Port brand abbreviations

[PhilW]

We currently have a "TPF abbreviations" thread here which includes all sorts of abbreviations (people, sites, terms) and a smattering of some of the Port Houses. I suggest it would be an improvement to have a separate post in the reference section of this site providing a comprehensive list of TPF-approved abbreviations for Port Brands (for use on placemats, posts, any indexes etc). A separate post could then list other TPF abbreviations - perhaps also in the reference section, with the existing thread used for discussion of additions and changes as currently in the conversations area.

(edit: the above having been agreed, the determined list update on a regular basis is provided below).

The following abbreviations are used in the current tasting notes alphabetic index, as shown below.

A = J. H. Andresen
Ad = Adam
B = Burmester
BA = Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo
BBR = Berry's Own Selection (Berry Brothers & Rudd)
BI = Borges & Irmão
Bb = Broadbent
BN = Butler Nephew
Br = Barros
Bs = Bulas
BV = Barão de Vilar
Cá = Cálem
CáF = Cálem Quinta da Foz
Ch = Churchill
ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
ChF = Churchill Quinta do Fojo
ChG = Churchill Quinta da Gricha
ChR = Churchill Quinta do Rio
Ck = Cockburn
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
CM = Castro Mello
Cn = Constantino
Ct = Quinta da Côrte, post-Delaforce (but Delaforce Quinta da Côrte remains DfC)
CrR = Croft Quinta da Roêda
CrS = Croft Quinta da Roêda Sērikos
Cs = Quinta do Crasto
CSE = Casa de Santa Eufémia
Cr = Croft
Cz = Cruz
D = Dow
DB = Dow Quinta do Bomfim
DSR = Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
DG = Duff Gordon
Dl = Dalva
Dm = Dolamore
DM = Quinta Dona Matilde
Df = Delaforce
DfC = Delaforce Quinta da Côrte
Du = Duorum
DuCM = Duorum Castelo Melhor
Dv = Quinta da Devesa
Dx = Dixon (& Morgan)
Dz = Diez Hermanos
EV = Quinta da Eira Velha
F = Fonseca
FG = Fonseca Guimaraens
FP = Fonseca Quinta do Panascal
Fc = Fletcher
Fd = Feuerheerd
FH = Factory House
Fr = Ferreira
FrL = Ferreira Quinta da Leda
FrP = Ferreira Quinta do Porto
FrS = Ferreira Quinta do Seixo
Fs = Feist
GB = Gonzalez Byass
G = Graham
GL = Graham’s Quinta das Lages
GM = Graham’s (Quinta dos) Malvedos
GST = Graham’s The Stone Terraces
Gi = Gilbert
GC = Gould Campbell
Gd = Guedes
Gv = Quinta da Gaivosa
H = Hutcheson
Ho = Hooper
Hv = Harvey
In = Quinta do Infantado
Jv = Quinta do Javali
K = Kopke
KL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
Km = Kranemann
Kr = (Wiese &) Krohn
Lc = Quinta das Liceiras
Lm = Quinta das Lamelas
MG = M. Gonzalez
Mg = Morgan
Mk = Mackenzie
Ms = Messias
MsC = Messias Quinta do Cachão
Mt = Martha’s
My = Maynard
MyO = Maynard Organic
Mz = Martinez
Ni = Niepoort
NiB = Niepoort Bioma
NiS = Niepoort Secundum
NM = Noble & Murat
Nv = Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo
N = Quinta do Noval
NN = Quinta do Noval Nacional
NS = Quinta do Noval Silval
O = Offley
OBV = Offley Boa Vista
Os = Osborne
Pa = Quinta da Pacheca
PA = Quinta da Pedra Alta
Pç = Poças
Pe = Petre
Pg = Quinta do Pego
Pi = Pintas
Pm = Palmer
Pn = Piano by Carlos Alonso Douro Wines
Po = Quinta do Pessegueiro
Pr = Quinta da Prelada
Ps = Quinta do Passadouro
Pt = Quinta do Portal
Pt+ = Quinta do Portal+
PtM = Portal Quinta dos Muros
QH = Quarles Harris
QSE = Quinta de Santa Eufémia
Qv = Quevedo
QvA = Quevedo Quinta Vale d’Agodinho
Ra = Quinta da Romaneira
RCV = Real Companhia Velha
Rc = Porto Rocha
Ré = Réccua
Rm = Romariz
Rr = Quinta de Roriz
Rs = Quinta de la Rosa
RO = Royal Oporto
ROC = Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas
ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval
RP = Ramos Pinto
RPE = Ramos Pinto Quinta de Ervamoira
RV = Rebello Valente
RVn = Real Vinicola
Rz = Rozès
S = Sandeman
SV = Sandeman Vau
SS = Sandeman Quinta do Seixo
Sb = Quinta do Sibio
Sk = Skeffington
SJ = A Pinto dos Santos Júnior
SL = São Leonardo
SO = Quinta Seara D’Ordens
Sq = Quinta da Sequeira
SW = Smith Woodhouse
SWM = Smith Woodhouse Madalena
Sz = Porto Souza
T = Taylor
TSQ = Taylor Special Quinta
TTF = Taylor Quinta de Terra Feita
TV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas
TVVV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas Vinha Velha
Tc = Quinta das Tecedeiras
Td = Quinta do Tedo
TdS = Quinta do Tedo Savedra
TH = Tuke Holdsworth
Ud = O-Port-Unidade
V = Quinta do Vesuvio
VAl = Vista AlegreVC = Capela da Quinta do Vesuvio
VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria
VF = Quinta de Val da Figueira
VL = Quinta de Valle Longo
Vl = Quinta do Vallado
VM = Quinta de Vale Meão
Vr = Porto Valriz
VS = Vieira de Sousa
Vz = Quinta de Ventozelo
VZ = Van Zeller
W = Warre
WC = Warre Quinta da Cavadinha


