Port brand abbreviations
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
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Port brand abbreviations
We currently have a "TPF abbreviations" thread here which includes all sorts of abbreviations (people, sites, terms) and a smattering of some of the Port Houses. I suggest it would be an improvement to have a separate post in the reference section of this site providing a comprehensive list of TPF-approved abbreviations for Port Brands (for use on placemats, posts, any indexes etc). A separate post could then list other TPF abbreviations - perhaps also in the reference section, with the existing thread used for discussion of additions and changes as currently in the conversations area.
(edit: the above having been agreed, the determined list update on a regular basis is provided below).
The following abbreviations are used in the current tasting notes alphabetic index, as shown below.
A = J. H. Andresen
Ad = Adam
B = Burmester
BA = Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo
BBR = Berry's Own Selection (Berry Brothers & Rudd)
BI = Borges & Irmão
Bb = Broadbent
BN = Butler Nephew
Br = Barros
Bs = Bulas
BV = Barão de Vilar
Cá = Cálem
CáF = Cálem Quinta da Foz
Ch = Churchill
ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
ChF = Churchill Quinta do Fojo
ChG = Churchill Quinta da Gricha
ChR = Churchill Quinta do Rio
Ck = Cockburn
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
CM = Castro Mello
Cn = Constantino
Ct = Quinta da Côrte, post-Delaforce (but Delaforce Quinta da Côrte remains DfC)
CrR = Croft Quinta da Roêda
CrS = Croft Quinta da Roêda Sērikos
Cs = Quinta do Crasto
CSE = Casa de Santa Eufémia
Cr = Croft
Cz = Cruz
D = Dow
DB = Dow Quinta do Bomfim
DSR = Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
DG = Duff Gordon
Dl = Dalva
Dm = Dolamore
DM = Quinta Dona Matilde
Df = Delaforce
DfC = Delaforce Quinta da Côrte
Du = Duorum
DuCM = Duorum Castelo Melhor
Dv = Quinta da Devesa
Dx = Dixon (& Morgan)
Dz = Diez Hermanos
EV = Quinta da Eira Velha
F = Fonseca
FG = Fonseca Guimaraens
FP = Fonseca Quinta do Panascal
Fc = Fletcher
Fd = Feuerheerd
FH = Factory House
Fr = Ferreira
FrL = Ferreira Quinta da Leda
FrP = Ferreira Quinta do Porto
FrS = Ferreira Quinta do Seixo
Fs = Feist
GB = Gonzalez Byass
G = Graham
GL = Graham’s Quinta das Lages
GM = Graham’s (Quinta dos) Malvedos
GST = Graham’s The Stone Terraces
Gi = Gilbert
GC = Gould Campbell
Gd = Guedes
Gv = Quinta da Gaivosa
H = Hutcheson
Ho = Hooper
Hv = Harvey
In = Quinta do Infantado
Jv = Quinta do Javali
K = Kopke
KL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
Km = Kranemann
Kr = (Wiese &) Krohn
Lc = Quinta das Liceiras
Lm = Quinta das Lamelas
MG = M. Gonzalez
Mg = Morgan
Mk = Mackenzie
Ms = Messias
MsC = Messias Quinta do Cachão
Mt = Martha’s
My = Maynard
MyO = Maynard Organic
Mz = Martinez
Ni = Niepoort
NiB = Niepoort Bioma
NiS = Niepoort Secundum
NM = Noble & Murat
Nv = Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo
N = Quinta do Noval
NN = Quinta do Noval Nacional
NS = Quinta do Noval Silval
O = Offley
OBV = Offley Boa Vista
Os = Osborne
Pa = Quinta da Pacheca
PA = Quinta da Pedra Alta
Pç = Poças
Pe = Petre
Pg = Quinta do Pego
Pi = Pintas
Pm = Palmer
Pn = Piano by Carlos Alonso Douro Wines
Po = Quinta do Pessegueiro
Pr = Quinta da Prelada
Ps = Quinta do Passadouro
Pt = Quinta do Portal
Pt+ = Quinta do Portal+
PtM = Portal Quinta dos Muros
QH = Quarles Harris
QSE = Quinta de Santa Eufémia
Qv = Quevedo
QvA = Quevedo Quinta Vale d’Agodinho
Ra = Quinta da Romaneira
RCV = Real Companhia Velha
Rc = Porto Rocha
Ré = Réccua
Rm = Romariz
Rr = Quinta de Roriz
Rs = Quinta de la Rosa
RO = Royal Oporto
ROC = Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas
ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval
RP = Ramos Pinto
RPE = Ramos Pinto Quinta de Ervamoira
RV = Rebello Valente
RVn = Real Vinicola
Rz = Rozès
S = Sandeman
SV = Sandeman Vau
SS = Sandeman Quinta do Seixo
Sb = Quinta do Sibio
Sk = Skeffington
SJ = A Pinto dos Santos Júnior
SL = São Leonardo
SO = Quinta Seara D’Ordens
Sq = Quinta da Sequeira
SW = Smith Woodhouse
SWM = Smith Woodhouse Madalena
Sz = Porto Souza
T = Taylor
TSQ = Taylor Special Quinta
TTF = Taylor Quinta de Terra Feita
TV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas
TVVV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas Vinha Velha
Tc = Quinta das Tecedeiras
Td = Quinta do Tedo
TdS = Quinta do Tedo Savedra
TH = Tuke Holdsworth
Ud = O-Port-Unidade
V = Quinta do Vesuvio
VAl = Vista AlegreVC = Capela da Quinta do Vesuvio
VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria
VF = Quinta de Val da Figueira
VL = Quinta de Valle Longo
Vl = Quinta do Vallado
VM = Quinta de Vale Meão
Vr = Porto Valriz
VS = Vieira de Sousa
Vz = Quinta de Ventozelo
VZ = Van Zeller
W = Warre
WC = Warre Quinta da Cavadinha
For reference, since I would like to use these abbreviations elsewhere but also keep consistency, I am currently using [Unk] for Unknowns.
