1997 Niepoort

g-man · Post by **g-man** » 15:20 Fri 21 Sep 2012

So now I have to ask,

what's the deal with the leaking corks

6x closed case comes in and 2 of the bottles are leaking terribly.

griff · Post by **griff** » 18:20 Fri 21 Sep 2012

g-man wrote:So now I have to ask,

what's the deal with the leaking corks

6x closed case comes in and 2 of the bottles are leaking terribly.

They buggered the 750mL bottling I think. My bottles have ranged from advanced to oxidised. You may be more fortunate. Anecdotally the halves are sound. Don't know if magnums were bottled.

marc j. · Post by **marc j.** » 00:39 Sat 22 Sep 2012

The magums I have seem to be holding up quite well - no signs of seepage. The 750's are a completely different story...

RAYC · Post by **RAYC** » 05:26 Sat 22 Sep 2012

FWIW i've also experienced a non-leaker that was absolutely riddled with VA.

Comments here suggest the problem also exists in magnums and halves

In fact, though i've often heard that the problem only extended to part of the bottling line, in four attempts i have only had one bottle of this that i would say was non spoiled, so i've given up on his port (on the basis that if hit rate is so bad, i may as well buy Noval 97! Or Graham 63 etc.!)

Post by **DRT** » 07:26 Sat 22 Sep 2012

g-man wrote:So now I have to ask,

what's the deal with the leaking corks

6x closed case comes in and 2 of the bottles are leaking terribly.

From memory, the problem was that the bottles were packed and laid down immediately after the corks went in rather than the common practice of letting them stand for a while to allow the corks to re-expand and form a good seal. I have read elsewhere that Niepoort have acknowledged this problem and are prepared to swap cases of the 97 which show signs of leakage for cases of the current vintage.

RAYC · Post by **RAYC** » 09:00 Sat 22 Sep 2012

DRT wrote:
g-man wrote:So now I have to ask,

what's the deal with the leaking corks

6x closed case comes in and 2 of the bottles are leaking terribly.
From memory, the problem was that the bottles were packed and laid down immediately after the corks went in rather than the common practice of letting them stand for a while to allow the corks to re-expand and form a good seal. I have read elsewhere that Niepoort have acknowledged this problem and are prepared to swap cases of the 97 which show signs of leakage for cases of the current vintage.

That was mentioned in the previous thread i linked - does that account for the VA problem though? (which seems to affect a lot of Niepoort vps between 1985 and 1997).

For some reason, i had thought that the replacement offer applied only to en primeur / direct sales from distributors.

RonnieRoots · Post by **RonnieRoots** » 09:21 Sat 22 Sep 2012

g-man wrote:So now I have to ask,

what's the deal with the leaking corks

6x closed case comes in and 2 of the bottles are leaking terribly.

Sorry if this comes across as being blunt, but: why did you buy these? You can't say you haven't been warned! In numerous threads both here and on FTLOP there has been mention of problems with this port, either leaking or spoiled by VA. I've experienced it myself a couple of times with bottles others opened for me and decided never to buy this port myself, no matter how high the WS rating may be.

Post by **DRT** » 09:46 Sat 22 Sep 2012

RAYC wrote:That was mentioned in the previous thread i linked - does that account for the VA problem though? (which seems to affect a lot of Niepoort vps between 1985 and 1997).

For some reason, i had thought that the replacement offer applied only to en primeur / direct sales from distributors.

No, it doesn't explain the VA problem at all. I wasn't aware of the limitations on the replacement offer.

RonnieRoots wrote:Sorry if this comes across as being blunt, but: why did you buy these? You can't say you haven't been warned!