For reference, since I would like to use these abbreviations elsewhere but also keep consistency, I am currently using [Unk] for Unknowns.

[Glenn E.]

+1

One can find said abbreviations in the sorted indexes, but having a sticky post in the reference section would be very useful.

[DRT]

What we need is a pedant with time on his hands to make this happen.

Can anyone think of who that might be?

[djewesbury]

What we need is a pedant with time on his hands to make this happen.

Can anyone think of who that might be?

I can hear you all shouting his name, and I'm in Italy.

[PhilW]

What we need is a pedant with time on his hands to make this happen.

Can anyone think of who that might be?

If accepted as a sensible idea, I'd be happy to create the initial list based on current understanding; if insufficient pedantry I could then be corrected and abused as needed. I would be equally happy for another suitable individual to perform the task in the first place.

[PhilW]

The following abbreviations are used ...

<snip> - list moved to first post in thread.

[jdaw1]

List in first post of this thread.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I've been giving some thought the matter of abbreviations and how we cope with general declarations, lesser declarations, the growth of single quinta wines and also the changing of ownership of quintas.

It seems to me that the only way we could cope was to have a structure that essentially went:
Part 1; Part 2; vintage

Part 1 would identify the shipper, if a shipper was relevant.
Part 2 would identify the quinta, if the port was sourced from a single quinta (or vineyard)
The vintage could be abbreviated, but this could lead to confusion whether we were referring to Taylor 1811, 1911 or 2011.

On this basis you could quickly have a set of rules that allowed flexibility. Consider the example of Vargellas sourced wines:
In 1912, Taylor made a vintage port, a Vargellas single quinta port and a Vargellas single quinta port from the old vines (OK, so they didn't make the latter but just bear with me for the example).
The abbreviations could be:
T 1912
T Vg 1912
T VgVV 1912

This naming structure also allows flexibility so that prior to Taylor Fladgate owning Vargellas, you would have had "Fe Vg 1878", this being the Vargellas 1878 produced under the Ferreira ownership.

If at a point in the future Vargellas become independently owned, the wines would just be identified as Vg 2050.

This type of naming convention would allow a quick search to find all wines produced by a particular shipper or from a particular quinta, or a combination of the two.

It would create some headaches as there would have to be no duplications between quinta abbreviations and shipper abbreviations but it would also help with differentiating between some of the quirks like Quinta do Noval Silval (NoS) and Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval (No Si). A search on "No" would pull out both wines but still allow a more refined search to identify only one of the two.