(edit: the above having been agreed, the determined list update on a regular basis is provided below).
The following abbreviations are used in the current tasting notes alphabetic index, as shown below.
A = J. H. Andresen
Ad = Adam
B = Burmester
BA = Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo
BBR = Berry's Own Selection (Berry Brothers & Rudd)
BI = Borges & Irmão
Bb = Broadbent
BN = Butler Nephew
Br = Barros
Bs = Bulas
BV = Barão de Vilar
Cá = Cálem
CáF = Cálem Quinta da Foz
Ch = Churchill
ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
ChF = Churchill Quinta do Fojo
ChG = Churchill Quinta da Gricha
ChR = Churchill Quinta do Rio
Ck = Cockburn
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
CM = Castro Mello
Cn = Constantino
Ct = Quinta da Côrte, post-Delaforce (but Delaforce Quinta da Côrte remains DfC)
CrR = Croft Quinta da Roêda
CrS = Croft Quinta da Roêda Sērikos
Cs = Quinta do Crasto
CSE = Casa de Santa Eufémia
Cr = Croft
Cz = Cruz
D = Dow
DB = Dow Quinta do Bomfim
DSR = Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
DG = Duff Gordon
Dl = Dalva
Dm = Dolamore
DM = Quinta Dona Matilde
Df = Delaforce
DfC = Delaforce Quinta da Côrte
Du = Duorum
DuCM = Duorum Castelo Melhor
Dv = Quinta da Devesa
Dx = Dixon (& Morgan)
Dz = Diez Hermanos
EV = Quinta da Eira Velha
F = Fonseca
FG = Fonseca Guimaraens
FP = Fonseca Quinta do Panascal
Fc = Fletcher
Fd = Feuerheerd
FH = Factory House
Fr = Ferreira
FrL = Ferreira Quinta da Leda
FrP = Ferreira Quinta do Porto
FrS = Ferreira Quinta do Seixo
Fs = Feist
GB = Gonzalez Byass
G = Graham
GL = Graham’s Quinta das Lages
GM = Graham’s (Quinta dos) Malvedos
GST = Graham’s The Stone Terraces
Gi = Gilbert
GC = Gould Campbell
Gd = Guedes
Gv = Quinta da Gaivosa
H = Hutcheson
Ho = Hooper
Hv = Harvey
In = Quinta do Infantado
Jv = Quinta do Javali
K = Kopke
KL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
Km = Kranemann
Kr = (Wiese &) Krohn
Lc = Quinta das Liceiras
Lm = Quinta das Lamelas
MG = M. Gonzalez
Mg = Morgan
Mk = Mackenzie
Ms = Messias
MsC = Messias Quinta do Cachão
Mt = Martha’s
My = Maynard
MyO = Maynard Organic
Mz = Martinez
Ni = Niepoort
NiB = Niepoort Bioma
NiS = Niepoort Secundum
NM = Noble & Murat
Nv = Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo
N = Quinta do Noval
NN = Quinta do Noval Nacional
NS = Quinta do Noval Silval
O = Offley
OBV = Offley Boa Vista
Os = Osborne
Pa = Quinta da Pacheca
PA = Quinta da Pedra Alta
Pç = Poças
Pe = Petre
Pg = Quinta do Pego
Pi = Pintas
Pm = Palmer
Pn = Piano by Carlos Alonso Douro Wines
Po = Quinta do Pessegueiro
Pr = Quinta da Prelada
Ps = Quinta do Passadouro
Pt = Quinta do Portal
Pt+ = Quinta do Portal+
PtM = Portal Quinta dos Muros
QH = Quarles Harris
QSE = Quinta de Santa Eufémia
Qv = Quevedo
QvA = Quevedo Quinta Vale d’Agodinho
Ra = Quinta da Romaneira
RCV = Real Companhia Velha
Rc = Porto Rocha
Ré = Réccua
Rm = Romariz
Rr = Quinta de Roriz
Rs = Quinta de la Rosa
RO = Royal Oporto
ROC = Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas
ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval
RP = Ramos Pinto
RPE = Ramos Pinto Quinta de Ervamoira
RV = Rebello Valente
RVn = Real Vinicola
Rz = Rozès
S = Sandeman
SV = Sandeman Vau
SS = Sandeman Quinta do Seixo
Sb = Quinta do Sibio
Sk = Skeffington
SJ = A Pinto dos Santos Júnior
SL = São Leonardo
SO = Quinta Seara D’Ordens
Sq = Quinta da Sequeira
SW = Smith Woodhouse
SWM = Smith Woodhouse Madalena
Sz = Porto Souza
T = Taylor
TSQ = Taylor Special Quinta
TTF = Taylor Quinta de Terra Feita
TV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas
TVVV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas Vinha Velha
Tc = Quinta das Tecedeiras
Td = Quinta do Tedo
TdS = Quinta do Tedo Savedra
TH = Tuke Holdsworth
Ud = O-Port-Unidade
V = Quinta do Vesuvio
VAl = Vista AlegreVC = Capela da Quinta do Vesuvio
VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria
VF = Quinta de Val da Figueira
VL = Quinta de Valle Longo
Vl = Quinta do Vallado
VM = Quinta de Vale Meão
Vr = Porto Valriz
VS = Vieira de Sousa
Vz = Quinta de Ventozelo
VZ = Van Zeller
W = Warre
WC = Warre Quinta da Cavadinha
For reference, since I would like to use these abbreviations elsewhere but also keep consistency, I am currently using [Unk] for Unknowns.
