Port storage advice needed

[fallenguru]

Hello all,

I've only recently gotten into port, in fact just before Christmas, when I picked up a bottle of M&S own brand reserve ruby on a trip to London. Fast forward through a tasting spree that's covered the major reserve rubys, 10 y.o. tawnys, some LBVs and even crusted ports I now find that the first VPs are turning up on my doorstep and my budding collection is growing faster than it's possible -- or at any rate prudent -- to drink it. So a way to store a few bottles for a few months or even years seems indicated. Then again, VPs at the peak of their drinking age do not come cheap and I'm a patient man, so why not do it properly and go in for long time storage. Admittedly I quite like the idea of getting in on the ground floor with the 2011 VPs as well.

I have a tiny cellar compartment, which is in the middle of the building so stays cool enough now, but it's only about 50% below ground, so I fear it'll go above 20°C during summer heat spells. The daily temperature variation has been < 2.5°C during the last few months. Humidity is too low, but nothing that a bucket of water can't fix. Insulating the compartment in a rare fit of DIY might work, but then again it might not. It's an awkwardly shaped room and I've got no clue as to how much insulation would be needed ...

Option two is a wine refrigerator, though as there don't seem to be any that'll fit in the cellar that'd have to go into the flat proper. As that sits directly under a badly insulated tin roof it tends to get hot during the summer, close to 40°C on bad days, which in turn necessitates a well-made wine fridge that doesn't die during the first heat wave. (It's bad enough that I almost do.) Eurocave do have a stellar reputation but no presence at all here in Austria. Liebherr's GrandCru series does seem to be the best bet right now but I've no idea if those are suited to long term storage of port at all. After all, most people seem to think letting a plain red wine sit for five years is "long term".

Whatever I do, it's always nice to keep things in perspective, so I set a budget of ~€1.500 for this project -- all the better if I do not have to max it out, then I can drink the remainder

Any and all advice is much appreciated,

fallenguru

[jdaw1]

Many members of this forum, including some outside the UK, have a storage account at Seckford Wines. There might be an Austrian equivalent.

[Glenn E.]

I have a Eurocave refrigerator and have been very pleased with it so far. The room that mine is in does not reach 40°C ever, though, so mine has not been put to that particular stress test. I believe that it would pass if tested, though, for what that is worth. The Eurocave is almost silent and very nearly vibration-free. I have no doubt that my Vintage Port is well-stored. My Eurocave exceeds your budget, unfortunately.

I also have an off-brand refrigerator that I use for less important rubies and most of my tawnies. It is noisier, vibrates a little, and when I purchased it used it had already burned through one refrigeration unit. I suspect that it wouldn't survive a 40°C test, but it works fine for medium term (5-10 years) storage of less important bottles. This unit was quite inexpensive ($750), but the difference is obvious when compared to the Eurocave.

[RAYC]

I have never heard anyone be disappointed with a liebherr.

From a quality:price ratio perspective, it seems to be the wine cabinet of choice on wine-pages. (e.g. see this thread)

Otherwise Transtherm is a step down in price from eurocave and seem to be well made / solidly built. You may be able to find one at the right price.

HOWEVER, i think 40 degrees will be pushing it with a wine fridge - even a eurocave. The advice i got with mine was that 35 was about the maximum that the unit could cope with for any extended period of time, but obviously worth asking the merchant for whatever make you end up choosing.

[uncle tom]

Adding slabs of foam insulation to the sides, top and door of a fridge will cut down running costs, and make it better able to cope if the ambient temperature spikes high from time to time.

Won't make it look any prettier though...

[roel]

H Insulating the compartment in a rare fit of DIY might work, but then again it might not. It's an awkwardly shaped room and I've got no clue as to how much insulation would be needed ...

This is a no brainer!

If you already have a cellar/room which you are willing to commit completely to wine storage I would never consider wine fridges. After all, you're paying a lot of money for a steel box and shelves which you don't need.

Just insulate the room and install a small cooling system. The cheapest and most efficient option is a standard split airco system. Much better efficiency compared to a wine fridge - after all, you're transporting heat outside of the house and not into the same room as where the fridges are located. I would advise a quality brand such as Daikin - not the cheap chinese stuff. This is a cooling system that will be running 24/7 - so both efficiency and reliability will pay off in the long term! For all but the largest cellars you'll be fine with the smallest system, usually around 2kW and you can have a Daikin system for as low as EUR 500 (You're in austria, so this Italian retailer might be a good deal: http://www.convienesempre.it/daikin-mon ... h-p-c.html).

As for the insulation: the more you add to the room, the less power you will need for cooling. So simply put in as much insulation as is feasible. Use efficient PIR based insulation plates, they will give you a better insulation value per cm thickness and are easy to handle. Take care to create as few cold-bridges as possible, e.g. metal screws that go through the insulation, cracks, etc. They will leak some heat, but more importantly, they will be cold spots on the /outside/ of your cellar, and will be the points where condensation is formed.