[jdaw1]

One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.

[Alex Bridgeman]

One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.

True - it is a balance between completeness, brevity and clarity.

If we are just looking for a commonly understood abbreviation then TV96 mostly works.

If we're looking for something which in years to come can be searched and found and understood with clarity then TV96 will generally work, but will leave room for confusion - Taylor Vargellas 1896 or 1996?

Perhaps a quick solution is to abbreviate only where there is potential confusion? Thus TV96 would be TV1996 or TV1896 but FeV78 would be just that? Or perhaps abbreviate 20th century vintages and those where there is no confusion - TV96, TV1896 and FeV78

But life is too short for me to become too worried about this. If we develop a common standard, I will use it; otherwise I will use common sense.

[djewesbury]

One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.

Also, we have to allow for user having a certain amount of brain at their disposal. Perhaps not the end of the world if they are presented with a choice between 1878 and 1978 on searching for a particular wine. They will have very little to do in order to find the notes on the tipple by which they are confronted at that moment. Of course, an infallible system that is ready for any eventuality is always good. Good luck with that one...

[jdaw1]

Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.

[djewesbury]

Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.

thoroughly sensible. +1

[PhilW]

Agree with all of AHB's post, plus the benefit of brevity/simplicity.

Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.

Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.

[jdaw1]

Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.

So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.

[PhilW]

Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.

So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.

I would also accept ChA for brevity (thought ChAA seems more natural), but yes, very strong dislike for CAA.

[Glenn E.]

Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.

So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.

I would also accept ChA for brevity (thought ChAA seems more natural), but yes, very strong dislike for CAA.

Agreed. CAA would be a Cockburn property.

[jdaw1]

List in first post of this thread.

[PhilW]

I would make the following changes:

Ck = Cockburn
VC = Vesuvio Capela

and would suggest:

ChAA Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
DSR Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
KSL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz

[idj123]

Agree with Phil regarding the Ck and VC. Is there any reason why Krohn isn't Kr?

[jdaw1]

Ck = Cockburn

Oops, I started from an old list. Agreed.

VC = Vesuvio Capela

Agree with Phil regarding the Ck and VC.

Clarity versus pedantry. I’m happy with either. VC it is.

ChAA Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta

I prefer the brevity of ChA, which is still unique.

DSR Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira

Senhora feels to me to be a low-information word, hence my preferring the DB-like DR. Other votes?

KSL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz

São is definitely a low-information word. Yes yes, obviously Luiz’s mother was pleased with the promotion, but for our purposes, low-information. And KL traditional: 27 June 2009, 23 Oct 2009, 16 March 2010, 28 Sep 2010 (which also has Kh for Krohn), and 20 Jan 2013.

Is there any reason why Krohn isn't Kr?

None except being traditional. Though WK also has merit.

[Glenn E.]

Additional suggestions:

Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier. (This has been previously suggested by Phil.)

DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.

[Glenn E.]

Question: do you distinguish between Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos?

[jdaw1]

Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.

General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR = Croft Roeda (14 May 2010, 2 Mar 2012, 15 Oct 2012 (which has Cr70 and CR70 side-by-side), and 16 June 2014); and for MC = Cachão (2 Mar 2012 and 12 Oct 2013 (pages 284, 374, 378, 383, and others) ).

DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.

The only logical solution is Dw = Dow, and that because Glenn gets confused by Duff Gordon. Not going there.

Question: do you distinguish between Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos?

The abbreviations are meant to cope as well as concision allows with almost all relevant cases. Are there any years in which there are both Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos? No. Good.

Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or Mã? Perhaps I prefer the latter.

[DRT]

I would suggest avoiding the use of squiggles. (Calem, Pocas, Vale Meao). These abbreviations are intended to make life simple. Don't condemn your readers to a life sentence of searching for squiggles that don't obviously exist on their keyboard.

I agree with everything JDAW has said in response to other suggestions.

[jdaw1]

I would suggest avoiding the use of squiggles. (Calem, Pocas, Vale Meao). These abbreviations are intended to make life simple. Don't condemn your readers to a life sentence of searching for squiggles that don't obviously exist on their keyboard.

