Seeking "The Authentic Vintage Port" experience...?

[WineLoverPT]

My local wine shop was trying to score me a few bottles of a specific 2011 - they gave me a price, but by the time I got to loose the arrow, the price had gone over 100 euros.
I pondered.
And then it struck me that, if I was prepared to pay 100 euros for a bottle of port I couldn't (well, shouldn't) drink for another 20+ years - why wasn't I prepared to spend the same on a good bottle of vintage port that I could drink now? After all, I've never actually tasted a good bottle of vintage port - not even a glass.
So I decided I would.
And then the fun starts...
What to buy?
How to decide what to buy?

Now, I realise tastes are different - I tend, it seems, to like things at the more "ruby" end - others may not.
So here I am consulting the experienced.

Since I can only buy what I can buy, I've used Garrafeira Nacional from which to make my list - I pass by fairly regularly, so if it's there, chances are I can actually buy it.
http://www.garrafeiranacional.com/vinho ... price&p=10

So - the challenge - an alien arrives from deep in outer space and says "Take me to your most representative vintage port" - where do you take him, given that he only has 100 euros in his pocket? He's only visiting for a week, so it's for drinking now.

Lest you not want to look at the web site, I picked these as being "a bit old" and in the right price range.

1977 Ferreira Vintage Porto 100,00 €
1975 Quarles Harris Vintage Porto 95,00 €
1978 Fonseca Vintage Porto 96,00 €
1977 Real Vinícola Vintage Porto 95,00 €
1985 Taylors Vintage Porto 95,00 €
1967 Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Porto 95,00 €
1975 Ramos Pinto Vintage Porto 89,00 €
1980 Burmester Vintage Porto 89,50 €
1983 Niepoort Vintage Porto 90,00 €
1995 Taylors Quinta das Vargellas Vintage Porto 90,00 €
1994 Barros Vintage Porto 90,00 €
1997 Delaforce Vintage Quinta da Corte Porto 90,00 €
1983 Grahams Vintage Porto 94,00 €
1984 Fonseca Panascal Vintage Porto 94,00 €
1982 Niepoort Vintage Porto 95,00 €
1985 Grahams Vintage Porto 95,00 €
1987 Niepoort Vintage Porto 82,00 €
1980 Grahams Vintage Porto 85,00 €
1979 Borges Vintage Porto 86,50 €
1989 Calem Vintage Quinta da Foz Porto 70,00 €
1997 Krohn Quinta do Retiro Novo Vintage Porto 69,75 €

[jdaw1]

Of those I would choose:
• 1985 Taylors Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1967 Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1985 Grahams Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1980 Grahams Vintage Porto 85,00 €.

If only one, the CR67.

[LGTrotter]

Graham 1985. Decision made in a heartbeat.

[Glenn E.]

Graham 1985. Decision made in a heartbeat.

+1

G83 is also worthy from that list. Notably absent, though it should be available within the price constraints, is 1985 Fonseca.

[LGTrotter]

Graham 1985. Decision made in a heartbeat.

+1

G83 is also worthy from that list.

You couldn't let it lie could you Glenn. You could have just left it at the agreement about the Graham 85, but no.

Go on then, explain to this alien who has come for a day why he would want the 83 over the 85.

[djewesbury]

Oh behave. I had the G83 tonight and it was lovely.

[Glenn E.]

Graham 1985. Decision made in a heartbeat.

+1

G83 is also worthy from that list.

You couldn't let it lie could you Glenn. You could have just left it at the agreement about the Graham 85, but no.

Go on then, explain to this alien who has come for a day why he would want the 83 over the 85.

Oh sure, pick on my recommendation of G83 but say nothing at all about jdaw1's recommendation of T85? I'd much rather have G83 over T85, wouldn't you?

Come now, let's have some consistency shall we? Otherwise the aliens will think less of us.

[WineLoverPT]

The alien is all ears ...

[LGTrotter]

Oh sure, pick on my recommendation of G83 but say nothing at all about jdaw1's recommendation of T85? I'd much rather have G83 over T85, wouldn't you?

