I feel the cheaper the better to start because of the pre set medium toast that comes with the barrel.JacobH wrote:Would it not be better to start with an unfiltered Port? Something like a Noval or Croft unfiltered LBV?
Sorry JacobJacobH wrote:hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)
Two liters is not much. To make it worth the time and hassle, I'd want 20 liters as a minimum and work it like a solera. Not sure which port I'd use. Maybe a mix of tawny and ruby?JacobH wrote:hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)
Somebody is going to have to explain to me what the attraction is of maturing port in your own barrel. I don't understand (but in no way criticise those who want to) why I might want to fill a small barrel with mediocre port that I will have to drink before I move on to my bottle matured LBVs that have 20+ years of bottle agemosesbotbol wrote:Two liters is not much. To make it worth the time and hassle, I'd want 20 liters as a minimum and work it like a solera. Not sure which port I'd use. Maybe a mix of tawny and ruby?JacobH wrote:hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)
why would you fill it with mediocre port to age?AHB wrote:Somebody is going to have to explain to me what the attraction is of maturing port in your own barrel. I don't understand (but in no way criticise those who want to) why I might want to fill a small barrel with mediocre port that I will have to drink before I move on to my bottle matured LBVs that have 20+ years of bottle agemosesbotbol wrote:Two liters is not much. To make it worth the time and hassle, I'd want 20 liters as a minimum and work it like a solera. Not sure which port I'd use. Maybe a mix of tawny and ruby?JacobH wrote:hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)
Can someone please clue me in?
Just curious as to how long the barrel has sat empty? And how many years had it been used to store wine previously?ac-fast wrote:Hi again
The barrel has already been used for Marsala.
So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel
should have told
and if you bleached it and rinsed with hot water so no bacteria/mold/yeast/unneccessary friends grow in it.Andy Velebil wrote:Just curious as to how long the barrel has sat empty? And how many years had it been used to store wine previously?ac-fast wrote:Hi again
The barrel has already been used for Marsala.
So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel
should have told
I will be very happy to co-operate with anyone who would like to provide a demonstration of the fun that variety can bring.JacobH wrote:That said I don't agree with AHB. Doing a small bit of home-maturation sounds like fun. We could spend all our time drinking Niepoort LBVs, Graham VPs and other top-level Ports but, for me, it's always interesting to throw in something a bit different.
My questions are serious ones as most people think you can just buy a barrel and toss some wine in it and all will be ok. If the barrel has sat empty long enough it starts to dry out and may not seal (meaning you'll have to repair it or you may end up with a leaky mess). If it's too new you'll get a lot of wood notes (smoke, wood tannin, vanilla, etc) that will transfer from the barrel into the flavors of the wine inside. The other thing to consider is depending on the type of Port and how long it stays in barrel, you will at some point most likely need to rack it off the lees and clean out the barrel. Just some very important things to consider since he's asking for advice.g-man wrote:and if you bleached it and rinsed with hot water so no bacteria/mold/yeast/unneccessary friends grow in it.Andy Velebil wrote:Just curious as to how long the barrel has sat empty? And how many years had it been used to store wine previously?ac-fast wrote:Hi again
The barrel has already been used for Marsala.
So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel
should have told
no need to be testy, my response was serious. Bleaching ensures that you kill any living them in it. The hot water treatment afterwards ensures that the barrel is rehydrated along with washing out all the bleach one doesn't want to drink. Both are pretty standard treatment in a winery.Andy Velebil wrote:My questions are serious ones as most people think you can just buy a barrel and toss some wine in it and all will be ok. If the barrel has sat empty long enough it starts to dry out and may not seal (meaning you'll have to repair it or you may end up with a leaky mess). If it's too new you'll get a lot of wood notes (smoke, wood tannin, vanilla, etc) that will transfer from the barrel into the flavors of the wine inside. The other thing to consider is depending on the type of Port and how long it stays in barrel, you will at some point most likely need to rack it off the lees and clean out the barrel. Just some very important things to consider since he's asking for advice.g-man wrote:and if you bleached it and rinsed with hot water so no bacteria/mold/yeast/unneccessary friends grow in it.Andy Velebil wrote:Just curious as to how long the barrel has sat empty? And how many years had it been used to store wine previously?ac-fast wrote:Hi again
The barrel has already been used for Marsala.
So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel
should have told
Otherwise I think it would be fun to try something like this. And as others pointed out, I'd start with a cheaper Port as a trial run to make sure all works out as intended/hoped for.
for sediment?JacobH wrote:Isn’t raking quite common for most tawny Ports? Not regularly but I thought it happened at least every decade or so.
Depending on the type of Port it can be racked several times a year or as little as once a year or longer. That would depend on how old it is, etc. Obviously the older it is the less lees will be dropped. So the older the wine is in barrel the less often you have to do it. But unless it is heavily filtered and cold stabilized it will continue to drop sediment (lees) in the barrel. At some point you have to clean the barrel to remove the old lees or you end up with some serious off flavors and other issues.g-man wrote:for sediment?JacobH wrote:Isn’t raking quite common for most tawny Ports? Not regularly but I thought it happened at least every decade or so.
if you utilized a commerciacl bottle it's already been racked for you.
only reason i can see you racking yourself is if you don't like that black sediment that would settle at the bottom of the sideways barrel ..