+1

g-man · Post by **g-man** » 14:02 Sat 22 Sep 2012

RonnieRoots wrote:
g-man wrote:So now I have to ask,

what's the deal with the leaking corks

6x closed case comes in and 2 of the bottles are leaking terribly.
Sorry if this comes across as being blunt, but: why did you buy these? You can't say you haven't been warned! In numerous threads both here and on FTLOP there has been mention of problems with this port, either leaking or spoiled by VA. I've experienced it myself a couple of times with bottles others opened for me and decided never to buy this port myself, no matter how high the WS rating may be.

i must admit that I recalled the 94 vintage and got it mixed up wtihte 97

Post by **DRT** » 15:20 Sat 22 Sep 2012

g-man wrote:i must admit that I recalled the 94 vintage and got it mixed up wtihte 97

Did you purchase the case from a retailer? If so, have you tried sending it back?

g-man · Post by **g-man** » 22:06 Sat 22 Sep 2012

DRT wrote:
g-man wrote:i must admit that I recalled the 94 vintage and got it mixed up wtihte 97
Did you purchase the case from a retailer? If so, have you tried sending it back?

auction house but the description said perfect bottles so i do have recourse as these are terribly leaky

guess the consignor cleaned off teh bottles before sending them in.

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 19:15 Sun 23 Sep 2012

For what it's worth, the Fortnum & Mason BoB 1997 vintage port was the regular Niepoort vintage blend, but was labelled and corked on a different bottling run. I have a handful of these and none of the bottles show signs of leaking.

Post by **DRT** » 19:21 Sun 23 Sep 2012

AHB wrote:For what it's worth, the Fortnum & Mason BoB 1997 vintage port was the regular Niepoort vintage blend, but was labelled and corked on a different bottling run. I have a handful of these and none of the bottles show signs of leaking.

But do they smell of nail varnish?

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 19:24 Sun 23 Sep 2012

It's a slightly odd one this, because the root cause is believed to be a rogue, alcohol tolerant microbe that first appeared at Pinhao in about 1983, and did much damage to the 1985 vintage.

Niepoort thought they had fully sanitised their systems (as did other producers) but it came back to bite them again in 1994, and badly in 1997.

What is strange is that most of the other bottlings that suffered from VA as a consequence have no problems with seepage (or at least, there is not a significantly greater incidence of seepage from bad bottles than there is from good)

The Niepoort '97s, on the other hand, have near universal signs of slight seepage on the 750mL bottling.

In the last few days I re-corked another three of these from my cellar, and none of the bottles smelt noticeably 'off'. The original corks are slightly longer than usual for VP, and look more like claret corks; but they have a very high incidence of minor imperfections.

This, coupled to Niepoort's use of ventilated capsules; may explain the slight seepage seen.

Post by **DRT** » 19:31 Sun 23 Sep 2012

uncle tom wrote:Niepoort thought they had fully sanitised their systems (as did other producers) but it came back to bite them again in 1994, and badly in 1997.

I don't find that strange at all. One of the problems is caused by a poor seal and the other by a biological process. Why would they be connected unless that biological process was causing increased pressure inside the bottle, which I don't think it does?

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 19:46 Sun 23 Sep 2012

Dirk has said the leaking issue came when the bottles from one bottling run were laid down as they came off the corking line. This can be an issue as the cork may not have proper time to re-expand and seal properly. Also why some bottles have the issue and others don't.

The VA issue is completely seperate issue. Dirk has been very upfront, both in person and on wine boards where he's directly posted about the issue.

Here are his exact words from 2008...

dear all,

thank you for the kind words about me as a person.
but the issue is not me but niepoort and in this case the vintage 1997.
i have answered dave and assume that he will give you my answer.
on thing for sure.
OFF COURSE I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT ANY PROBLEM WHEN THIS WINE WAS BOTTLED
i have heard (not only now but already a few years ago) about some problems with bottles having va. i have experienced it twice myself.
but by coincidence i was served a bottle of vintage 1997 niepoort just 3 days ago and found that the wine was good (it didn t show great ...it is closed and ininteresting and not really expressiv....but so did the fonseca which i had two days ago. it did not show any signs of being a outrageously fantastic wine at this stage. but funny stages of the vintage ports are well know to all of you).
i have been trying to find out about this problem. this problem started with us with the vintage 1985. but than again it depends on the bottle...i ve had fantastic bottles of our 1985.... and it is a problem that seems to be related to a malolactic bacteria which seems to survive at hight alcool when the ph of the wine is high and the sulphur low.but then again: why some bottles and others not?????

since we don t understand the problem we haven t done anything about it. but as with any leaking bottles we will be happy to replace any bottles as you have in your cellars.
i don t usually chat on boards so please don t expect me to be online all the time (in case you ask a question and don t get any answer from me).

it is important to talk about the problem and if someone knows more than me please let me know
my email: dirk@niepoort-sa.pt

thanks for all your comments
dirk
__________________
Dirk van der Niepoort

This being the aforementioned email.