To avoid cold bridges through cracks in plate-joints it is a good option to overlay two layers of 5cm plates instead of using a single layer as two layers will give you the option to offset the second layer both in the X and Y direction. I would insulate to at least an R value of 4.5 to 5 m2K/W (which corresponds with about 10 to 12 cm of PIR plating, they usually have an R value of around .45 m2K/W per cm thickness). Don't forget the door!

You will also need to combine the airco with a small humidifier. Another option is to use an airco that can also control humidity levels. The Daikin Uhura Sahara series does that. However, they are more expensive (starting at around EUR 1250). Not all airco's can be set to a 13c temperature, so you might need some extra hardware or a software modification. For Daikin equipment this is no issue (specifically for wine cellar use).

You will need a vacuum pump (and someone with an f-gas certificate) to pressure-test and vacuum the system after installation, before opening up the valves. However, most of the installation work is not that hard and can easily be done by yourself. Just get an airco guy in there for the final soldering, flaring, pressure-testing and and vacuuming after you have physically installed the indoor and outdoor unit and the copper tubing in between. Final work for a single-split system is no more than an hour of work (most of which is drinking coffee while waiting for the vacuum to stand), so that should set you back around EUR 100 to EUR 150.

With sufficient insulation (R value of around 5) and a 2KW cooling system you will be safe up to at least 25m3. The smaller the room, the less surface area with the warm outside, the smaller the temperature difference and the more insulation you add will lower the energy needed to cool the room. I've done some calculations a while back for a 8m3 room, outside room temperature of 18-25C, insulation R=5 and I remember it to be around 400 to 500kWh/year. Which is way better than a wine fridge, where even the most efficient version use 250kWh/year for around 1m3 of volume.

[mosesbotbol]

This is a no brainer!

If you already have a cellar/room which you are willing to commit completely to wine storage I would never consider wine fridges. After all, you're paying a lot of money for a steel box and shelves which you don't need.

Just insulate the room and install a small cooling system.

Agree with the above. Natural cellars are the way to go.

[RAYC]

This is a no brainer!

If you already have a cellar/room which you are willing to commit completely to wine storage I would never consider wine fridges. After all, you're paying a lot of money for a steel box and shelves which you don't need.

Just insulate the room and install a small cooling system.

Agree with the above. Natural cellars are the way to go.

Agreed, although not quite sure how a room cooled by air-con could be classified as "natural"!

[uncle tom]

Be careful when deploying room chillers - I've noticed an alarming correlation between 'temperature controlled room' and poor ullage in auction listings.

The reason (I suspect..) is that commercial room chillers intended primarily for beer cellars operate by cutting in when the room reaches a certain temperature, and then cutting out when the temperature has dropped by a couple of degrees.

This can happen several times over a 24hr period, creating a succession of intraday temperature fluctuations. The units also tend to pull down humidity levels.

Keeping racks of bottles shrouded in blankets should help diffuse the temperature problem, and cat litter trays filled with wet wood-shavings will help correct low humidity issues.

[g-man]

I built out a wine room.

it is a modest 8' by 6' and insulated on 4 sides. It is 70% buried with two walls facing the ground outside and 2 walls facing inside.
I use R 10 insulation for the outfacing walls, though now in hindsight i should have used a high R factor.
I use r13 for the interior walls.

i have also installed a wine chilling unit from cellarpro that during the summer when temperatures in NY is ~95-105 F is constantly on but keeps the temperature at 55 degrees with 2-3 degrees of variation throughout the day.

Relative Humidity has also been at a steady 65% as the unit was designed to take moisture extracted and "mist it" back into the room.

I do have a relatively quiet, slow fan (< 300 rpm 10 inch blades) that cycles the air in the room to keep the cold air and moisture from sitting right around the unit.

This winter where we had some brutally cold days my cellar hovers at 49-52 degrees with the unit never having to be turned on unless I'm in there with a bunch of people trying to find something.

[roel]

The reason (I suspect..) is that commercial room chillers intended primarily for beer cellars operate by cutting in when the room reaches a certain temperature, and then cutting out when the temperature has dropped by a couple of degrees.

And that is exactly the reason that I advised the OP to use an inverter-heatpump based airconditioner. They are a lot cheaper then the through-wall "special" wine-branded cooling units and at the same time are much better suited for this purpose.

An inverter airco system will not cycle through on/off stages, but will run continuously with a modulating compressor. Not only more efficient, but the temperature will be much more stable. Furthermore, these come as a standard split system with the compressor and condenser unit outside of the house, also making it (much) more efficient than the through-wall units such as those sold by the "special" wine brands. In my experience, those units are not state-of-the-art and come nowhere near efficiency levels that are reached by modern inverter heat-pump based systems. I've even seen peltier based "through-door" systems sold as "cellar coolers". The product developer probably also bought stock in energy companies when he or she thought of that idea

The units also tend to pull down humidity levels.

True, that is an effect of cooling. When you are cooling air you are at the same time lowering the amount of water vapor that it can contain. So water will condense on the evaporator (which needs to be cooler than the target temperature for the room). I already mentioned this in my original reply and advised on either a humidifier or an airco system that can control humidity (the Daikin Uhura range does that, but it is also just as expensive as a humidifier-regular inverter airco combo).