Sort-of. There should not be both Cá and Ca; there should not be both Pç and Pc; there should not be both Mã and Ma. That means that being limited to ASCII does not introduce ambiguity. But there’s no harm in the canonical version being correct.

I agree with everything JDAW has said in response to other suggestions.

As everybody should.

Outstanding question:

Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or Mã? Perhaps I prefer the latter.

[PhilW]

Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.

General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...

I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).

Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or Mã? Perhaps I prefer the latter.

VM for me based on previous (we already have GB which is not Graham Quinta do Bingo, so yes there is a minor lack of clarity between houses vs quintas unless we were to define a rule that all producer abbreviations must include 1+ capitals followed by 1 lower - but that would be so much change from what is in use and understood by all that I don't think we should make such a change. So yes, occasional ambiguity acceptable on grounds of practicality).

[jdaw1]

Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.

General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...

I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).

Good spot on the inconsistency, which I’d rather resolve by shortening TVVV to TVV. Am I alone?

[jdaw1]

List in first post of this thread.

[PhilW]

Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.

General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...

I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).

Good spot on the inconsistency, which I’d rather resolve by shortening TVVV to TVV. Am I alone?

I hope so. If you're not, there are a number of other places where you have favoured clarity over brevity; I'm hesitant to point them all out for fear of making the list less readable; Please just give in

[jdaw1]

I hope so. If you're not, there are a number of other places where you have favoured clarity over brevity; I'm hesitant to point them all out for fear of making the list less readable; Please just give in

Backward compatibility also desirable, so reluctant to fold on CR and MC. We haven’t used CC/CkC, nor ChA/ChAA, so am willing to concede on them.

[Glenn E.]

Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.

General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR = Croft Roeda (14 May 2010, 2 Mar 2012, 15 Oct 2012 (which has Cr70 and CR70 side-by-side), and 16 June 2014); and for MC = Cachão (2 Mar 2012 and 12 Oct 2013 (pages 284, 374, 378, 383, and others) ).

Precedent can be wrong, as it is in this case. The format should be consistent.

I did not list other oddities, judging them insufficient to break with precedent. (Kh instead of Kr, Kn, or even WK for one. The 'h' is silent, so its appearance in an abbreviation is... odd at best.) These, however, I feel should be corrected for both clarity and consistency.

DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.

The only logical solution is Dw = Dow, and that because Glenn gets confused by Duff Gordon. Not going there.

Agreed. As noted, I do not see a viable alternative. I mentioned it only in case it might spark an alternative from someone else.

Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or Mã? Perhaps I prefer the latter.

I agree with Derek that letters not displayed on the keyboard should not be used. That said, I prefer VM to Ma (or Mã) regardless. Do you refer to the Port as "Meão" alone? I do not. Thus VM over Mã.

Similarly, if you wish to shorten TVVV it should be shortened to VVV, not TVV, as that's how we refer to the Port. (I do not recommend shortening the official abbreviation, as doing so would break formatting consistency.)

Backward compatibility also desirable, so reluctant to fold on CR and MC. We haven’t used CC/CkC, nor ChA/ChAA, so am willing to concede on them.

Understood. In that case, I recommend a simple and easy solution: post a clarification/notice of change in the summary thread indicating the change. As the book is/will be a permanent record, the rules should be as standard and clear as possible upon publication. If truly desired, the old threads could be edited to conform.

[Glenn E.]

Unless I'm simply not seeing it, Porto Rocha is missing. Which I noticed because, technically, Sz is Porto Souza, not just Souza.

If Sz, then Rc (?). Reasoning: Avoid Ro vs RO confusion. Ra already claimed by Romaneira. Rc over Rch for brevity.

If PS, then PR.

[Glenn E.]

DR and KL now stand in contrast for me with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR. (And, to a lesser extent, ChA/ChAA.) I understand the argument that "Senora" and "Sao" are less relevant words, but the inconsistency now grates. We clearly use longer abbreviations, so why not DSR and KSL?

[Glenn E.]

Quinta de Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo is also missing. NNSC?

[jdaw1]

Precedent can be wrong, as it is in this case. The format should be consistent.