Last edited by PhilW on 09:45 Tue 10 Mar 2020, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Port House abbreviations
+1
One can find said abbreviations in the sorted indexes, but having a sticky post in the reference section would be very useful.
One can find said abbreviations in the sorted indexes, but having a sticky post in the reference section would be very useful.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
What we need is a pedant with time on his hands to make this happen.
Can anyone think of who that might be?
Can anyone think of who that might be?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
- djewesbury
- Graham’s 1970
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Port House abbreviations
I can hear you all shouting his name, and I'm in Italy.DRT wrote:What we need is a pedant with time on his hands to make this happen.
Can anyone think of who that might be?
Daniel J.
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3659
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- Location: Near Cambridge, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
If accepted as a sensible idea, I'd be happy to create the initial list based on current understanding; if insufficient pedantry I could then be corrected and abused as needed. I would be equally happy for another suitable individual to perform the task in the first place.DRT wrote:What we need is a pedant with time on his hands to make this happen.
Can anyone think of who that might be?
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3659
- Joined: 13:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
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Re: Port House abbreviations
The following abbreviations are used ...
<snip> - list moved to first post in thread.
<snip> - list moved to first post in thread.
Last edited by PhilW on 09:43 Tue 10 Mar 2020, edited 2 times in total.
- Alex Bridgeman
- Fonseca 1966
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Re: Port House abbreviations
I've been giving some thought the matter of abbreviations and how we cope with general declarations, lesser declarations, the growth of single quinta wines and also the changing of ownership of quintas.
It seems to me that the only way we could cope was to have a structure that essentially went:
Part 1; Part 2; vintage
Part 1 would identify the shipper, if a shipper was relevant.
Part 2 would identify the quinta, if the port was sourced from a single quinta (or vineyard)
The vintage could be abbreviated, but this could lead to confusion whether we were referring to Taylor 1811, 1911 or 2011.
On this basis you could quickly have a set of rules that allowed flexibility. Consider the example of Vargellas sourced wines:
In 1912, Taylor made a vintage port, a Vargellas single quinta port and a Vargellas single quinta port from the old vines (OK, so they didn't make the latter but just bear with me for the example).
The abbreviations could be:
T 1912
T Vg 1912
T VgVV 1912
This naming structure also allows flexibility so that prior to Taylor Fladgate owning Vargellas, you would have had "Fe Vg 1878", this being the Vargellas 1878 produced under the Ferreira ownership.
If at a point in the future Vargellas become independently owned, the wines would just be identified as Vg 2050.
This type of naming convention would allow a quick search to find all wines produced by a particular shipper or from a particular quinta, or a combination of the two.
It would create some headaches as there would have to be no duplications between quinta abbreviations and shipper abbreviations but it would also help with differentiating between some of the quirks like Quinta do Noval Silval (NoS) and Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval (No Si). A search on "No" would pull out both wines but still allow a more refined search to identify only one of the two.
It seems to me that the only way we could cope was to have a structure that essentially went:
Part 1; Part 2; vintage
Part 1 would identify the shipper, if a shipper was relevant.
Part 2 would identify the quinta, if the port was sourced from a single quinta (or vineyard)
The vintage could be abbreviated, but this could lead to confusion whether we were referring to Taylor 1811, 1911 or 2011.
On this basis you could quickly have a set of rules that allowed flexibility. Consider the example of Vargellas sourced wines:
In 1912, Taylor made a vintage port, a Vargellas single quinta port and a Vargellas single quinta port from the old vines (OK, so they didn't make the latter but just bear with me for the example).
The abbreviations could be:
T 1912
T Vg 1912
T VgVV 1912
This naming structure also allows flexibility so that prior to Taylor Fladgate owning Vargellas, you would have had "Fe Vg 1878", this being the Vargellas 1878 produced under the Ferreira ownership.