Dear dave,

I m sorry to hear that you had a problem with our vintage 1997. it is
not
the first time I hear of that problem and infact had one bottle tasted
abroad a few month ago that was volatile. But had a bottle 3 days ago
that
was fine (closed and uninteresting at this stage but with no volatiliy
and
no problems whatsoever).
This seems to be a recent problem that we don’t know anything about.
We will
and have opened bottles recently to find out more about it.
In any case it is off course true that we blend the wine (so that it is
uniform in the bottle) before bottling. Having said that it is strange
that
some bottles are good and other not. So I have no idea for sure what is
going on.

In any case , we are most happy to exchange if you have bottles with
leacher
or any other problem bottles.

Thank you for your comments and warning us about the problem

Regards
dirk

g-man · Post by **g-man** » 02:16 Mon 24 Sep 2012

appreciate all the info guys

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 08:23 Mon 24 Sep 2012

unless that biological process was causing increased pressure inside the bottle

Which I think it must be doing. The corks I pulled recently were not super tight, but tighter than one normally finds in a sound bottle twice that age.

You may also recall the occasion when I first re-corked some Ni97's and you witnessed one bottle in my kitchen erupting its contents like a bottle of champagne..

..but as Dirk notes - why some bottles, and not others? - and why some bottlings, but not all?

Makes me suspect that the source of the microbe lies in the cork..

griff · Post by **griff** » 09:07 Mon 24 Sep 2012

uncle tom wrote:
unless that biological process was causing increased pressure inside the bottle
Which I think it must be doing. The corks I pulled recently were not super tight, but tighter than one normally finds in a sound bottle twice that age.

You may also recall the occasion when I first re-corked some Ni97's and you witnessed one bottle in my kitchen erupting its contents like a bottle of champagne..

..but as Dirk notes - why some bottles, and not others? - and why some bottlings, but not all?

Makes me suspect that the source of the microbe lies in the cork..

It could be storage conditions perhaps? Bret blooms above 20 degrees Centigrade. Maybe this is a similar situation? It could also be at the limit of the microbes ability to propagate in terms of sugar and pH? At the limit you get inconsistent growth. It may depend on how many microbes you start with as well?

RonnieRoots · Post by **RonnieRoots** » 09:14 Mon 24 Sep 2012

uncle tom wrote: You may also recall the occasion when I first re-corked some Ni97's and you witnessed one bottle in my kitchen erupting its contents like a bottle of champagne..

I know of at least 1 other bottle where the same thing happened. I didn't see it happening myself but was told that it seemed like the juice had started to re-ferment. Very strange.

griff · Post by **griff** » 10:19 Mon 24 Sep 2012

RonnieRoots wrote:
uncle tom wrote: You may also recall the occasion when I first re-corked some Ni97's and you witnessed one bottle in my kitchen erupting its contents like a bottle of champagne..
I know of at least 1 other bottle where the same thing happened. I didn't see it happening myself but was told that it seemed like the juice had started to re-ferment. Very strange.

Now refermentation is an interesting one. It would have to be a hardy yeast indeed that can withstand the percentage alcohol.

g-man · Post by **g-man** » 14:25 Mon 24 Sep 2012

in a winery, commercial yeast will possibly escape and start floating around in the air.

It is certainly plausible that some champagne yeasts may have not been fully killed off and resided int he flawed bottles (though rare)

Fizzy port, at least it saves you from putting the tonic in. Add lime and you're set!

griff · Post by **griff** » 15:14 Mon 24 Sep 2012

g-man wrote:in a winery, commercial yeast will possibly escape and start floating around in the air.

