ACPT Port tasting, NYC, March 9, 2013

[Glenn E.]

The American Crossword Puzzle Tournament is a week earlier next year, so I thought we should get the planning started for the annual ACPT Port Tasting. Hopefully the one week change won't cause us any scheduling problems.

My wife and I will probably arrive in NYC on Friday, 3/8. We could theoretically hold the tasting that evening, but last year it seemed that Saturday evening was more convenient for the locals. So this year we'll start the planning with Saturday, March 9th, and see what happens. I believe that Sandy and Ruth plan to attend again this year.

Past themes have included Taylor, Dow, Sandeman, and 20 Year Old Tawnies.

I'd love to do a Graham's vertical, so will toss that out as a first suggestion. Any other ideas?
(this theme subsequently discarded in favor of "Baga-esque")

Chosen theme: "Baga-esque"
Group A (abnormally dark): FG76, GC77, SW77, D80, GC80, KL70? (search in progress)
Group B (normal color range): D85, F85, G85, T85, GM86, W85

Guest List (last updated 2/26/2013):
1. Glenn E. (1980 Dow)
2. g-man (1976 Fonseca Guimaraens)
3. Chris Doty (1986 Graham's Malvedos)
4. Sandy (jefe7000) (1977 Gould Campbell, 1977 Smith Woodhouse)
5. Ruth (Sandy +1, see above)
6. Lamont Huxley (1985 Taylor Fladgate)
7. John M. (1980 Gould Campbell)
8. differentdave (adopting from SushiNorth)
9. ARS (1985 Dow, 1985 Graham)
10. SushiNorth (1985 Fonseca, 1985 Warre)
11. Fred (ARS +1, adopting from ARS)

[g-man]

I'm surprisingly very light on Grahams, the only vintage I have is the 85 and a 79 malvedos in magnum.

I do have a buttload of warres lbvs/vps/sqvp

i think i have 74, 76, 77, 80, 81-86

[Chris Doty]

March is far for me to look into the future, but it sounds fun and I have the 70, 77, 80, 85 and 94 on hand (there may be a cheeky 83 lying about somewhere too, but it's camoflaged)

[Chris Doty]

Also have a bunch of ready warre's I'm looking to crack open (58, 66, 70, etc)

Whatever pleases

[g-man]

we can continue the slow trending ny habit of tasting old cockburns

i have the 50 and 55.

[Glenn E.]

I'd be up for Cockburns. I'm not terribly fond of Warre's Ports... and since I'm also not terribly fond of Dow or Sandeman I'd like to avoid making it 3 out of 4 for these tastings.

On the other hand, I have no Cockburns available. I'd have to purchase or adopt.

Grahams I have spare bottles of '66, '77, '83, '85, '91, '94 in bottles and '85, '94, '03 in magnum. Realistically, the magnums are all still too young.

[Glenn E.]

Or we could do a horizontal of some older year, or a "decade survey" of assorted bottles... 50s or 60s would be good. I'd again probably have to purchase, but that's fine with me. This need not be a super formal tasting with a hard theme. I mostly just want to get together with the NY crowd again and drink some Port!

[g-man]

Or we could do a horizontal of some older year, or a "decade survey" of assorted bottles... 50s or 60s would be good. I'd again probably have to purchase, but that's fine with me. This need not be a super formal tasting with a hard theme. I mostly just want to get together with the NY crowd again and drink some Port!

would sandy n co be joining us as it changes the reservation dynamics

[Glenn E.]

Or we could do a horizontal of some older year, or a "decade survey" of assorted bottles... 50s or 60s would be good. I'd again probably have to purchase, but that's fine with me. This need not be a super formal tasting with a hard theme. I mostly just want to get together with the NY crowd again and drink some Port!

would sandy n co be joining us as it changes the reservation dynamics

I believe that Sandy and Ruth plan to attend again this year.

I haven't confirmed that yet, but Sandy mentioned it again at the last tasting so I'm pretty sure they intend to attend.

[g-man]

shall we try and track down some old niepoorts?

i've been curious

i only have recent vintages like the 94/97/2000

[RAYC]

shall we try and track down some old niepoorts?

Good luck!

[jefe7000]

As Glenn said above, we're planning to attend again. As to theme, we'll go along with whatever you decide - and either buy, adopt, or bring from our cellar the appropriate Ports.

Sandy & Ruth

[Lamont Huxley]

I'd definitely be in again this year if there's room.

Hey g-man, any chance you still have my notes from last year's event floating around?

[jdaw1]

Hey g-man, any chance you still have my notes from last year's event floating around?

