Cellar #4

[Andy Velebil]

I seem to have collected a double magnum of SV00. It fell into the car from my father’s cellar. What should I do with it?

Give it to the Pope on Monday

[uncle tom]

Magnum of Offley '63 readied for decanting..

..label affixed - upside down - ready to be put on an optic..

[idj123]

I'm envious Tom-open house and a mag of the recently acquired OBV63 to boot. Not going to be able to make it up tonight for the festivities (will make it over at some point) but hope all goes well!

You're better rid of Greene King-never had much time for their beers (their IPA is a poor example of the type). Hopefully you can source some decent consistent mircobrews-mine's a pint of mild for what it's worth!

[jdaw1]

mine's a pint of mild for what it's worth!

Mild?! You drink my mild and I’ll have your ɪᴘᴀ.

[Glenn E.]

I hope you all have a grand time this weekend! Congratulations, Tom!

Drink one for me.

[DRT]

Various communications from Cellar #4 suggest that the troops are having a good time

[Glenn E.]

Various communications from Cellar #4 suggest that the troops are having a good time

Hmm. Puzzling. If they're capable of communicating, one could make an argument that they aren't having enough of a good time.

[mpij]

Hope your all enjoying yourselves.

[jdaw1]

Hope your all enjoying yourselves.

I did. SV00 and O63 and beer: what’s not to like.

[djewesbury]

Alles gut!

[uncle tom]

The mag of Offley '63 was finished around 10.30 - the double mag of Sv00 that Julian kindly brought was finally drained at 01.10..

Me? Now? - knackered....

[djewesbury]

Well done Tom. Very proud, very pleased, very annoyed I wasn't there! Raising a glass to you now.

[djewesbury]

I made a little detour today (not by very much, but I thought it was worthwhile) and took these photos.

Original files available should one be required for decorative purposes!

(Those supremely linguistically gifted members of will have spotted that the sign says 'Uncle Tom's Hut [or Cabin]'. This is a real stop on the Berlin U-Bahn.)

IMG_0213.jpg (195.54 KiB) Viewed 7896 times

IMG_0217.jpg (177.6 KiB) Viewed 7896 times

[uncle tom]

Nice one Dan..

[Glenn E.]

Who is this Toms person? Or perhaps Uncle Toms is a style of architecture? Surely the legendarily fastidious Germans could not have committed an apostrophe crime?

[DRT]

Surely the legendarily fastidious Germans could not have committed an apostrophe crime?

Not possible. Germans, like all persons whose first language is not English, are automatically exempt from prosecution.

Before you ask, yes, Americans somehow slipped through that net.

[Glenn E.]

But in this case, the crime was committed in German. I suppose that does mean that one of our native German speakers will have to prosecute, at least.

[DRT]

Is apostrophe usage the same in German as it is in English?

[Glenn E.]

Meistens ja, ich glaube.

I was going to say more, but do you have any idea how hard it is to type in a foreign language on a phone with autocorrect???

[PopulusTremula]

German has four cases, of which genitive, or possession, is one. Combined with the genders of the subjects and objects, the sentences can vary in composition. In my limited knowledge, apostrophes are not used to indicate possession.

The example above does not conform to written German as I remember it, although it's now more than 20 years since I tried to learn any. Making a very poor stab at writing the above, and assuming the guessed genders are accurate: I would expect the above to look something like: die Hütte der/des Onkel Toms.

Waiting nervously for Andre and the green ink, chewing my fingernails.

[djewesbury]

I can't believe that Glenn has made this simple schoolboy error! And anyway, what better way to honour the one English speaker amongst us who is exempt from reporting for apostrophe crimes?

Come on everyone, after me..
Der die das, die
Den die das, die
Des der des, der
Dem der dem, den!

Remember?

[DRT]

Remember?

No.

[djewesbury]

Magnus: Die Hütte des Onkel Toms, yes. It would only be 'der' if Uncle Tom was feminine.

[djewesbury]

I presume the abbreviation in this case is some sort of reference to Harriet Beecher Stowe, though I've no idea. There is an Onkel-Tom-Straße directly outside and a large roadside pub near the lake that is the eponymous Hütte (but not the original - see below).

EDIT:

The area was named after United States author and anti-slavery advocate Harriet Beecher Stowe's 1852 novel Uncle Tom's Cabin. In 1885 a local landlord named Thomas opened a public house at the southern rim of the Grunewald forest and installed several small huts in his beer garden to shelter his guests from the rain. These huts were referred to as "Tom's Cabins", which reminded many of the famous book. Over the years the estate, the station, even the cinema and the Onkel-Tom-Straße took on the name as well. The pub was finally demolished in 1979.

[PopulusTremula]

Daniel: thanks for clarifying.

A quick Wiki search indicates that the German name of the book is Onkel Toms Hütte. It would seem natural therefore that the station was named after the book - in German.

[Glenn E.]

I can't believe that Glenn has made this simple schoolboy error!

Eh? Which error is that?

(No really... ?)

[djewesbury]

Believing that German uses a possessive apostrophe, of course.

[Glenn E.]

I could swear that's how it was taught to me, but that was 30+ years ago and my memory's not so good anymore.