It is certainly plausible that some champagne yeasts may have not been fully killed off and resided int he flawed bottles (though rare)

Fizzy port, at least it saves you from putting the tonic in. Add lime and you're set!

You have caused me embarrassment. I laughed aloud. On a train. In Britain. That is simply not done it seems as it caused some reproving looks! Perhaps because I am in the quiet car

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 19:40 Sat 29 Jun 2013

I have bought a bottle of Ni97, neglecting to remind myself of this thread.. I am curious to know whether the amount of sticky brown stuff around the capsule is familiar to others who have had unfortunate experiences with this port. Below are three images, not of exceptionally high quality but demonstrating the spread of this (odourless) marmite-like substance around the top of the bottle, and also the apparent crowning of the cork out of the bottle mouth. I am worried this may be a foamer, of the kind that uncle tom has described elsewhere.

Any thoughts?

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 20:30 Sat 29 Jun 2013

Any thoughts?

Yes - as it's a lone bottle, decant it. And as it's still quite young, give it a long decant (maybe two days) and then let us know how badly the problem affects its drinking qualities.

Dirk is very honest about the problems with this wine, and has exchanged a lot of stock for other vintages. If he could, I think he'd gladly replace every bottle in existence, but I don't think it's fair to take him up on this with odd bottles or stock bought at auction; so in the interests of science, I would suggest this is one to open and report back on..

Post by **DRT** » 20:30 Sat 29 Jun 2013

That looks like a standard bottle of Niepoort 1997.

Dirk has a history of replacing leaking bottles of Ni97 with bottles of the latest vintage.

Post by **DRT** » 20:34 Sat 29 Jun 2013

uncle tom wrote:If he could, I think he'd gladly replace every bottle in existence, but I don't think it's fair to take him up on this with odd bottles or stock bought at auction

If he was a car manufacturer that is exactly what he would have to do. Niepoort 1997 is a product that has a known fault that renders it useless. All of them should be recalled.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 20:40 Sat 29 Jun 2013

If he was a car manufacturer that is exactly what he would have to do.

True - but can you recall a wine-maker ever taking such a stance? I can think of a few that have lied through their teeth, rather than admit there was a problem..

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 20:42 Sat 29 Jun 2013

*long, pained exhalation*
I might see if there's some recourse to refund from the seller before I start despatching single bottles to the Douro.. And I don't think it would be the perfect way to say hello when I'm over in September either. I bought some halves alongside it which seem sound(er). Perhaps I should open one of them alongside the 750ml and compare and contrast as uncle tom suggests..

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 21:16 Sat 29 Jun 2013

Uh this looks like a heat damaged bottle as the cork is significantly pushed up. So while this vintage does have some issues this bottle seems to have had poor storage at some point.

Can you return it?

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 21:19 Sat 29 Jun 2013

Andy Velebil wrote:Uh this looks like a heat damaged bottle as the cork is significantly pushed up. So while this vintage does have some issues this bottle seems to have had poor storage at some point.

Can you return it?

Looking into that now...

Post by **DRT** » 22:01 Sat 29 Jun 2013

Andy Velebil wrote:Uh this looks like a heat damaged bottle as the cork is significantly pushed up. So while this vintage does have some issues this bottle seems to have had poor storage at some point.

Can you return it?

Heat damage in the UK is extremely unlikely. "Extremely unlikely" meaning almost never. The only bottles I have seen in the UK with symptoms of heat damage have been (a) shipped and returned from the new world, or; (b) stored in a shop window or kitchen cupboard. We do not experience the summer shipping problems that you do in the USA or southern Europe.

I think this bottle is just a typical Ni97 leaker.

Post by **DRT** » 22:02 Sat 29 Jun 2013

uncle tom wrote:
If he was a car manufacturer that is exactly what he would have to do.
True - but can you recall a wine-maker ever taking such a stance? I can think of a few that have lied through their teeth, rather than admit there was a problem..

You have supported my stance very well

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 22:08 Sat 29 Jun 2013

Derek. I've seen plenty of these leakers but none with such a pushed up cork. The normal cause of which is heat damage. While I understand it may not happen often in the uk it can and does happen from time to time in any region (ok I guess the South Pole may be an exception lol). Thus while it may have leaked prior to the heat damage as well the pushed cork points to a serious issue in its own right and one outside the control of Niepoort.