If at a point in the future Vargellas become independently owned, the wines would just be identified as Vg 2050.
This type of naming convention would allow a quick search to find all wines produced by a particular shipper or from a particular quinta, or a combination of the two.
It would create some headaches as there would have to be no duplications between quinta abbreviations and shipper abbreviations but it would also help with differentiating between some of the quirks like Quinta do Noval Silval (NoS) and Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval (No Si). A search on "No" would pull out both wines but still allow a more refined search to identify only one of the two.
Top Ports in 2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2025: Quevedo 1972 Colheita, b.2024. Just as good as Niepoort 1900!
2025: Quevedo 1972 Colheita, b.2024. Just as good as Niepoort 1900!
Re: Port House abbreviations
One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.
- Alex Bridgeman
- Fonseca 1966
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Re: Port House abbreviations
True - it is a balance between completeness, brevity and clarity.jdaw1 wrote:One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.
If we are just looking for a commonly understood abbreviation then TV96 mostly works.
If we're looking for something which in years to come can be searched and found and understood with clarity then TV96 will generally work, but will leave room for confusion - Taylor Vargellas 1896 or 1996?
Perhaps a quick solution is to abbreviate only where there is potential confusion? Thus TV96 would be TV1996 or TV1896 but FeV78 would be just that? Or perhaps abbreviate 20th century vintages and those where there is no confusion - TV96, TV1896 and FeV78
But life is too short for me to become too worried about this. If we develop a common standard, I will use it; otherwise I will use common sense.
Top Ports in 2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2025: Quevedo 1972 Colheita, b.2024. Just as good as Niepoort 1900!
2025: Quevedo 1972 Colheita, b.2024. Just as good as Niepoort 1900!
- djewesbury
- Graham’s 1970
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Re: Port House abbreviations
Also, we have to allow for user having a certain amount of brain at their disposal. Perhaps not the end of the world if they are presented with a choice between 1878 and 1978 on searching for a particular wine. They will have very little to do in order to find the notes on the tipple by which they are confronted at that moment. Of course, an infallible system that is ready for any eventuality is always good. Good luck with that one...jdaw1 wrote:One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.
Daniel J.
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
Re: Port House abbreviations
Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.
- djewesbury
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Re: Port House abbreviations
thoroughly sensible. +1jdaw1 wrote:Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.
Daniel J.
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
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Re: Port House abbreviations
Agree with all of AHB's post, plus the benefit of brevity/simplicity.
Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.jdaw1 wrote:Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.
Re: Port House abbreviations
So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.PhilW wrote:Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
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Re: Port House abbreviations
I would also accept ChA for brevity (thought ChAA seems more natural), but yes, very strong dislike for CAA.jdaw1 wrote:So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.PhilW wrote:Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.
Re: Port House abbreviations
Agreed. CAA would be a Cockburn property.PhilW wrote:I would also accept ChA for brevity (thought ChAA seems more natural), but yes, very strong dislike for CAA.jdaw1 wrote:So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.PhilW wrote:Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.
Glenn Elliott
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
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Re: Port House abbreviations
I would make the following changes:
Ck = Cockburn
VC = Vesuvio Capela
and would suggest:
ChAA Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
DSR Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
KSL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
Ck = Cockburn
VC = Vesuvio Capela
and would suggest:
ChAA Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
DSR Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
KSL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
Re: Port House abbreviations
Agree with Phil regarding the Ck and VC. Is there any reason why Krohn isn't Kr?
Re: Port House abbreviations
Oops, I started from an old list. Agreed.PhilW wrote:Ck = Cockburn
PhilW wrote:VC = Vesuvio Capela
Clarity versus pedantry. I’m happy with either. VC it is.idj123 wrote:Agree with Phil regarding the Ck and VC.
I prefer the brevity of ChA, which is still unique.PhilW wrote:ChAA Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
Senhora feels to me to be a low-information word, hence my preferring the DB-like DR. Other votes?PhilW wrote:DSR Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
São is definitely a low-information word. Yes yes, obviously Luiz’s mother was pleased with the promotion, but for our purposes, low-information. And KL traditional: 27 June 2009, 23 Oct 2009, 16 March 2010, 28 Sep 2010 (which also has Kh for Krohn), and 20 Jan 2013.PhilW wrote:KSL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
None except being traditional. Though WK also has merit.idj123 wrote:Is there any reason why Krohn isn't Kr?
Re: Port House abbreviations
Additional suggestions:
Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.
General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier. (This has been previously suggested by Phil.)
DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.
Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.
General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier. (This has been previously suggested by Phil.)
DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
Question: do you distinguish between Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos?
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR = Croft Roeda (14 May 2010, 2 Mar 2012, 15 Oct 2012 (which has Cr70 and CR70 side-by-side), and 16 June 2014); and for MC = Cachão (2 Mar 2012 and 12 Oct 2013 (pages 284, 374, 378, 383, and others) ).Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.
General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.
The only logical solution is Dw = Dow, and that because Glenn gets confused by Duff Gordon. Not going there.Glenn E. wrote:DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.
