The colour of old Martinez

[LGTrotter]

I made a brief note on the thread of the review of The 58 tasting about the colour of the Martinez but it was swallowed by comments on the evening (fair enough, that is the title of the thread) so I thought I would post something here.

I was thinking that the only Martinez 55 I had was also notably dark. Having had a look through the tasting notes of Martinez between 1927 and 1960 there do seem to be a lot of them that make reference to them being very dark in colour. But my experience of the 63 is that is quite washed out as are the other later vintages I have tried (70, 82 and 85).

I had a thought that if it was the 'second wine' of Cockburn at this time perhaps this might account for it. The darker wines going into Martinez to preserve Cockburns medium character. On reflection this seems unlikely.

Is this just one of those things or are there other potential explanations?

[LGTrotter]

For example the 1927;' Very dark: as deep in colour as the Taylor 1955. Quite gentle on the nose, perhaps a touch muddy. In the mouth, a little fruit and some astringency.'
And the 1948; 'Mz48 (mine): dark red, 70% opaque. Faint nose. taste rich, some heat, very long. Really excellent. Some leather and smoked. Really liked.'
And the 1955; 'The 1955 Martinez was surprisingly youthful in the glass, it looked like it was 30 years younger!'
Also; 'Served blind. Deep red colour, clear centre, pale orange on the rim.'
There are more in a similar vein for the 55.
And the 1960; 'Almost as dark in colour as the Warre 1960 shown alongside'.

The 1960 note is less convincing but you get the picture.

[CaliforniaBrad]

The sole time I've had the '55, it was very youthful and dark, a fantastic bottle of wine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DRT]

Is this just one of those things or are there other potential explanations?

Yes. Elderberries.

I might be wrong but I do believe I have seen and tasted enough vintage ports to be able to identify what is "normal" and what is "unusual" in the appearance of mature VP. There are some VPs that have a darker than average appearance but have a rich, golden hue that tells me they are a product of a great wine that is not yet fully mature. But there are wines that are unnaturally dark but do not possess the richness and subtlety of colour of a well-aged wine. They tend to look like treacle.

I firmly believe that a great deal of skulduggery occurred in the lagars until around 20/30 years ago until technology and regulatory scrutiny removed the possibility of foul play.

If you see a wine from that era that looks too good to believe it is probably too good to believe.

[Andy Velebil]

I firmly believe that a great deal of skulduggery occurred in the lagars until around 20/30 years ago until technology and regulatory scrutiny removed the possibility of foul play.

I believe you mean...reduced

Adulteration of Port still does happen. It just gets caught more by the larger companies when the incoming outside-sourced-lots are tested.

[LGTrotter]

Yes. Elderberries.

I think I read that elderberries looked good and dark when the wine was young but went brown and separated out as they aged. No idea where I came across this, or if there is any truth in it.

[CaliforniaBrad]

Yes. Elderberries.

I think I read that elderberries looked good and dark when the wine was young but went brown and separated out as they aged. No idea where I came across this, or if there is any truth in it.

I recall hearing the same, perhaps from Andy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DRT]

Yes. Elderberries.

I think I read that elderberries looked good and dark when the wine was young but went brown and separated out as they aged. No idea where I came across this, or if there is any truth in it.

I agree with the colour part of that but haven't seen evidence of it having "separated out". I get very suspicious when I see completely opaque VP with a dark brownish tinge to the colour (think molasses or treacle). There are quite a few well known examples from big producers that are 30+ years old that have that appearance and a reputation for being extraordinarily "youthful" in appearance. There are also some much older, notably a couple of very famous 1931s.

[jdaw1]

I get very suspicious when I see completely opaque VP with a dark brownish tinge to the colour (think molasses or treacle). There are quite a few well known examples from big producers that are 30+ years old that have that appearance and a reputation for being extraordinarily "youthful" in appearance. There are also some much older, notably a couple of very famous 1931s.

And 1927 Niepoort, which was all-round fabulous.

[djewesbury]

I have a demijohn of elderberry wine in the kitchen which must be 15 years old. I will go and check its colour and 'separation'.

[LGTrotter]

I thought that the separation occurred between the grape juice and the elderberry juice. There are grape varieties in madeira wine which are immiscible. I wonder if that is what I'm thinking of.

[djewesbury]

I thought that the separation occurred between the grape juice and the elderberry juice. There are grape varieties in madeira wine which are immiscible. I wonder if that is what I'm thinking of.

Nice word. There is a high-falutin post-Marxist feminist deconstructionist post-colonial word that means something similar, way back in the day when I was writing my PhD I used to use it all the time, can't remember what it is now, the old bonce not being quite what it was. It isn't catachrestic, or incommensurate, though those were favourites too.
Have I still not stood up and gone to check this elderberry juice?

