mishap rule.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[DRT]

Rob,

Can you please explain this?

My initial thought was that the rule is exactly the same (and for the same rationale) as the handover "box" in an athletics relay race. But this for of cycling is different in that the second leg is performed by someone who has also completed the first leg. There doesn't seem to be any advantage gained in an early handover as it means the second leg is slightly longer. I can see how a late handover would give an advantage to the second rider, but not an early one.

Am I missing the point?

[RAYC]

hmmm...i think it is just a rule that has to be obeyed.

Does it serve a purpose? Don't know. Possibly it means that you have to have a genuinely strong "team" and can't rely on one really fast person to carry you - "you're only as strong as your weakest link" type of thing.

And while it is one of those rules that has apparently been overlooked / not strictly enforced in many competitions over the last few years, there was supposedly a brief that went out to all teams last year that it would be enforced at the Olympics and there were DQs at the test event/last year's championships because of it.

The GB changeover was clearly in contravention of the rule - still haven't seen the proper finish-line pic of the Chinese DQ from the final for the same reason but it looked a lot more of a close-run thing - from the TV pictures at least it was a pity in my opinion that they weren't given the benefit of the doubt (don't really like to see the realistic bronze medallists winning gold on a technical infraction measured in millimetres - especially when they are the Germans!)

[DRT]

What a day.

The rowing team were superb.

Jess Ennis has been absolutely outstanding - Daley Thompson eat your heart out! (and she is much better looking than Mary Peters!)

[DRT]

Mo Farahtastic!!!

[Andy Velebil]

Rob,

Can you please explain this?

My initial thought was that the rule is exactly the same (and for the same rationale) as the handover "box" in an athletics relay race. But this for of cycling is different in that the second leg is performed by someone who has also completed the first leg. There doesn't seem to be any advantage gained in an early handover as it means the second leg is slightly longer. I can see how a late handover would give an advantage to the second rider, but not an early one.

Am I missing the point?

Yes, because if the rider of the first leg gets tired too early they could simply let the stronger rider pull through earlier and carry on to the finish. By forcing them to exchange only in a designated area both riders have to complete their full leg, regardless of how tired they may be. In other words, the first rider gets tired and losses steam causing an overall loss of time for both riders.

Track racing has some unique rules as compared to road racing.

[DRT]

Rob,

Can you please explain this?

My initial thought was that the rule is exactly the same (and for the same rationale) as the handover "box" in an athletics relay race. But this for of cycling is different in that the second leg is performed by someone who has also completed the first leg. There doesn't seem to be any advantage gained in an early handover as it means the second leg is slightly longer. I can see how a late handover would give an advantage to the second rider, but not an early one.

Am I missing the point?

Yes, because if the rider of the first leg gets tired too early they could simply let the stronger rider pull through earlier and carry on to the finish. By forcing them to exchange only in a designated area both riders have to complete their full leg, regardless of how tired they may be. In other words, the first rider gets tired and losses steam causing an overall loss of time for both riders.

Track racing has some unique rules as compared to road racing.

That makes sense. But must be very frustrating for the better rider

[Andy Velebil]

That makes sense. But must be very frustrating for the better rider

Which is why you must pick your partner very wisely.

[DRT]

That makes sense. But must be very frustrating for the better rider

Which is why you must pick your partner very wisely.

I knew there was a reason why Victoria Pendelton should have picked me!

[Andy Velebil]

keep dreaming

[mpij]

Great show from Andy Murray in mens singles, hopefully can do it again with some help from Laura Robson.

[RAYC]

"I have only had 6 to 7 months of training with two years before that on the lash" - Ross Murray, GB 1500m contender, honest interview, unsurprisingly however he did not make the final.

[RAYC]

This is just getting silly, as well as being inconsistent (see, for instance, the French track sprinter who was entered into the 250km road race (in order to inrease the number of riders available for their track squad) and dropped out after less than 3km).

It will be interesting to see whether Fostermann, the German track sprinter whose enormous thighs have been doing the twit-pic rounds on the internet, will be forced to complete the mountain bike race he is signed up for in order to benefit from the same "back door" entry into the track events!

[JacobH]

One thing that interests me about the Olympics is the unique opportunity to watch some minority sports played at the highest level. Unfortunately, many of them are really disappointing. For example, in Judo, the only throws that seem to be used are the simplest and the umpires seem to break the fight every time the competitors end up on the floor, completely negating skill in ground-work. No doubt it’s the most effective way of winning, but it makes it pretty dull to watch.

I was also surprised about how boring handball is; the matches seem to consist of alternating set-pieces without very much interaction.

The fencing is rather fun, however, especially the épée and sabre. I’m yet to be convinced that all the flicking that goes on in modern foil is really in keeping with the spirit of that event, but it makes an interesting spectacle.