RAYC · Post by **RAYC** » 23:03 Sat 29 Jun 2013

I would be amazed if it is heat damaged...

There are two known problems with Ni97:

I) Leakers

II) VA

In my short experience of this wine, it is possible to have a leaker that shows well, it is also possible to have a non-leaker that tastes like nail varnish. It is also possible to have a very good bottle

Personally it's a wine I'd stay away from, but considering what we know about this port I'd be skeptical that this is the type of extreme heat damage that causes a pushed cork as opposed to the known cause of leakage with this wine (overfill on production line)

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 23:44 Sat 29 Jun 2013

Ray,
What you say makes no sense. The leak issue from the bottling line has nothing to do with a pushed cork and potential leakage caused by heat damage.

I'm sorry but the whole "we live in the uk so heat damage can't happen" is utter non-sense. Heat damage can and does occur anywhere.

g-man · Post by **g-man** » 23:53 Sat 29 Jun 2013

Andy Velebil wrote:Ray,
What you say makes no sense. The leak issue from the bottling line has nothing to do with a pushed cork and potential leakage caused by heat damage.

I'm sorry but the whole "we live in the uk so heat damage can't happen" is utter non-sense. Heat damage can and does occur anywhere.

except antarctica

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 00:17 Sun 30 Jun 2013

g-man wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:Ray,
What you say makes no sense. The leak issue from the bottling line has nothing to do with a pushed cork and potential leakage caused by heat damage.

I'm sorry but the whole "we live in the uk so heat damage can't happen" is utter non-sense. Heat damage can and does occur anywhere.
except antarctica

Precisely, unless stored by the heater or stove.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 00:34 Sun 30 Jun 2013

Typical port forum debate; the Brits get entrenched, the Yanks get whimsical. You guys..

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 00:39 Sun 30 Jun 2013

djewesbury wrote:Typical port forum debate; the Brits get entrenched, the Yanks get whimsical. You guys..

But we both have one thing in common...drinking lots o Port

Glenn E. · Post by **Glenn E.** » 01:21 Sun 30 Jun 2013

Two thoughts:

1) The Selo appears to be pristine, which leads me to believe that this bottle has not leaked. I suspect that it was leaked on by some other bottle.

2) As I recall, some Niepoort bottles are rounded at the top. The widest point near the top of those bottles is not the actual top of the bottle. In your first picture, the top of the rounded glass would be just below the black line from the printing on the very top of the capsule. That said, I can't tell from your pictures whether or not this is one of those bottles. If yes, then the cork is only slightly pushed. If no, then the cork looks to be pushed pretty significantly - 1/8" or more.

g-man · Post by **g-man** » 02:05 Sun 30 Jun 2013

got a case of this stuff and 4 are leaky and the other 8 are pristine they came from same case

how i get that new vintage replacement policy =)

RAYC · Post by **RAYC** » 07:22 Sun 30 Jun 2013

I've seen a couple of bottles appear outwardly pristine but under the capsule reveal the wine has penetrated up the sides of the cork - i'm not sure it's possible to tell definitively unless you get the capsule off. This bottle certainly looks like it might have been "leaked on", but from one of the capsule's air holes in the pic there also looks like there might be some gunk under the capsule (which i assume would have to come from the bottle itself)

RAYC · Post by **RAYC** » 07:37 Sun 30 Jun 2013

Andy Velebil wrote:Ray,
What you say makes no sense. The leak issue from the bottling line has nothing to do with a pushed cork and potential leakage caused by heat damage.

I'm sorry but the whole "we live in the uk so heat damage can't happen" is utter non-sense. Heat damage can and does occur anywhere.

There seem to be a number of references to Ni97s with pushed corks if you do a bit of googling - this still seems to me to suggest a wider issue with this wine (whether as a result of bottling line issues or refermentation of the type seen by Tom and Ronnie) rather than a storage-specific issue

Post by **DRT** » 09:49 Sun 30 Jun 2013

Andy Velebil wrote:Ray,
What you say makes no sense. The leak issue from the bottling line has nothing to do with a pushed cork and potential leakage caused by heat damage.