The abbreviations are meant to cope as well as concision allows with almost all relevant cases. Are there any years in which there are both Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos? No. Good.Glenn E. wrote:Question: do you distinguish between Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos?
Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or Mã? Perhaps I prefer the latter.
Re: Port House abbreviations
I would suggest avoiding the use of squiggles. (Calem, Pocas, Vale Meao). These abbreviations are intended to make life simple. Don't condemn your readers to a life sentence of searching for squiggles that don't obviously exist on their keyboard.
I agree with everything JDAW has said in response to other suggestions.
I agree with everything JDAW has said in response to other suggestions.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
Re: Port House abbreviations
Sort-of. There should not be both Cá and Ca; there should not be both Pç and Pc; there should not be both Mã and Ma. That means that being limited to ASCII does not introduce ambiguity. But there’s no harm in the canonical version being correct.DRT wrote:I would suggest avoiding the use of squiggles. (Calem, Pocas, Vale Meao). These abbreviations are intended to make life simple. Don't condemn your readers to a life sentence of searching for squiggles that don't obviously exist on their keyboard.
As everybody should.DRT wrote:I agree with everything JDAW has said in response to other suggestions.
Outstanding question:
jdaw1 wrote:Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or Mã? Perhaps I prefer the latter.
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Re: Port House abbreviations
I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).jdaw1 wrote:General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.
General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.
VM for me based on previous (we already have GB which is not Graham Quinta do Bingo, so yes there is a minor lack of clarity between houses vs quintas unless we were to define a rule that all producer abbreviations must include 1+ capitals followed by 1 lower - but that would be so much change from what is in use and understood by all that I don't think we should make such a change. So yes, occasional ambiguity acceptable on grounds of practicality).jdaw1 wrote:Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or Mã? Perhaps I prefer the latter.
Re: Port House abbreviations
Good spot on the inconsistency, which I’d rather resolve by shortening TVVV to TVV. Am I alone?PhilW wrote:I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).jdaw1 wrote:General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.
General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
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Re: Port House abbreviations
I hope so. If you're not, there are a number of other places where you have favoured clarity over brevity; I'm hesitant to point them all out for fear of making the list less readable; Please just give injdaw1 wrote:Good spot on the inconsistency, which I’d rather resolve by shortening TVVV to TVV. Am I alone?PhilW wrote:I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).jdaw1 wrote:General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.
General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.

Re: Port House abbreviations
Backward compatibility also desirable, so reluctant to fold on CR and MC. We haven’t used CC/CkC, nor ChA/ChAA, so am willing to concede on them.PhilW wrote:I hope so. If you're not, there are a number of other places where you have favoured clarity over brevity; I'm hesitant to point them all out for fear of making the list less readable; Please just give in
Re: Port House abbreviations
Precedent can be wrong, as it is in this case. The format should be consistent.jdaw1 wrote:General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR = Croft Roeda (14 May 2010, 2 Mar 2012, 15 Oct 2012 (which has Cr70 and CR70 side-by-side), and 16 June 2014); and for MC = Cachão (2 Mar 2012 and 12 Oct 2013 (pages 284, 374, 378, 383, and others) ).Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.
General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.
I did not list other oddities, judging them insufficient to break with precedent. (Kh instead of Kr, Kn, or even WK for one. The 'h' is silent, so its appearance in an abbreviation is... odd at best.) These, however, I feel should be corrected for both clarity and consistency.
Agreed. As noted, I do not see a viable alternative. I mentioned it only in case it might spark an alternative from someone else.jdaw1 wrote:The only logical solution is Dw = Dow, and that because Glenn gets confused by Duff Gordon. Not going there.Glenn E. wrote:DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.
I agree with Derek that letters not displayed on the keyboard should not be used. That said, I prefer VM to Ma (or Mã) regardless. Do you refer to the Port as "Meão" alone? I do not. Thus VM over Mã.jdaw1 wrote:Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or Mã? Perhaps I prefer the latter.
Similarly, if you wish to shorten TVVV it should be shortened to VVV, not TVV, as that's how we refer to the Port. (I do not recommend shortening the official abbreviation, as doing so would break formatting consistency.)
Understood. In that case, I recommend a simple and easy solution: post a clarification/notice of change in the summary thread indicating the change. As the book is/will be a permanent record, the rules should be as standard and clear as possible upon publication. If truly desired, the old threads could be edited to conform.jdaw1 wrote:Backward compatibility also desirable, so reluctant to fold on CR and MC. We haven’t used CC/CkC, nor ChA/ChAA, so am willing to concede on them.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
Unless I'm simply not seeing it, Porto Rocha is missing. Which I noticed because, technically, Sz is Porto Souza, not just Souza.
If Sz, then Rc (?). Reasoning: Avoid Ro vs RO confusion. Ra already claimed by Romaneira. Rc over Rch for brevity.
If PS, then PR.
If Sz, then Rc (?). Reasoning: Avoid Ro vs RO confusion. Ra already claimed by Romaneira. Rc over Rch for brevity.