We sometimes have that problem in the UK as well. Good luck getting TN sheets a year later.

Late in the next evening, photograph them. Yours and others’.

[g-man]

I'd definitely be in again this year if there's room.

Hey g-man, any chance you still have my notes from last year's event floating around?

i believe I do acutally

[Glenn E.]

shall we try and track down some old niepoorts?

Having gone through that experience already this year, I'll have to vote no. Old Niepoorts are both extremely rare in the U.S. and also extremely expensive. My two bottles for the FTLOP tasting with Dirk came to $1000 and were both tawnies as I couldn't find any rubies under $700 each.

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[g-man]

As DRT posted here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6293&start=25#p54036

Perhaps a tasting of F76, SW77 & D80 v D85, F85 & T85 would demonstrate the point?
I happen to have all in my cellar except the d80 I think i have a T85 but would need to check too.

though someone would need to point out to me what braga-esque is

[Lamont Huxley]

I'd definitely be in again this year if there's room.

Hey g-man, any chance you still have my notes from last year's event floating around?

i believe I do acutally

Awesome, I'd love to have them. I suppose if all works out I could just pick them up from you at the event. Better late than never

[Lamont Huxley]

Maybe a horizontal? 70 or 77 perhaps? Or maybe an SQVP theme?

[Glenn E.]

As DRT posted here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6293&start=25#p54036

Perhaps a tasting of F76, SW77 & D80 v D85, F85 & T85 would demonstrate the point?
I happen to have all in my cellar except the d80 I think i have a T85 but would need to check too.

though someone would need to point out to me what braga-esque is

Those 6 sound like a great tasting to me. If you're willing to supply the bottles that will certainly make it easier for those of us coming from out of state, but if not we can almost certainly find those and order them ahead of time. We would, of course, reimburse you for the bottles either via exchange or cash. I have both a spare D80 and a spare T85 if needed.

I'm sure we could come up with additional bottles should the need arise for more than 6. If I understand the intent correctly, then I believe that GC77 and F80 would be suitable examples for the two sides of the coin.

I, too, need to have braga-esque explained to me.

[RAYC]

I, too, need to have braga-esque explained to me.

My guess:

braga-esque means something akin to a particular type of science fiction storyline (bizarre, requiring the suspension of belief, and where things are not all that they seem)!

[g-man]

So the theme being a VP that underperforms vs a SQVP that over performs?

so in this case we do the F 76 and F 80?

ar ethere other examples where the seemingly underrated SQVP outperforms it's more prominent underperforming brethren?

[jdaw1]

Croft 1975 versus Croft Roeda 1983?

Most 1975 vintages versus any non-’75 SQVP?

[g-man]

Croft 1975 versus Croft Roeda 1983?

Most 1975 vintages versus any non-’75 SQVP?

how about the F75??

[Glenn E.]

So the theme being a VP that underperforms vs a SQVP that over performs?

That doesn't entirely fit Derek's list, as he puts forth only a single SQVP and then a mix a "overperforming" and "underperforming" Vintage Ports. Though frankly, it's difficult to call any of the Ports on his list truely underperforming. The T85 comes closest, I guess, but I would call that one merely "average" and not poor.

Also, I do not have a spare D80 like I thought. I still haven't managed to enter my tasting notes from the "Roy's Top 12" tasting last March and so my cellar records aren't completely up-to-date.

[RAYC]

as he puts forth only a single SQVP and then a mix a "overperforming" and "underperforming" Vintage Ports. Though frankly, it's difficult to call any of the Ports on his list truely underperforming.

I hadn't interpreted Derek's comments about the D80, SW77 or FG76 as being "overperforming". (if anything, i thought he was saying they were over-rated)

[DRT]

I, too, need to have braga-esque explained to me.

My guess:

braga-esque means something akin to a particular type of science fiction storyline (bizarre, requiring the suspension of belief, and where things are not all that they seem)!

A fine description

G-man and Glenn - half of the ports I have listed are from lesser vintages yet are significantly darker in colour to their siblings from classic years. The colour tells a story that all might not be quite as it seems with these wines. "Braga" is the black juice from a special sort of grape that does not grow on a vine

[g-man]

I, too, need to have braga-esque explained to me.

My guess:

braga-esque means something akin to a particular type of science fiction storyline (bizarre, requiring the suspension of belief, and where things are not all that they seem)!

A fine description

G-man and Glenn - half of the ports I have listed are from lesser vintages yet are significantly darker in colour to their siblings from classic years. The colour tells a story that all might not be quite as it seems with these wines. "Braga" is the black juice from a special sort of grape that does not grow on a vine

did you mean teh baga grape from typically the Barraida region, which was used during various times to add color to the wines? muhc like some of the cali producers were accused of adding "mega purple" to the cabs to give them a sweetness, color and body?