I'm sorry but the whole "we live in the uk so heat damage can't happen" is utter non-sense. Heat damage can and does occur anywhere.

Firstly, RAYC's name is Rob, not Ray

No one has said that it can't happen, just that it is very rare here in the UK because we have rubbish weather.

A protruding cork is not necessarily caused by heat. It can be caused by secondary fermentation or it might be that the cork was never fully inserted in the first place.

Given the history of this wine I think it is far more likely that the fault lies with the producer rather then the people who have handled and stored it since bottling.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 11:57 Sun 30 Jun 2013

It can be caused by secondary fermentation or it might be that the cork was never fully inserted in the first place.

Both are possible, but given the amount of seepage on this bottle, I'd put my money on secondary fermentation.

Incidentally, if you 'do the math' as our former colonial cousins are wont to say, a bottle would normally have to get bloody hot to lift the cork.

As a bottle warms up, the glass expands, making the bottle slightly more capacious, but the wine expands faster, so in the rare instance of there being no air between the wine and the base of the cork, the cork would be subjected to a lot of force.

However, when you consider the force normally needed to remove a young cork, and the ability of the small amount of gas inside to compress, most bottles are unlikely to show any sign of distress, even after travelling in the hottest of vehicles..

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 12:30 Sun 30 Jun 2013

uncle tom wrote:the glass expands, making the bottle slightly more capacious

As the pyrotechnician amongst us you are the expert on this, but I would have thought that the expansion of the glass (are we talking microns here?) would be even in each direction - meaning that the space inside the bottle would actually contract...

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 12:32 Sun 30 Jun 2013

Also: if a cork has already dried out and shrunk somewhat, would it then not rise more easily? Presumably that was what happened with these two corks from my Belfast tasting last week? Both were slightly mushroomed (the top of the Fonseca cork is to the right, the top of the Malvedos is the left-hand end; click to enlarge each).

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 13:13 Sun 30 Jun 2013

uncle tom wrote:
It can be caused by secondary fermentation or it might be that the cork was never fully inserted in the first place.
Both are possible, but given the amount of seepage on this bottle, I'd put my money on secondary fermentation.

However, when you consider the force normally needed to remove a young cork, and the ability of the small amount of gas inside to compress, most bottles are unlikely to show any sign of distress, even after travelling in the hottest of vehicles..

Tom,
Wanna make a bet on that last one? I live in a dessert (parts of L.A. hit 110+ yesterday..that would be 43.3 celcius) and on a warm summer day a bottle left in the car, or trunk, can heat up quite rapidly and cause the cork to push up and leak. Seen it happen on more than one occasion over the years. And ask any wine store employee here how many times in the summer they've gotten calls or customers who've returned to say when they got home the wine was leaking. First question asked is "did you drive home with it in the trunk?" Answer is almost always yes. Matter of fact some wine stores here put up signs telling people not to put it in the trunk even for a short drive home and not to leave it in the car without the a/c running.

While I won't say secondary fermentation can never happen in any fortified wine, the whole point of adding the Brandy is it stops the fermentation process. At 19.5+% ABV you won't get a secondary fermentation unless something went horribly wrong...as in someone added a yeast that will survive and thrive in a high alcohol concentration. And since VP isn't bottled until almost 2 years after harvest the possibility of a SF occurring in bottle two plus years later is basically non-existent.

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 13:15 Sun 30 Jun 2013

DRT wrote:Firstly, RAYC's name is Rob, not Ray

No one has said that it can't happen, just that it is very rare here in the UK because we have rubbish weather.

A protruding cork is not necessarily caused by heat. It can be caused by secondary fermentation or it might be that the cork was never fully inserted in the first place.

Given the history of this wine I think it is far more likely that the fault lies with the producer rather then the people who have handled and stored it since bottling.

Was using my phone on Tapatalk and it must have auto-corrected and removed the "c" at the end and changed the caps to a name.

See my above post regarding secondary fermentation.