If PS, then PR.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
DR and KL now stand in contrast for me with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR. (And, to a lesser extent, ChA/ChAA.) I understand the argument that "Senora" and "Sao" are less relevant words, but the inconsistency now grates. We clearly use longer abbreviations, so why not DSR and KSL?
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
Quinta de Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo is also missing. NNSC?


Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
If that is the team theory — precedent binned — I’ll submit. Though something is wrong with the idea of Port people casting away traditional as if it were a mere commercial convenience to be replaced with a cost-saving measure.Glenn E. wrote:Precedent can be wrong, as it is in this case. The format should be consistent.
The ‘h’ is silent, which is a good objection. WK?Glenn E. wrote:(Kh instead of Kr, Kn, or even WK for one. The 'h' is silent, so its appearance in an abbreviation is... odd at best.)
Already agreed. Done.Glenn E. wrote:VM over Mã.
I’ve submitted.Glenn E. wrote:Similarly, if you wish to shorten TVVV it should be shortened to VVV, not TVV, as that's how we refer to the Port. (I do not recommend shortening the official abbreviation, as doing so would break formatting consistency.)
I really like the Cr/CR pair. Really like. Allow the elegance. This isn’t a programming language—perfect consistency isn’t going to happen.Glenn E. wrote:Understood. In that case, I recommend a simple and easy solution: post a clarification/notice of change in the summary thread indicating the change. As the book is/will be a permanent record, the rules should be as standard and clear as possible upon publication. If truly desired, the old threads could be edited to conform.jdaw1 wrote:Backward compatibility also desirable, so reluctant to fold on CR and MC. We haven’t used CC/CkC, nor ChA/ChAA, so am willing to concede on them.
I’ll tolerate the extra character in CC/CkC, nor ChA/ChAA, but not happily. It makes the placemats so much less elegant.
Omitted because almost never drunk in the UK. Added Rc = Porto Rocha; and updated Sz = Porto Souza.Glenn E. wrote:Unless I'm simply not seeing it, Porto Rocha is missing. Which I noticed because, technically, Sz is Porto Souza, not just Souza.
If Sz, then Rc (?). Reasoning: Avoid Ro vs RO confusion. Ra already claimed by Romaneira. Rc over Rch for brevity.
This isn’t a programming language—perfect consistency isn’t going to happen. Some is sacrificed for brevity and elegance. Both O and OBV are listed, and the B and V are words with oomph. TSQ unavoidable and rare; TVVV should be shortened but I’m submitting to you; BBR very much the name of the firm. Would be happy with TF instead of TTF.Glenn E. wrote:DR and KL now stand in contrast for me with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR. (And, to a lesser extent, ChA/ChAA.) I understand the argument that "Senora" and "Sao" are less relevant words, but the inconsistency now grates. We clearly use longer abbreviations, so why not DSR and KSL?
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Re: Port House abbreviations
Tradition has merit, but so does deciding to change something for the right reason. Cost-saving is not the right analogy - we're the ones wanting more lettersjdaw1 wrote:If that is the team theory — precedent binned — I’ll submit. Though something is wrong with the idea of Port people casting away traditional as if it were a mere commercial convenience to be replaced with a cost-saving measure.Glenn E. wrote:Precedent can be wrong, as it is in this case. The format should be consistent.

I'm perfectly happy with Kh even if Kr might have seemed more natural, and would stay with tradition as well for M&S (vs MS) etc. I'm equally happy with TTF, TSR and others. Personally I prefer Kh (or Kr) to WK, since many bottles are primarily labelled Krohn (especially the VP stencils).
I can accept the odd exception, especially where well known and previously used. I personally prefer DSR and KSL to DR and DL, but would be willing to concede those too. I do think CkC better than CC though and ChAA has also been used previously; and would stay with TTF. As far as others above go, there are several cases where other options would have been possible, but I see insufficient reason for change to them.jdaw1 wrote:I really like the Cr/CR pair. Really like. Allow the elegance.
Re: Port House abbreviations
There is nothing wrong with this. Today we have decided that there is a new way of doing things. Tomorrow we will declare that way to be traditional, perhaps even "an ancient tradition". Isn't that how things are supposed to work in the Port industry?jdaw1 wrote:If that is the team theory — precedent binned — I’ll submit. Though something is wrong with the idea of Port people casting away traditional as if it were a mere commercial convenience to be replaced with a cost-saving measure.Glenn E. wrote:Precedent can be wrong, as it is in this case. The format should be consistent.
On the shortening of single quinta abreviations: don't do it. The producers always refer to the quintas you are discussing here by their full names (often minus the "Quinta d*"). No one ever says Taylor's Feita.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
Re: Port House abbreviations
I’ll fold on three more:
ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
DSR = Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
With the dropping of small words, should Van Zeller be VZ or just Z?
ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
DSR = Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
With the dropping of small words, should Van Zeller be VZ or just Z?
Re: Port House abbreviations
It would be cruel to steal the V from him. I vote for VZ.jdaw1 wrote:I’ll fold on three more:
ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
DSR = Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
With the dropping of small words, should Van Zeller be VZ or just Z?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
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Re: Port House abbreviations
Agree, would definitely stay with VZ.