If that is the team theory — precedent binned — I’ll submit. Though something is wrong with the idea of Port people casting away traditional as if it were a mere commercial convenience to be replaced with a cost-saving measure.

(Kh instead of Kr, Kn, or even WK for one. The 'h' is silent, so its appearance in an abbreviation is... odd at best.)

The ‘h’ is silent, which is a good objection. WK?

VM over Mã.

Already agreed. Done.

Similarly, if you wish to shorten TVVV it should be shortened to VVV, not TVV, as that's how we refer to the Port. (I do not recommend shortening the official abbreviation, as doing so would break formatting consistency.)

I’ve submitted.

Backward compatibility also desirable, so reluctant to fold on CR and MC. We haven’t used CC/CkC, nor ChA/ChAA, so am willing to concede on them.

Understood. In that case, I recommend a simple and easy solution: post a clarification/notice of change in the summary thread indicating the change. As the book is/will be a permanent record, the rules should be as standard and clear as possible upon publication. If truly desired, the old threads could be edited to conform.

I really like the Cr/CR pair. Really like. Allow the elegance. This isn’t a programming language—perfect consistency isn’t going to happen.

I’ll tolerate the extra character in CC/CkC, nor ChA/ChAA, but not happily. It makes the placemats so much less elegant.

Unless I'm simply not seeing it, Porto Rocha is missing. Which I noticed because, technically, Sz is Porto Souza, not just Souza.

If Sz, then Rc (?). Reasoning: Avoid Ro vs RO confusion. Ra already claimed by Romaneira. Rc over Rch for brevity.

Omitted because almost never drunk in the UK. Added Rc = Porto Rocha; and updated Sz = Porto Souza.

DR and KL now stand in contrast for me with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR. (And, to a lesser extent, ChA/ChAA.) I understand the argument that "Senora" and "Sao" are less relevant words, but the inconsistency now grates. We clearly use longer abbreviations, so why not DSR and KSL?

This isn’t a programming language—perfect consistency isn’t going to happen. Some is sacrificed for brevity and elegance. Both O and OBV are listed, and the B and V are words with oomph. TSQ unavoidable and rare; TVVV should be shortened but I’m submitting to you; BBR very much the name of the firm. Would be happy with TF instead of TTF.

[PhilW]

Precedent can be wrong, as it is in this case. The format should be consistent.

If that is the team theory — precedent binned — I’ll submit. Though something is wrong with the idea of Port people casting away traditional as if it were a mere commercial convenience to be replaced with a cost-saving measure.

Tradition has merit, but so does deciding to change something for the right reason. Cost-saving is not the right analogy - we're the ones wanting more letters

I'm perfectly happy with Kh even if Kr might have seemed more natural, and would stay with tradition as well for M&S (vs MS) etc. I'm equally happy with TTF, TSR and others. Personally I prefer Kh (or Kr) to WK, since many bottles are primarily labelled Krohn (especially the VP stencils).

I really like the Cr/CR pair. Really like. Allow the elegance.

I can accept the odd exception, especially where well known and previously used. I personally prefer DSR and KSL to DR and DL, but would be willing to concede those too. I do think CkC better than CC though and ChAA has also been used previously; and would stay with TTF. As far as others above go, there are several cases where other options would have been possible, but I see insufficient reason for change to them.

[DRT]

Precedent can be wrong, as it is in this case. The format should be consistent.

If that is the team theory — precedent binned — I’ll submit. Though something is wrong with the idea of Port people casting away traditional as if it were a mere commercial convenience to be replaced with a cost-saving measure.

There is nothing wrong with this. Today we have decided that there is a new way of doing things. Tomorrow we will declare that way to be traditional, perhaps even "an ancient tradition". Isn't that how things are supposed to work in the Port industry?

On the shortening of single quinta abreviations: don't do it. The producers always refer to the quintas you are discussing here by their full names (often minus the "Quinta d*"). No one ever says Taylor's Feita.

[jdaw1]

I’ll fold on three more:
ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
DSR = Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira

With the dropping of small words, should Van Zeller be VZ or just Z?