[djewesbury]

Ten-Year-Old Elderberry Wine

photo-22.JPG (38.89 KiB) Viewed 8169 times

The label on the demijohn says "12/04". The bung opened with a pop. This has not been disturbed for a very long time.
The colour, as can be seen above, is a very pale light orange, tinged perhaps with salmon. None of the elderberry purple has remained; I imagine that's all in the bottom of the demijohn.
On the nose I'm getting a very full, rich, concentrated, reductive range of tones. I'm reminded of southern French fortified wines; Rivesaltes, or Maury, maybe, and also even a hint of Madeira. It's warm, with wet oak, and it's also very spiritous. Honey. Figs, nuts. I would have sworn this to be a fortified wine of some sort by its nose.
The mouth though is very strange. It begins thin, light, and acid, and then turns very dry indeed. It's rather bitter (though not necessarily in a horrendous way) or even a little sour. It's a bit reminiscent of the hoppy dryness on a very astringent IPA. The finish is of medium length and actually quite impressive; a subtle toasted nut note (or is it toasted toast?), a clean dry sensation on the tongue, this is by no means disgusting.

EDIT: 20 mins or so later, my mouth is still dry and there is the ghost of bitter cherries.

[LGTrotter]

Thank you Daniel. Is this the end of the elderberry adulteration theory? So what do they adulterate it with?

Also I rather liked the 55 Martinez. If that is adulterated then adulterate away, say I.

[Andy Velebil]

Yes. Elderberries.

I think I read that elderberries looked good and dark when the wine was young but went brown and separated out as they aged. No idea where I came across this, or if there is any truth in it.

I recall hearing the same, perhaps from Andy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DRT]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

[LGTrotter]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

I would be keen to try a port which is known to have elderberries in it. Are there any known, definitively to have them in? Any producers put their hands up to this, even off the record?

[Andy Velebil]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

Brownish tinge as you say.

A certain CEO told us it had elderberries during a certain large FG tasting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RonnieRoots]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

I would be keen to try a port which is known to have elderberries in it. Are there any known, definitively to have them in? Any producers put their hands up to this, even off the record?

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

[DRT]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

Brownish tinge as you say.

A certain CEO told us it had elderberries during a certain large FG tasting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As did a wine maker and a prominent Port author.

It's lovely juice.

[Andy Velebil]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

Brownish tinge as you say.

A certain CEO told us it had elderberries during a certain large FG tasting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As did a wine maker and a prominent Port author.

It's lovely juice.

Yes it is. But it definitely stands out with flavors more toward an old PX Sherry. Lol.

Ronnie, I never say no to drinking Old Port


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DRT]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

Or, some of us could pop over to Amsterdam and taste it for you?

[LGTrotter]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

And there isn't any on UK wine searcher.

[jdaw1]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

Or, some of us could pop over to Amsterdam and taste it for you?

Case tasting of FG76: splendid plan. Thank you Ronnie.

[LGTrotter]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

Or, some of us could pop over to Amsterdam and taste it for you?

Case tasting of FG76: splendid plan. Thank you Ronnie.

+ weekend in the Dam.

[DRT]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

Or, some of us could pop over to Amsterdam and taste it for you?

Case tasting of FG76: splendid plan. Thank you Ronnie.

+ weekend in the Dam.

This is shaping up nicely. Now then, where did I put Stevie's mobile number - I'm sure he has a key to Ronnie's cellar...

[LGTrotter]

Excited as I am by the prospect of standing solemnly before 'the Nightwatch' with the crew may I return to the question.

Why are the Martinez of the period 27 to 60 so dark?

What ports are available that are known to have elderberries in them?

[Alex Bridgeman]

What ports are available that are known to have elderberries in them?

We suspect but have no proof that the Dow 1980 and Fonseca Guimaraens 1976 both contain baga. There may be others, but these escape me for now.

[Andy Velebil]

What ports are available that are known to have elderberries in them?

We suspect but have no proof that the Dow 1980 and Fonseca Guimaraens 1976 both contain baga. There may be others, but these escape me for now.

I feel it's important to add some important background info related to this, so as not to give the appearance that certain companies willfully added something which wasn't supposed to be there into their Port.

Back in the older days, as is now, finished Port was bought from other smaller farmers/producers. Sometimes things that shouldn't be there got past quality control and ended up in the finished product. Back then there was no easy or cheap way to test for it. Nowdays, for the larger companies at least, these purchased lots are tested when they arrive at the winery to ensure this no longer happens.

[LGTrotter]

I am sure this is true, I do not mean to start random accusations, but I am genuinely curious to see what it's like. I have probably tried some already, albeit unwittingly.