Re: Port House abbreviations
Much discussion. Hopefully I won't miss anything.
I still feel that we should be as consistent as possible, but will bend to the will of the team. This is our one real chance to update and standardize... once it is in print we're pretty much stuck with it. Not all that long ago Ck would have been C, but we made that change.
I prefer Kr (or, less so, Kn) to WK or Kh. I have many bottles of Krohn in which Wiese is only listed in the fine print. No one other than a Port geek would know that the firm's full name is Wiese & Krohn from those bottles.
Cr/CR doesn't look like a pair to me. It looks like Ports from two different producers - the first Croft, and the second being some unknown shipper with two words or possibly some new "C" shipper with an "R" quinta. But I will go with the group if Cr/CR is ultimately the decision.
I believe that I tend toward clarity over brevity, so am happy with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR as they are. To them I would add DSR and KSL. (DSR done, I now note.) To me, Senhora is at least as oomphy as Boa. And Sao means Saint, which seems pretty oomphy to me.
No, really, NNSC? I have a bottle of their 2009 LBV if you'd like a picture. (At least I think it's the 2009 LBV... but I have a bottle of something from them.)
VZ for me, too.
As previously noted, there are numerous other small things I would change that I have not bothered to bring up because they are not significant enough to warrant discussion. Kr over Kh was the most significant of those.
I still feel that we should be as consistent as possible, but will bend to the will of the team. This is our one real chance to update and standardize... once it is in print we're pretty much stuck with it. Not all that long ago Ck would have been C, but we made that change.
I prefer Kr (or, less so, Kn) to WK or Kh. I have many bottles of Krohn in which Wiese is only listed in the fine print. No one other than a Port geek would know that the firm's full name is Wiese & Krohn from those bottles.
Cr/CR doesn't look like a pair to me. It looks like Ports from two different producers - the first Croft, and the second being some unknown shipper with two words or possibly some new "C" shipper with an "R" quinta. But I will go with the group if Cr/CR is ultimately the decision.
I believe that I tend toward clarity over brevity, so am happy with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR as they are. To them I would add DSR and KSL. (DSR done, I now note.) To me, Senhora is at least as oomphy as Boa. And Sao means Saint, which seems pretty oomphy to me.
No, really, NNSC? I have a bottle of their 2009 LBV if you'd like a picture. (At least I think it's the 2009 LBV... but I have a bottle of something from them.)
VZ for me, too.
As previously noted, there are numerous other small things I would change that I have not bothered to bring up because they are not significant enough to warrant discussion. Kr over Kh was the most significant of those.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
That is fair, and why this thread was re-awakened.Glenn E. wrote:I still feel that we should be as consistent as possible, but will bend to the will of the team. This is our one real chance to update and standardize... once it is in print we're pretty much stuck with it.
Krohn is rarely seen in this sceptred isle. Precedent not so important. People please vote from: Kh, Kr, Kn, WK? Second preferences allowed. (And don’t dismiss WK on grounds of geekiness — port tastings are for geeks. C.f., BI = Borges & Irmão.)Glenn E. wrote:I prefer Kr (or, less so, Kn) to WK or Kh. I have many bottles of Krohn in which Wiese is only listed in the fine print. No one other than a Port geek would know that the firm's full name is Wiese & Krohn from those bottles.
Side-by-side, it’s a splendid pair.Glenn E. wrote:Cr/CR doesn't look like a pair to me. It looks like Ports from two different producers - the first Croft, and the second being some unknown shipper with two words or possibly some new "C" shipper with an "R" quinta. But I will go with the group if Cr/CR is ultimately the decision.
All these already agreed and done. No further discussion necessary.Glenn E. wrote:I believe that I tend toward clarity over brevity, so am happy with TTF, TSQ, TVVV, OBV, and BBR as they are. To them I would add DSR …. (DSR done, I now note.) To me, Senhora is at least as oomphy as Boa. … VZ for me, too.
We disagree. If there’s a strongly-held consensus against me, I’ll fold, but it needs to be strong as KL plenty clear, and supported by brevity and precedent.Glenn E. wrote:and KSL. … And Sao means Saint, which seems pretty oomphy to me.
This omission to be fixed, but ideally more concisely. Would Nv be acceptable? (Is there risk of confusion with Quinta da Fonte Nova (FN?) or with any of the Quinta do Noval possibilities — Noval Silval, Quinta do Noval Quinta do Marco, Quinta do Noval Silval (NS?), Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval?) But NNSC11 is just too long for where it needs to go.Glenn E. wrote:No, really, NNSC? I have a bottle of their 2009 LBV if you'd like a picture. (At least I think it's the 2009 LBV... but I have a bottle of something from them.)
Now is the chance. Or hold thy peace.Glenn E. wrote:As previously noted, there are numerous other small things I would change that I have not bothered to bring up because they are not significant enough to warrant discussion. Kr over Kh was the most significant of those.
Also changing one name. GB = Gonzalez Byass rather than González Byass, as the Port was never labelled with the accent even though the modern Sherry company does use it.