[DRT]

I’ll fold on three more:
ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
DSR = Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira

With the dropping of small words, should Van Zeller be VZ or just Z?

It would be cruel to steal the V from him. I vote for VZ.

[PhilW]

Agree, would definitely stay with VZ.

[Glenn E.]

Much discussion. Hopefully I won't miss anything.

I still feel that we should be as consistent as possible, but will bend to the will of the team. This is our one real chance to update and standardize... once it is in print we're pretty much stuck with it. Not all that long ago Ck would have been C, but we made that change.

I prefer Kr (or, less so, Kn) to WK or Kh. I have many bottles of Krohn in which Wiese is only listed in the fine print. No one other than a Port geek would know that the firm's full name is Wiese & Krohn from those bottles.

Cr/CR doesn't look like a pair to me. It looks like Ports from two different producers - the first Croft, and the second being some unknown shipper with two words or possibly some new "C" shipper with an "R" quinta. But I will go with the group if Cr/CR is ultimately the decision.

I believe that I tend toward clarity over brevity, so am happy with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR as they are. To them I would add DSR and KSL. (DSR done, I now note.) To me, Senhora is at least as oomphy as Boa. And Sao means Saint, which seems pretty oomphy to me.

No, really, NNSC? I have a bottle of their 2009 LBV if you'd like a picture. (At least I think it's the 2009 LBV... but I have a bottle of something from them.)

VZ for me, too.

As previously noted, there are numerous other small things I would change that I have not bothered to bring up because they are not significant enough to warrant discussion. Kr over Kh was the most significant of those.

[Glenn E.]

NNSC2.jpg (104.96 KiB) Viewed 83371 times

[jdaw1]

I still feel that we should be as consistent as possible, but will bend to the will of the team. This is our one real chance to update and standardize... once it is in print we're pretty much stuck with it.

That is fair, and why this thread was re-awakened.

I prefer Kr (or, less so, Kn) to WK or Kh. I have many bottles of Krohn in which Wiese is only listed in the fine print. No one other than a Port geek would know that the firm's full name is Wiese & Krohn from those bottles.

Krohn is rarely seen in this sceptred isle. Precedent not so important. People please vote from: Kh, Kr, Kn, WK? Second preferences allowed. (And don’t dismiss WK on grounds of geekiness — port tastings are for geeks. C.f., BI = Borges & Irmão.)

Cr/CR doesn't look like a pair to me. It looks like Ports from two different producers - the first Croft, and the second being some unknown shipper with two words or possibly some new "C" shipper with an "R" quinta. But I will go with the group if Cr/CR is ultimately the decision.

Side-by-side, it’s a splendid pair.

I believe that I tend toward clarity over brevity, so am happy with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR as they are. To them I would add DSR …. (DSR done, I now note.) To me, Senhora is at least as oomphy as Boa. … VZ for me, too.

All these already agreed and done. No further discussion necessary.

and KSL. … And Sao means Saint, which seems pretty oomphy to me.

We disagree. If there’s a strongly-held consensus against me, I’ll fold, but it needs to be strong as KL plenty clear, and supported by brevity and precedent.

No, really, NNSC? I have a bottle of their 2009 LBV if you'd like a picture. (At least I think it's the 2009 LBV... but I have a bottle of something from them.)

This omission to be fixed, but ideally more concisely. Would Nv be acceptable? (Is there risk of confusion with Quinta da Fonte Nova (FN?) or with any of the Quinta do Noval possibilities — Noval Silval, Quinta do Noval Quinta do Marco, Quinta do Noval Silval (NS?), Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval?) But NNSC11 is just too long for where it needs to go.

As previously noted, there are numerous other small things I would change that I have not bothered to bring up because they are not significant enough to warrant discussion. Kr over Kh was the most significant of those.

Now is the chance. Or hold thy peace.


Also changing one name. GB = Gonzalez Byass rather than González Byass, as the Port was never labelled with the accent even though the modern Sherry company does use it.