[DRT]

Not the baga grape, "baga de sabugueiro" (apologies for the errant "r"). Read page 13 of Mayson's second edition for further info

[Glenn E.]

G-man and Glenn - half of the ports I have listed are from lesser vintages yet are significantly darker in colour to their siblings from classic years.

F76, SW77 & D80 v D85, F85 & T85

Then I'm still confused. Neither 1977 nor 1985 are lesser vintages. 1980 is only in the sense that it was a general declaration, but there's not much of note that's come from that general declaration. I assumed that "lesser vintage" meant one that was not generally declared, but evidently you mean something else by that.

I can see how FG76, SW77, and D80 could all be considered to be "overperforming" Ports. I would also consider F85 to be an "overperforming" Port, but at the very least I cannot see how it can in any sense of the word be considered "underperforming." D85 is a rock solid Port; I wouldn't be able to argue it as either over or under. I can make a case for T85 being underperforming, but a strong case can be made for it being "merely average." My case would rely heavily on the fact that "merely average" is underperforming for Taylor Fladgate.

edit: html repair

[DRT]

I'm obviously being too cryptic.

F85, D85 and T85 are all younger than the other three by between 5 and 9 years and are all within the range of colour that I would expect to see for a solid VP of that age. However, FG76, SW77 and D80 are all, in my opinion, too dark in colour to be made entirely from fortified grape juice that has been aged in bottle for 30 years+. That doesn't make them under or over-performing. It means they are an unnatural colour for a mature VP.

[Glenn E.]

I'm obviously being too cryptic.

F85, D85 and T85 are all younger than the other three by between 5 and 9 years and are all within the range of colour that I would expect to see for a solid VP of that age. However, FG76, SW77 and D80 are all, in my opinion, too dark in colour to be made entirely from fortified grape juice that has been aged in bottle for 30 years+. That doesn't make them under or over-performing. It means they are an unnatural colour for a mature VP.

Aha, it now makes sense.

My recommendation of GC77 stands, but I misunderstood the other end and F80 will no longer do. We could replace it with G85 to keep the theme on the younger end.

[g-man]

So, what's the deal

we have two wines of the same vintage,

one where the color is clearly darker than expected vs. one of the expected vintage

would the fonseca 70 count too?

the 76's of other houses may be really difficult to spot.

we have alsot he dow 80s vs any other 80s.
the SW 77/ GC 77 vs any other 77s
F85/T85 vs any other 85s
any other candidates?

[Glenn E.]

It doesn't need to be quite that specific, I think. Derek chose three that he felt were much darker than normal, and three that he felt were still within the range of what he would consider to be normal for a mature (or nearly mature) Vintage Port. All three of the 1985s on his list fit the latter category.

If we go with Derek's list, the FG76, SW77, and D80 are the "abnormally dark" category. We could add GC77 to the "abnormally dark" Ports if we need 8 bottles. Derek's list of D85, F85, and T85 as the "normal color" Ports can be supplemented with G85.

I have GC77, F85, G85, and T85 available.

[DRT]

I can confirm that Glenn now gets my drift

To help g-man I will explain that light/dark isn't really the issue. It is more to do with colour/hue.

For example - FG76 is inky-black, dense with a very dark brownish hue. It looks like molasses. F77 is a dark, dense ruby red with a slightly golden hue. It looks like a not-yet-mature vintage port.

What on earth could make that difference?

[Alex Bridgeman]

What on earth could make that difference?

Squid ink? Are you suggesting a squid ink tasting?

[John M]

If there is room, I may be able to make it. G-Man--is there room for a New Jerseyan or two?

I would either have to adopt a bottle or acquire--please advise.

[g-man]

just you?

I think we have 6 yes' so far.

[Miguel Simoes]

This tasting (and meeting up w you) looks super interesting!

From the sound of it am afraid it may be a little over my budget, though.

Could you bracket it for me in that regard? Otherwise, which of the desired bottles are you still missing, so i can estimate how much that might run me?

All this assuming there would be room for one more!

Thanks, Miguel

[g-man]

The cost depends on what we are tasting and the food

typically it's 100$/food and the cost of the bottle depending on the tasting.

If we get more people i can certainly find a place for cheaper but I dont think we can escape 65$/person (tax and tip included) in manhattan

just FYi.