[DRT]

Kopke and Kopke Sao Luiz from the 1970s display the same characteristics as the two referred to above. JDAW has some

[LGTrotter]

baga

OK, showing my ignorance here, what's baga?

[Glenn E.]

baga

OK, showing my ignorance here, what's baga?

Elderberry

[WineLoverPT]

baga

OK, showing my ignorance here, what's baga?

A variety of grape. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baga_%28grape%29)

[LGTrotter]

Does Baga=Jeripoga? I was under the impression that it was more than just elderberry juice they jazzed port up with. I thought it was a soup of all sorts of heady ingredients.

[WineLoverPT]

Does Baga=Jeripoga? I was under the impression that it was more than just elderberry juice they jazzed port up with. I thought it was a soup of all sorts of heady ingredients.

No - Baga's just a grape variety - much grown in Bairrada in Portugal.
Jeropiga is a sweet, alcoholic drink made by adding aguardente to very young fermenting grape juice - you can buy it in the shops, but you're more likely to be offered it in someone's home.

[Glenn E.]

Baga just means berry. It's slang for a grape variety (it goes by MANY names), but it is also slang for elderberry juice. "Baga de sabugueiro" is the berry of the elderberry bush (it's only redundant in English).

[Andy Velebil]

baga

OK, showing my ignorance here, what's baga?

Slang, meaning it contains something that shouldn't be in Port. Usually in reference to the elderberry but also other things such as plum juice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DRT]

I think jeropiga (as in the hooch that is used in the Douro) is described in Mayson's book.

There is also a retail product named Jeropiga, which I think is what WineLoverPT is referring to.

[LGTrotter]

I think I am more interested in the historical meaning of these words, and their colloquial use.

[DRT]

I think I am more interested in the historical meaning of these words, and their colloquial use.

In the Douro I think historical and colloquial use are one and the same. Baga = purple stuff that isn't made from grapes. Jeropiga = a brew made from concentrated grape juice and sometimes other stuff that is used to "correct" young wines.

Uses of these words outside the Douro/port trade appear to have different meanings.

[djewesbury]

There's a fair amount of misinformation here. A geropiga (sic) is a very sweet port made at fermentation time in small batches to add later when blending, if needed for balance.
This be the verse.

[LGTrotter]

There's a fair amount of misinformation here.

I heard it was a special type of cheese made from bear's milk.

[CaliforniaBrad]

There's a fair amount of misinformation here.

I heard it was a special type of cheese made from bear's milk.

Unicorn milk, get it right!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andy Velebil]

There's a fair amount of misinformation here.

I heard it was a special type of cheese made from bear's milk.

Unicorn milk, get it right!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No. Get it right. It's from a unicorn bear with small clusters down.....uh, below.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Axel P]

4 years ago I had a Constantino 47 together with quite a large number of prominent Port Producers in the Douro and we had this discussion on elderberries, too.

It is always a mistery to me how a Port can be that dark at a certain age (alike FG 76 or Martinez 55) without any add ons. They all confirmed that baga does not age well and adds a brown character to the Port colour after some 10-20 years already.

The brown character I could neither spot in the Constantino 47 or any of the other Ports mentioned here.

Nevertheless, for those who have tasted these wines must agree that they are all evolved very nicely on the palate and that the palate matches the age, so the only real problem we have is that the Port looks much younger than it tastes.

Knowing that there were tough punishments in Portugal for using baga, I am quite happy to open any of these bottles on a regular basis and enjoy them despite the possible baga in it.

Axel

[djewesbury]

Does anyone have a comment on the usefulness of the elderberry experiment above? It struck me as significant that it had lost so much colour.

[jdaw1]

Interesting discussion.

Participants are reminded of our discussions about 1955 Mackenzie.

Separately, it isn’t obvious to me that the port producers know much about the ageing of elderberry. The addition of baga was always secret, at least mostly. Records would be few. The juice was then shipped in cask to the UK, and bottled there. Forty years later which of the people carefully tasting a VP would know, really know, whether it had been baga’d? I say few to none.

So the ‘browning’ might be hypothesis, or presumption, rather than a known fact.

[Andy Velebil]

I think DRT has info on the quantity of Elderberries grown in Portugal at some distant time in history, IIRC. The amount that was grown was staggering given the fact it was outlawed. So one is probably safe in assuming the producers knew back then how it aged.

As to the color, I recall a producer saying it will start dropping some color and start turning a slight brown tinge within 4-5 years. The impression I got was the Port wouldn't turn to brown water, as the Port would still retain it's purple core. But there would be a brownish tint to it, in addition to the normal purple.

[DRT]

Some off-topic posts moved to here at the request of a tired and irritable JDAW.