[idj123]

VZ for me also. In terms of the others still to be determined, I go back to my first post regarding Krohn and agree with Glenn that Kr sounds more 'natural' than any of the other alternatives (I would also disagree regarding Krohn's lack of presence in the UK-it's been a regular fixture in two wine shops in Swansea alone!). I would still be inclined towards CrR rather than CR to avoid the unwary believing the latter is Cr. However, I will defer to Julian's obvious passion on this one. No fixed views on KL v KSL (less seen than the Kr).

[flash_uk]

I vote for CrR rather than CR. We don't have a shipper abbreviated as C, and if one were to come along, then CR could be confusing, whereas Cr will not. Also, isn't there some syntax precedence with:
Cá = Cálem
CáF = Cálem Quinta da Foz
Ch = Churchill
ChA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
Df = Delaforce
DfC = Delaforce Quinta da Corte
Fr = Ferreira
FrS = Ferreira Quinta do Seixo
FrP = Ferreira Quinta do Porto

I know CR has been used in the past, but Julian got it wrong back then

[PhilW]

People please vote from: Kh, Kr, Kn, WK? Second preferences allowed. (And don’t dismiss WK on grounds of geekiness — port tastings are for geeks. C.f., BI = Borges & Irmão.)

First preference Kr, second Kh (on grounds of previous use).

Would Nv be acceptable?

Fine with me.

n.b. Quinta da Roêda (note circumflex)

[Glenn E.]

I prefer Kr (or, less so, Kn) to WK or Kh. I have many bottles of Krohn in which Wiese is only listed in the fine print. No one other than a Port geek would know that the firm's full name is Wiese & Krohn from those bottles.

Krohn is rarely seen in this sceptred isle. Precedent not so important. People please vote from: Kh, Kr, Kn, WK? Second preferences allowed. (And don’t dismiss WK on grounds of geekiness — port tastings are for geeks. C.f., BI = Borges & Irmão.)

Kr first, Kn second. Kh and WK are equally last for me.

No, really, NNSC? I have a bottle of their 2009 LBV if you'd like a picture. (At least I think it's the 2009 LBV... but I have a bottle of something from them.)

This omission to be fixed, but ideally more concisely. Would Nv be acceptable? (Is there risk of confusion with Quinta da Fonte Nova (FN?) or with any of the Quinta do Noval possibilities — Noval Silval, Quinta do Noval Quinta do Marco, Quinta do Noval Silval (NS?), Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval?) But NNSC11 is just too long for where it needs to go.

Nv seems like it should work. My memory was telling me that there's already a different Quinta called Quinta Nova (or something similar), but I cannot find any such Quinta via Google. Further supporting Nv is the fact that the Quinta's own website is http://www.quintanova.com.

This should (hopefully) not cause confusion with Quinta do Noval, as that's been given 'N' as its abbreviation. Thus making NS appropriate for all variations of Silval (per the GM ruling), and NM appropriate for Noval Quinta do Marco. Polo.

As previously noted, there are numerous other small things I would change that I have not bothered to bring up because they are not significant enough to warrant discussion. Kr over Kh was the most significant of those.

Now is the chance. Or hold thy peace.

Duly noted. Holding, as the remaining quibbles aren't worth the discussion.

[jdaw1]

List above updated. I’ve conceded on most disagreements. Some features:

ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
…
Ck = Cockburn
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
…
Cr = Croft
CR = Croft Quinta da Roêda
…
GB = Gonzalez Byass
…
VM = Quinta de Vale Meão
Ms = Messias
MC = Messias Quinta do Cachão
…
Nv = Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo
…
NS = Quinta do Noval Silval
…
TSQ = Taylor Special Quinta
TTF = Taylor Quinta de Terra Feita
TV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas
TVVV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas Vinha Velha
…
VZ = Van Zeller

Later I will delete from this thread all non-up-to-date lists, to prevent confusion in those arriving from Google.

[flash_uk]

I hope so. If you're not, there are a number of other places where you have favoured clarity over brevity; I'm hesitant to point them all out for fear of making the list less readable; Please just give in

Backward compatibility also desirable, so reluctant to fold on CR and MC....

I'm not sure what gets damaged by sacrificing backward compatibility in the Croft and Messias cases. With hindsight, CrR would have been a more clear and consistent choice of abbreviation. A once in a lifetime opportunity presents itself now, to correct a previous misstep.