As with the bottles.
The candidates are
FG76
SW77
D80
GC77
D85
F85
T85
to be paired against a wine from the same/close vintage.
The fg76 might be hard to find a match

but we can certainly do the others
77s, we can do the F77 which would significantly increase cost, or do something like a Grahams/Warres/Sandeman
the 80s, all of the big houses are rather affordable: Taylor/Fonseca/Grahams/Warres
85, Grahams, churchills, sandeman

[differentdave]

count me in if space and I havea few 60"s and 70's lying around if not I will source.

[Glenn E.]

As with the bottles.
The candidates are
FG76
SW77
D80
GC77
D85
F85
T85
to be paired against a wine from the same/close vintage.
The fg76 might be hard to find a match

I think you're still misunderstanding Derek's concept. The above list contains all of the Ports needed... no further pairing needs to be done.

Group A is FG76, SW77, D80. These are Derek's "abnormally dark" Ports.

Group B is D85, F85, and T85. These are Derek's "normal range of color" Ports.

I proposed one addition to each group should we need 8 bottles instead of 6. I proposed adding GC77 to Group A and G85 to Group B.

All of the Ports in Group A are older than all of the Ports in Group B, and so should in theory be more mature and therefore lighter in color. Given my experiences with all of the above except for FG76, however, this is not likely to be the case. The Group A Ports are all likely to be significantly darker than the Group B Ports, including the normally quite dark F85. We've even seen this in person, as we had both the D80 and the D85 at a previous ACPT tasting. The D80 was darker than everything in the lineup except the 2007 and the 2000 (I think... might have been the 2003).

Anyway... we currently have 8 bottles planned. We should probably start an attendee list in the first post, so I'll go edit that and do so.

Differentdave - Unless g-man or SushiNorth has acquired a bottle in the past year, we're going to need to source a 1980 Dow. We will also need to source a 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens. If you could take on the task of finding one or the other or both that would be very useful.

[Glenn E.]

From the sound of it am afraid it may be a little over my budget, though.

Could you bracket it for me in that regard? Otherwise, which of the desired bottles are you still missing, so i can estimate how much that might run me?

G-man is the reservation and food expert, and in the past his estimates have been very accurate. So figure $100 for dinner at a Manhattan steak house, plus a bottle of Port (or the cost to adopt a bottle from somone else). You should be able to find the ones we're currently discussing for no more than $100 with two notable exceptions: 1980 Dow and 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens are both likely to be more expensive due to their rarity. Whoever brings those will receive compensation for the extra expense.

So it will probably cost around $200 to attend unless you happen to already have one of the bottles in the theme.

[g-man]

From the sound of it am afraid it may be a little over my budget, though.

Could you bracket it for me in that regard? Otherwise, which of the desired bottles are you still missing, so i can estimate how much that might run me?

G-man is the reservation and food expert, and in the past his estimates have been very accurate. So figure $100 for dinner at a Manhattan steak house, plus a bottle of Port (or the cost to adopt a bottle from somone else). You should be able to find the ones we're currently discussing for no more than $100 with two notable exceptions: 1980 Dow and 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens are both likely to be more expensive due to their rarity. Whoever brings those will receive compensation for the extra expense.

So it will probably cost around $200 to attend unless you happen to already have one of the bottles in the theme.

125$ for a manhattan steak house =)

my sole bottle of fg 76 ... my preccciiiooouuusssss.

[Lamont Huxley]

I've got T85 and D85 to offer but it sounds like others do too...

[Glenn E.]

I ordered some D80 that I found at a really good price this evening, so we're covered there now too. Unless the really good price turns out to be too good to be true.

[Miguel Simoes]

Guys, the tasting sounds truly wonderful but I'll have to pass.
I look fwd to reading your notes and ensuing discussion!

[g-man]

I ordered some D80 that I found at a really good price this evening, so we're covered there now too. Unless the really good price turns out to be too good to be true.

should we throw in wines of same vintage that are normal colored as oppose to an 85 mini horizontal?

[g-man]

Fyi, I paid an appalling 153$ for my fg 76. let me know if people are fine with splitting the cost of that or shall i contribute one of the other bottles in the tasting.

[Glenn E.]

Fyi, I paid an appalling 153$ for my fg 76. let me know if people are fine with splitting the cost of that or shall i contribute one of the other bottles in the tasting.

I think we are not likely to find another FG76 and I'm happy to share in the cost so that we can all try it. Since the rest of the bottles are now all likely to be under $100 with the D80 and FG76 secured, I think the average will still be in the $100 range.

I'm happy with a mini '85 horizontal serving as the "normal" Ports, as that will avoid having to pay for more '77s to match the GC and SW. But if others would prefer to date match, that'd be okay too.

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