Keeping racks of bottles shrouded in blankets should help diffuse the temperature problem, and cat litter trays filled with wet wood-shavings will help correct low humidity issues.

No need for blankets with a modern inverter based system! However, always a good idea to put a small temperature data logger in the room. A raspberry pi or sorts with a small temperature I2C sensor will set you back only about $35 and with a few hours of coding will give you nice graphs and great insight into the exact temperature in your room.

By the way: wine fridges do /not/ have inverter based cooling systems. At least, I've never seem them. They all cycle on-off as any regular old fridge. Hmm, this actually got me quite curious about the exact temperature curve in my fridges.. Time to get the soldering iron out and make myself a data logger for all my fridges!

[jdaw1]

The good thing about is that it is populated by geeks who do things well. We don’t all do the same things, but, mostly, we are geeks who do things well. Hurray for us.

[g-man]

By the way: wine fridges do /not/ have inverter based cooling systems. At least, I've never seem them. They all cycle on-off as any regular old fridge. Hmm, this actually got me quite curious about the exact temperature curve in my fridges.. Time to get the soldering iron out and make myself a data logger for all my fridges!

I think you'd be shocked and you might consider getting a new method of storage

[djewesbury]

This being the kind of place where one can declare one's ignorance without fear of derision, here goes..

I am storing my wine in a cellar / crawl-space beneath the house, which is brick built, hovers consistently between 10 and 11 C, and has about 70% humidity. It's about 50% below ground and is directly ventilated to the outside.

I have no aircon, no insulation and no humidifier.

AM I DOING SOMETHING WRONG?

[uncle tom]

AM I DOING SOMETHING WRONG?

NO

[g-man]

AM I DOING SOMETHING WRONG?

NO

but now that we know where they are ... !

[djewesbury]

Oh, I forgot to mention the magic force-field...

[g-man]

Oh, I forgot to mention the magic force-field...

surely no match for my magical port tongs!

[jdaw1]

Oh, I forgot to mention the magic force-field...

Presumably you pass one bottle of 1975 Port through the force-field, and a dozen 1970s land in your storage. Hurray!

IMPORTANT: don’t forget to use the anti-force-field spell before removing port from storage. Otherwise a dozen ’70 becomes no, too horrible to contemplate; let no more be said.

[djewesbury]

surely no match for my magical port tongs!

oh, you think you can cross the Sea of TCA? Beware traveller, many have tried and their bones litter the cellar...

Presumably you pass one bottle of 1975 Port through the force-field, and a dozen 1970s land in your storage. Hurray!

IMPORTANT: don’t forget to use the anti-force-field spell before removing port from storage. Otherwise a dozen ’70 becomes no, too horrible to contemplate; let no more be said.

Best idea is to drink it all down there I think..

[g-man]

What would be the fee for the ferryman to carry us across teh great sea of tca?

[roel]

What would be the fee for the ferryman to carry us across teh great sea of tca?

Polyethylene foil! It absorbs the TCA

[djewesbury]

What would be the fee for the ferryman to carry us across teh great sea of tca?

Polyethylene foil! It absorbs the TCA

Arrgghhh... With your polyethylene cloak my defences are nearly useless...
We'd better just drink them all then. It's a fair cop..

[fallenguru]

Hello,

thank you all for your valuable feedback and sorry it's taken me so long to check back, the last few weeks were a bit hectic, to say the least ...

I did explore the external storage option at some length, but there don't seem to be any specialised wine storage compainies around here. The best I found were self-storage lockers marketed as suitable for wine at €30/month for a space that just might contain 50 of those mythical standard bottles if stacked seven or eight high. No staff (so no direct deliveries) and no insurance at all. So, no.
Shipping my port to the UK for storage seemed a bit overkill -- after all I wanted to drink it, not invest in it, and a little local storage for the ready supply was needed in any case.

Next stop, cellar. Any kind of AC was out, there was no way I'd get permission to install it. No decent (and decent-sized) wine fridge would fit and passive cooling (insulation-only) seemed doubtful. It took only two days of 28°C outside to bring the as yet uninsulated compartment up to 18°C. It could still have worked but DIY was too great a risk and bringing in a professional prohibitively expensive.

So now I have a ~250 btl. Liebherr GrandCru in my living room and I have to say, I like it so far. It seems to work well, is not half the eyesore the promotional photos make it out to be, qiet enough and of course very accessible. Relative humidity goes up to 70+ % overnight (with a bowl of water on the top shelf) and it loses about 10 % per opening, so that's fine. The jury is still out on the temperature cycle, I'll report back when I have more data.

[RAYC]

So now I have a ~250 btl. Liebherr GrandCru in my living room and I have to say, I like it so far. It seems to work well, is not half the eyesore the promotional photos make it out to be, qiet enough and of course very accessible. Relative humidity goes up to 70+ % overnight (with a bowl of water on the top shelf) and it loses about 10 % per opening, so that's fine. The jury is still out on the temperature cycle, I'll report back when I have more data

Very nice. Full bottles of water in empty spaces will help with temperature stability