Come now, let's have some consistency shall we? Otherwise the aliens will think less of us.

Well that's true, but I set higher standards for you Glenn.

I wondered if you were going to suggest the 87 which I know is a vintage you have espoused in the past. I found myself drawn to suggesting the 67 Croft, but feared the collective sighs and tuts about this vintage. And then I noticed the 85 Graham; game over!

[Glenn E.]

Oh sure, pick on my recommendation of G83 but say nothing at all about jdaw1's recommendation of T85? I'd much rather have G83 over T85, wouldn't you?

Come now, let's have some consistency shall we? Otherwise the aliens will think less of us.

Well that's true, but I set higher standards for you Glenn.

I wondered if you were going to suggest the 87 which I know is a vintage you have espoused in the past. I found myself drawn to suggesting the 67 Croft, but feared the collective sighs and tuts about this vintage. And then I noticed the 85 Graham; game over!

87 Vargellas, yes. 87 Niepoort, no. Even Dirk admits that the 80s were not their finest years. I'd happily drink an '87 Niepoort, but wouldn't choose it from that list. (Though to be fair, I would probably have the 87 and 83 Niepoorts leading my second 5 with perhaps some argument for the 77 Ferreira)

I, too, was drawn by the 67 Roeda but I've never had it. That, however, was part of its appeal. Still... G85 in the end.

[mosesbotbol]

Of those I would choose:
• 1985 Taylors Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1967 Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1985 Grahams Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1980 Grahams Vintage Porto 85,00 €.

If only one, the CR67.

My exact list as well.

[LGTrotter]

Agreement amongst the forumites? We are not giving these aliens a true picture of .

[Glenn E.]

Agreement amongst the forumites? We are not giving these aliens a true picture of .

Clearly the aliens have already taken over Moses and JDAW, as neither of them mentioned the G83.

What next? DRT recommending the RV77?

[LGTrotter]

Agreement amongst the forumites? We are not giving these aliens a true picture of .

Clearly the aliens have already taken over Moses and JDAW, as neither of them mentioned the G83.

What next? DRT recommending the RV77?

And nobody has mentioned the Ramos Pinto 75. I wonder why?

[WineLoverPT]

The alien is sitting in the corner, a glass of (still) water in front of him, an unlit cigar in the ashtray beside him, looking somewhat bemused.
You might think he too is wondering why the Ramos Pinto has had no air time.
But you would be wrong.

[DRT]

The best port on that list is, without any doubt whatsoever, the Taylor 1985.

Buy all you can and buy it now.

The Graham 1985 is also lovely.

[Glenn E.]

The best port on that list is, without any doubt whatsoever, the Taylor 1985.

Buy all you can and buy it now.

Your plan is both subtle and cunning. I approve.

[jdaw1]

tastes are different - I tend, it seems, to like things at the more "ruby" end - others may not.

Does ‘ruby’ mean ‘non tawny’, which was my original interpretation, or does it mean ‘not too mature’. If it means the former, then CR67 is a good choice. But if you prefer slightly younger to slightly older, than Taylor 1985 (and Graham 1985 and Graham 1980) should be preferred.

"Take me to your most representative vintage port"

Well, “representative” of what? Of what I own? (A good 1985.) Of what I want to drink this year? (The nearest might be the ’67.) Of what I typically drink? (Something good but not excellent on sale in a supermarket.)

[LGTrotter]

The best port on that list is, without any doubt whatsoever, the Taylor 1985.

Buy all you can and buy it now.

Your plan is both subtle and cunning. I approve.

Subtle and cunning in the sense of misguided and otiose I presume?

"Take me to your most representative vintage port"

Well, “representative” of what? Of what I own? (A good 1985.) Of what I want to drink this year? (The nearest might be the ’67.) Of what I typically drink? (Something good but not excellent on sale in a supermarket.)

I read this as what bottle would you most like to drink now, unperturbed by what could be thought of as representative. But then, like all good politicians I answer the question I wanted to answer, rather than the one I was asked.