Also, I'd want to keep my barrel airtight and when aging my rubys i'm expecting them to have little or no contact wiht air
Andy Velebil wrote:Depending on the type of Port it can be racked several times a year or as little as once a year or longer. That would depend on how old it is, etc. Obviously the older it is the less lees will be dropped. So the older the wine is in barrel the less often you have to do it. But unless it is heavily filtered and cold stabilized it will continue to drop sediment (lees) in the barrel. At some point you have to clean the barrel to remove the old lees or you end up with some serious off flavors and other issues.g-man wrote:for sediment?JacobH wrote:Isn’t raking quite common for most tawny Ports? Not regularly but I thought it happened at least every decade or so.
if you utilized a commerciacl bottle it's already been racked for you.
only reason i can see you racking yourself is if you don't like that black sediment that would settle at the bottom of the sideways barrel ..
Also, I'd want to keep my barrel airtight and when aging my rubys i'm expecting them to have little or no contact wiht air
And as we all know, even an older filtered Tawny will still drop some sediment if left in bottle long enough. Now compound that by larger volume, and possibly a younger unfiltered/lightly filtered/filtered Port, and you can build up lees rather quickly (again depending on what was put in the barrel).
As for cleaning, I would NEVER use bleach. That is what was used many years ago and has since been proven as a leading cause of TCA in wineries. It's also why wineries no longer use bleach to clean a winery. There are many other things you can use such as Citric Acid in a water solution.
Most people mean sodium hypochlorite when they say bleach. And while sodium hypochlorite is just one of many kinds of bleach, it is by far the most commonly used.g-man wrote:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate is a bleach and one that I use to sterilize my brewing gear. There's not even a chlorine compound available that would form TCA?
Comparing beer brewing to making wine is like comparing apples to oranges in most aspects.g-man wrote:
what is your term of lees? my definition is dead yeast like when i brew my beer. commercial port will have no lees at all when bottled that when i transfer them to an empty barrel there should be no lees at all.
2,4,6-trichloroanisole is caused by fungi. Why would bleach cause TCA?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate is a bleach and one that I use to sterilize my brewing gear. There's not even a chlorine compound available that would form TCA?
I would NEVER use a chlorine based compound in anything that I would consume!
Sodium percarbonate has a benefit in that in water it breaks down to soda ash and water and oxygen.
I first started working/helping out on a winery when I was 15. So I have some first hand knowledge of what goes on inside a winery. I've also had very detailed discussions with Port producers about this exact topic (lees in Port barrel) as it's been of interest to me for some time.g-man wrote:Andy is this from hear say or do you have a source for this information?
And how is beer making and wine making different?
you take a sugared solution, add yeast, ferment then drink.
I know for a fact that many burgundy and champagne producers will bottle on lees. They almost all refer to them as yeast.
Also not many people do any direct or secondary fermentation directly in a storage barrel. They typically have a separate fermentation tank or a barrel dedicated for fermentation. If you're doing it at home, you'd most likely have a carboy or in my case, a bunch of 4 gallon sized glass jars to which I transfer the final product (racking) into the barrel. The storage barrel is sanitized and the final product is devoid of any sort of yeast/live culture. The only sediment I would expect then in my barrel is the natural sediment that comes with age when port ages.
http://winemakermag.com/stories/article ... -equipment
was #2 on google when searching cleaning a winery with bleach
and basically every link from the google search basically says never use household bleach or sodium hypochlorite.
To which I offered that sodium percarbonate is a perfectly acceptable bleach to use and one I do use.
Andy Velebil wrote:I first started working/helping out on a winery when I was 15. So I have some first hand knowledge of what goes on inside a winery. I've also had very detailed discussions with Port producers about this exact topic (lees in Port barrel) as it's been of interest to me for some time.g-man wrote:Andy is this from hear say or do you have a source for this information?
And how is beer making and wine making different?
you take a sugared solution, add yeast, ferment then drink.
I know for a fact that many burgundy and champagne producers will bottle on lees. They almost all refer to them as yeast.
Also not many people do any direct or secondary fermentation directly in a storage barrel. They typically have a separate fermentation tank or a barrel dedicated for fermentation. If you're doing it at home, you'd most likely have a carboy or in my case, a bunch of 4 gallon sized glass jars to which I transfer the final product (racking) into the barrel. The storage barrel is sanitized and the final product is devoid of any sort of yeast/live culture. The only sediment I would expect then in my barrel is the natural sediment that comes with age when port ages.
http://winemakermag.com/stories/article ... -equipment
was #2 on google when searching cleaning a winery with bleach
and basically every link from the google search basically says never use household bleach or sodium hypochlorite.
To which I offered that sodium percarbonate is a perfectly acceptable bleach to use and one I do use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lees_%28fermentation%29 I think this sums up lees the best.
Again, as I've mentioned before I'm using the term generally. Like anything there are exceptions to everything in wine making. But keep in mind we're not talking about a bottled product. We are talking about leaving a wine, in this case Port, in a barrel where a build up of lees will eventually start causing an issue if the barrel is not cleaned from time to time.
You're trying to compare beer sitting in a vat for a short amount of time to a fortified wine sitting in a wood barrel for extended time. Let me try asking this another way, would you brew a batch of beer in a tank, drain it off, then stick more freshly brewed beer into the same container without first cleaning out the container from the previous contents? No, you would not. You would clean it out first so as not to contaminate the second batch.
I've never heard of a wine maker using sodium percarbonate on a wood barrel, stainless steel equipment yes. Not that someone may use it, but I don't recall running across one that does.