Re: Port House abbreviations
VZ for me also. In terms of the others still to be determined, I go back to my first post regarding Krohn and agree with Glenn that Kr sounds more 'natural' than any of the other alternatives (I would also disagree regarding Krohn's lack of presence in the UK-it's been a regular fixture in two wine shops in Swansea alone!). I would still be inclined towards CrR rather than CR to avoid the unwary believing the latter is Cr. However, I will defer to Julian's obvious passion on this one. No fixed views on KL v KSL (less seen than the Kr).
Re: Port House abbreviations
I vote for CrR rather than CR. We don't have a shipper abbreviated as C, and if one were to come along, then CR could be confusing, whereas Cr will not. Also, isn't there some syntax precedence with:
Cá = Cálem
CáF = Cálem Quinta da Foz
Ch = Churchill
ChA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
Df = Delaforce
DfC = Delaforce Quinta da Corte
Fr = Ferreira
FrS = Ferreira Quinta do Seixo
FrP = Ferreira Quinta do Porto
I know CR has been used in the past, but Julian got it wrong back then
Cá = Cálem
CáF = Cálem Quinta da Foz
Ch = Churchill
ChA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
Df = Delaforce
DfC = Delaforce Quinta da Corte
Fr = Ferreira
FrS = Ferreira Quinta do Seixo
FrP = Ferreira Quinta do Porto
I know CR has been used in the past, but Julian got it wrong back then

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Re: Port House abbreviations
First preference Kr, second Kh (on grounds of previous use).jdaw1 wrote:People please vote from: Kh, Kr, Kn, WK? Second preferences allowed. (And don’t dismiss WK on grounds of geekiness — port tastings are for geeks. C.f., BI = Borges & Irmão.)
Fine with me.jdaw1 wrote:Would Nv be acceptable?
n.b. Quinta da Roêda (note circumflex)
Re: Port House abbreviations
Kr first, Kn second. Kh and WK are equally last for me.jdaw1 wrote:Krohn is rarely seen in this sceptred isle. Precedent not so important. People please vote from: Kh, Kr, Kn, WK? Second preferences allowed. (And don’t dismiss WK on grounds of geekiness — port tastings are for geeks. C.f., BI = Borges & Irmão.)Glenn E. wrote:I prefer Kr (or, less so, Kn) to WK or Kh. I have many bottles of Krohn in which Wiese is only listed in the fine print. No one other than a Port geek would know that the firm's full name is Wiese & Krohn from those bottles.
Nv seems like it should work. My memory was telling me that there's already a different Quinta called Quinta Nova (or something similar), but I cannot find any such Quinta via Google. Further supporting Nv is the fact that the Quinta's own website is http://www.quintanova.com.jdaw1 wrote:This omission to be fixed, but ideally more concisely. Would Nv be acceptable? (Is there risk of confusion with Quinta da Fonte Nova (FN?) or with any of the Quinta do Noval possibilities — Noval Silval, Quinta do Noval Quinta do Marco, Quinta do Noval Silval (NS?), Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval?) But NNSC11 is just too long for where it needs to go.Glenn E. wrote:No, really, NNSC? I have a bottle of their 2009 LBV if you'd like a picture. (At least I think it's the 2009 LBV... but I have a bottle of something from them.)
This should (hopefully) not cause confusion with Quinta do Noval, as that's been given 'N' as its abbreviation. Thus making NS appropriate for all variations of Silval (per the GM ruling), and NM appropriate for Noval Quinta do Marco. Polo.
Duly noted. Holding, as the remaining quibbles aren't worth the discussion.jdaw1 wrote:Now is the chance. Or hold thy peace.Glenn E. wrote:As previously noted, there are numerous other small things I would change that I have not bothered to bring up because they are not significant enough to warrant discussion. Kr over Kh was the most significant of those.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
List above updated. I’ve conceded on most disagreements. Some features:
Later I will delete from this thread all non-up-to-date lists, to prevent confusion in those arriving from Google.jdaw1 wrote:ChAA = Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
…
Ck = Cockburn
CkC = Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
…
Cr = Croft
CR = Croft Quinta da Roêda
…
GB = Gonzalez Byass
…
VM = Quinta de Vale Meão
Ms = Messias
MC = Messias Quinta do Cachão
…
Nv = Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo
…
NS = Quinta do Noval Silval
…
TSQ = Taylor Special Quinta
TTF = Taylor Quinta de Terra Feita
TV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas
TVVV = Taylor Quinta de Vargellas Vinha Velha
…
VZ = Van Zeller
Re: Port House abbreviations
I'm not sure what gets damaged by sacrificing backward compatibility in the Croft and Messias cases. With hindsight, CrR would have been a more clear and consistent choice of abbreviation. A once in a lifetime opportunity presents itself now, to correct a previous misstep.jdaw1 wrote:Backward compatibility also desirable, so reluctant to fold on CR and MC....PhilW wrote:I hope so. If you're not, there are a number of other places where you have favoured clarity over brevity; I'm hesitant to point them all out for fear of making the list less readable; Please just give in