[DRT]

There was no attempt at cunning. I was simply answering the question with the correct answer.

[LGTrotter]

Well I, for one, would beg to differ. Both with the answer and with the confabulation of opinion with fact.

Besides, everybody knows that the Taylor 85 is a weedy fellow with soft wet handshake and a persistent cough, next to which the Graham of the same year has rosy cheeks and winning ways.

[CaliforniaBrad]

Of those I would choose:
• 1985 Taylors Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1967 Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1985 Grahams Vintage Porto 95,00 €;
• 1980 Grahams Vintage Porto 85,00 €.

If only one, the CR67.

Swap the Taylor's for the G83, and I'll agree. I've had T85 a few times and wouldn't recommend it above $50 to anyone. Perfectly fine stuff, in no way special or what would inspire me to be passionate about port.


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[Glenn E.]

Swap the Taylor's for the G83, and I'll agree. I've had T85 a few times and wouldn't recommend it above $50 to anyone. Perfectly fine stuff, in no way special or what would inspire me to be passionate about port.

See, Brad understands.

G85 is inspiring at $90. T85 is suitable at $50.

G85 I open for my Port buddies. T85 I open for people who know nothing about Port but have heard that I like it and are curious.

...

Having now written that I have had an epiphany. Give the alien T85. It will not be able to comprehend the greatness of G85, so the G85 would be wasted.

[WineLoverPT]

Having now written that I have had an epiphany. Give the alien T85. It will not be able to comprehend the greatness of G85, so the G85 would be wasted.

The alien raises his 5 sets of eyebrows at this remark, recalling the day a small space probe landed down the street from him, and his impressions when, on the golden record it contained, he first heard Glen Gould play Bach - would these "Port" people really have sent Lang Lang instead?

[djewesbury]

Beautifully put. The alien would love the paradoxical qualities of the T85 though; with access to a well-stored case, his six different mouths could all taste something completely different from one another, and yet they would all be T85.

[LGTrotter]

Having now written that I have had an epiphany. Give the alien T85. It will not be able to comprehend the greatness of G85, so the G85 would be wasted.

The alien raises his 5 sets of eyebrows at this remark, recalling the day a small space probe landed down the street from him, and his impressions when, on the golden record it contained, he first heard Glen Gould play Bach - would these "Port" people really have sent Lang Lang instead?

Glenn has put his finger on something which occurred to me. The trouble with drinking really good port is that you need to have something to compare it with. If this alien is given the finest on his one visit he will go home assuming it's all like that. My advice to wineloverpt would be to give the alien a Cruz ruby and drink the Graham 85 himself.

[LGTrotter]

Swap the Taylor's for the G83, and I'll agree. I've had T85 a few times and wouldn't recommend it above $50 to anyone. Perfectly fine stuff, in no way special or what would inspire me to be passionate about port.

See, Brad understands.

Daniel, Glenn and now Brad. Is there no end to this Graham 83.

Still if the alien has a taste for a combination of soil, alcohol and a pinch of sugar he may very well be glad of a glass.

[djewesbury]

Swap the Taylor's for the G83, and I'll agree. I've had T85 a few times and wouldn't recommend it above $50 to anyone. Perfectly fine stuff, in no way special or what would inspire me to be passionate about port.

See, Brad understands.

Daniel, Glenn and now Brad. Is there no end to this Graham 83.

Still if the alien has a taste for a combination of soil, alcohol and a pinch of sugar he may very well be glad of a glass.

Please do not misunderstand me - I am in your camp. I want to feed Graham 85 to aliens. I would resist strongly a campaign to feed Taylor 85 to aliens. But what can I say? I cannot tell a lie. Any alien would have liked the G83 I drank the other day. Even the amoebas.

[DRT]

Perhaps it is about time we had a blind 1985 tasting?

[WineLoverPT]

The trouble with drinking really good port is that you need to have something to compare it with. If this alien is given the finest on his one visit he will go home assuming it's all like that. My advice to wineloverpt would be to give the alien a Cruz ruby and drink the Graham 85 himself.

The alien smiles in the direction of LGTrotter - he can see the point.
He knows and accepts that this will be "the best" (sub 100 euros - how he wished he'd fabricated some more money before he left his home planet), and set his expectations for his next visit to our planet accordingly.
But he can also see the look in the great council's eyes when they read his report if he gets "Lang Langed" with a Cruz Ruby!

[PhilW]

So - the challenge - an alien arrives from deep in outer space and says "Take me to your most representative vintage port" - where do you take him, given that he only has 100 euros in his pocket? He's only visiting for a week, so it's for drinking now.

I think the reasons for the ramblings of many of my fellow enthusiasts is the potential lack of clarity on what you wish to achieve with your Alien... I'll assume that he has human-like taste and a high quality palate, and that you wish to provide him with the best experience you can, as if serving to a seasoned vintage port drinker.

You've clearly stated a preference for vintage ruby; If it were possible to persuade the purse-string holder to increase the budget to ~140 euros, I would point you unequivocally to F70. This isn't really playing by your rules, however, since I'm not staying within your "available" list., so from your list, either the T85 or G85 (T85 slightly better of the two from that vintage perhaps, though I prefer the Graham from a personal standpoint).

You are in a similar position that I was around 2001 - where I knew I liked vintage port, but with no real experience across the vintages and producers. My approach was to buy 4-5 bottles of 20-35yr from different houses and see what I liked best - it worked for me. Coming to a TPF tasting would work even better, if you were able; with a theme such as "best bottle you can buy retail for £75", for example, with several attendees would allow you to try several houses and years all at one go, and hopefully discover a lot.

[WineLoverPT]

You've clearly stated a preference for vintage ruby; If it were possible to persuade the purse-string holder to increase the budget to ~140 euros, I would point you unequivocally to F70. This isn't really playing by your rules, however, since I'm not staying within your "available" list., so from your list, either the T85 or G85 (T85 slightly better of the two from that vintage perhaps, though I prefer the Graham from a personal standpoint).

You are in a similar position that I was around 2001 - where I knew I liked vintage port, but with no real experience across the vintages and producers. My approach was to buy 4-5 bottles of 20-35yr from different houses and see what I liked best - it worked for me. Coming to a TPF tasting would work even better, if you were able; with a theme such as "best bottle you can buy retail for £75", for example, with several attendees would allow you to try several houses and years all at one go, and hopefully discover a lot.

(The Fonseca 1970 is, alas, 250 euros from Garrafeira Nacional)

The alien is taking his siesta (as I will shortly be doing), so I speak for him...

I realise this was an "impossible" question - but, nevertheless, I'm very much enjoying, and learning from, the discussions.
Obviously much depends on personal taste - my "ruby" comment was intended to steer people away from recommending tawnies since, from the very limited experience I've had with, what was described elsewhere, as "Vintage Tawnies", aka Colheitas, they aren't my preferred style of port.
The port shop in question has what I can only describe as a dazzling selection of port, with prices ranging from 10 euros to over 5000 euros (1963 Noval Nacional). When I next go to Lisbon in 10 days time, I will reread this thread, make my choice, safe in the knowledge that what I'm getting will be an excellent bottle of vintage port - to the eyes of some people perhaps, not the best, but excellent nonetheless.

I am carefully watching (or rather the TPF robots watch on my behalf) the "Organising Tastings and Get-togethers" thread in the hope that I'll be able to get to one as, clearly, this is the best way to sample greatness without having to sell my LearJet. "Best bottle you can buy retail for £75" sounds like an excellent theme.

I hear the alien stirring and mumbling something about Portugal and Ghana - who would have guessed that, as well as a taste for port in those far off planets, they also like to watch the occasional football match.

[jdaw1]

I am carefully watching (or rather the TPF robots watch on my behalf) the "Organising Tastings and Get-togethers" thread in the hope that I'll be able to get to one as, clearly, this is the best way to sample greatness without having to sell my LearJet. "Best bottle you can buy retail for £75" sounds like an excellent theme.

Don’t just watch. Start a thread yourself. You have chosen the theme. Next choose a date.

[LGTrotter]

I think the reasons for the ramblings of many of my fellow enthusiasts is the potential lack of clarity on what you wish to achieve with your Alien...

The other explanation might be that some of us like to ramble on and we never agree about anything; leading to a lack of clarity.

[AW77]

Start a thread yourself. You have chosen the theme. Next choose a date.

Yes, WineLoverPt should choose a date now.
May I make a suggestion? How about the evening of the BBR Port Walk? I think that this event would provide a further opportunity to WineLoverPt to taste a representative range of port. (In a way, this would be killing two birds with one stone.)

[WineLoverPT]

Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion, and recommendations.

The decision is made.

One follow up question, if I may - if I am to serve this at, say 10pm - at what time should I decant it for an optimal quaffing experience at that time?

[jdaw1]

The decision is made.

One follow up question, if I may - if I am to serve this at, say 10pm - at what time should I decant it for an optimal quaffing experience at that time?

That might depend on which you chose. Which did you choose?

[WineLoverPT]

That might depend on which you chose. Which did you choose?

Well.
I picked one of these ...
1967 Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Porto
1985 Grahams Vintage Porto
1983 Grahams Vintage Porto

I was going to post the tasting note here, and see, from that, it could be guessed which one it was.

So optimal decant times for those three...?

[jdaw1]

I was going to post the tasting note here, and see, from that, it could be guessed which one it was.

Good game.

1967 Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Porto

Maybe two to four hours.

1985 Grahams Vintage Porto

Maybe four to eight hours.

1983 Grahams Vintage Porto

Don’t know.

[djewesbury]

Glenn should know the decant time for the G83...

[LGTrotter]

What do you reckon Glenn? Pour it down the sink for as long as you like IMHO.

[CaliforniaBrad]

Glenn should know the decant time for the G83...

I'm guessing he'll say 6-8 hours.


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[djewesbury]

Glenn should know the decant time for the G83...

I'm guessing he'll say 6-8 hours.


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Let's have a quiz. I think he'll say <6 hrs.

[LGTrotter]

I would think that Brad is right, but as a guess 8 to 10 hours.

[PhilW]

I was going to post the tasting note here, and see, from that, it could be guessed which one it was.

Good game.

Agree, good idea.
It seems I favour slightly longer decanting time than jdaw1...

1967 Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Porto

Maybe two to four hours.

I'd go three to eight.

1985 Grahams Vintage Porto

Maybe four to eight hours.

I'd go six to twelve.

1983 Grahams Vintage Porto

Don’t know.

I'd go four to eight.
The above would be my ideal ranges though, and if the only option was slightly longer it wouldn't worry me too much for the latter two.

[jdaw1]

For any given bottle, not yet opened, there is substantial uncertainty about the optimal decanting time. I thought my estimates were reasonable, but not with great certainty — I have no objection to Phil’s recommendations.

[LGTrotter]

Although I wouldn't say the Graham 85 could come to much harm with a 12 hour decant it is one of those wines you can open and drink with pleasure almost immediately.

[Glenn E.]

I would think that Brad is right, but as a guess 8 to 10 hours.

Winner!

Both the G83 and G85 show best (at least to me) with longer decants. I usually shoot for 8-10 when the time is available, though really anything over 6 hours will normally be fine.

[LGTrotter]

I would think that Brad is right, but as a guess 8 to 10 hours.

Winner!

Both the G83 and G85 show best (at least to me) with longer decants. I usually shoot for 8-10 when the time is available, though really anything over 6 hours will normally be fine.

GGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLLL!!!!!!!!

My childish glee is sated. Thank-you Glenn.

[LGTrotter]

Anyway, all this chatter about decanting times for Graham 83 is irrelevant as undoubtably it is the 85 that was purchased.