[djewesbury]

I could swear that's how it was taught to me, but that was 30+ years ago and my memory's not so good anymore.

Nah. Only possessive apostrophes in Deutsch are in Americanised signs ("Kemal's Felafels").
(See how I said 'Americanised' and not 'Anglicised'. That made it your fault. )

EDIT: and I spelled it with an 's' and not a 'z'!! Ow!

[PhilW]

EDIT: and I spelled it with an 's' and not a 'z'!! Ow!

Of course you did, you're British; nothing wrong with that! So all still Glenn's fault

[Glenn E.]

I could swear that's how it was taught to me, but that was 30+ years ago and my memory's not so good anymore.

Nah. Only possessive apostrophes in Deutsch are in Americanised signs ("Kemal's Felafels").

2. Apostroph (Apostrophe)

A. German generally does not use an apostrophe to show genitive possession (Karls Haus, Marias Buch), but there is an exception to this rule when a name or noun ends in an s-sound (spelled -s, ss, -ß, -tz, -z, -x, -ce). In such cases, instead of adding an s, the possessive form ends with an apostrophe: Felix’ Auto, Aristoteles’ Werke, Alice’ Haus. - Note: There is a disturbing trend among less well-educated German-speakers not only to use apostrophes as in English, but even in situations in which they would not be used in English, such as anglicized plurals (die Callgirl’s).

B. Like English, German also uses the apostrophe to indicate missing letters in contractions, slang, dialect, idiomatic expressions or poetic phrases: der Ku’damm (Kurfürstendamm), ich hab’ (habe), in wen’gen Minuten (wenigen), wie geht’s? (geht es), Bitte, nehmen S’ (Sie) Platz! But German does not use an apostrophe in some common contractions with definite articles: ins (in das), zum (zu dem).

Clearly I am a less well-educated German-(non)speaker.

Or I am simply remembering and extending the trailing apostrophe after an s-sound.

Or both.

[djewesbury]

die Callgirl's what? I want to know the end of that sentence!

[AW77]

Glenn, you are right. In general, the German language doesn't use the apostrophe to indicate the possessive genitive. But as in all languages, there is an exception to this rule (as you rightly pointed out by quotating your grammar book). To be quite sure about this exception, I looked it up today in the "Duden" which is for German what the OED is for English.
The 24th edition of 2006 (that's the one on my desk) states on page 1211: (in translation) "Personal names, whose infinitive form
(nominative) end with an s-sound (written: -s, -ss, -ß; -tz, -z, -x,-ce), get the apostrophe in the genitive, if they don't carry with them
an article, a possessive pronoun or suchlike. Examples are: Aristoteles'Schriften, Carlos' Schwester, Ines's gute Ideen, Felix' Vorschlag,
Heinz' Geburtstag, Alice' neue Wohnung (but you don't use the apostrophe, if you express the genitive like
this: die Schriften des Aristoteles, die Schwester des Carlos, der Geburtstag unseres kleinen Heinz)

There is also an exception to the "s"-rule: The apostrophe is also used, if -s, -z, -x etc. are silent in the infinite form. For example: Cannes'
Filmfestspiele, Boulez' bedeutender Beitrag, Giraudoux' Werke

[AW77]

Is apostrophe usage the same in German as it is in English?

As a rule of thumb, what would be an "apostrophe crime" in English would be perfectly correct in German (and vice versa).
[Exceptions apply of course, see the posts above.]
For this reason (the vice versa thing) I really enjoy the "apostrophe crime"-thread. Sometimes I was really tempted to report a "reverse" apostrophe crime when I spotted the apostrophe being used in the Anglo-American way. Especially when the new bakery around the corner opened some months ago which is named "Bergheim's Die Meisterbäckerei" when it should read "Bergheim Die Meisterbäckerei". But then I didn't want to elbow my way into your thread.

[DRT]

I didn't want to elbow my way into your thread.

In case it is not apparent, is a place of intellectual enlightenment and all threads belong to the collective for the benefit of the collective.

Please feel free to participate there in the absolute certainty that you are immune from prosecution

[jdaw1]

Please feel free to participate there in the absolute certainty that you are immune from prosecution

Immune from prosecution for A.C. in English. But if you made an A.C. in German that would be fair game — and now we know the rules. Or at least some of us do.

[PhilW]

The 24th edition of 2006 (that's the one on my desk) states on page 1211: (in translation) "Personal names, whose infinitive form
(nominative) end with an s-sound (written: -s, -ss, -ß; -tz, -z, -x,-ce), get the apostrophe in the genitive, if they don't carry with them
an article, a possessive pronoun or suchlike. Examples are: Aristoteles'Schriften, Carlos' Schwester, Ines's gute Ideen, Felix' Vorschlag,
Heinz' Geburtstag, Alice' neue Wohnung

Was there a reason why Ines became Ines's rather than Ines' ? I couldn't see a reason for this when comparing to the other examples at least.

[AW77]

Was there a reason why Ines became Ines's rather than Ines' ?

Well spotted. I simply made a mistake while copying the examples. So it should read "Ines' ".

[PhilW]

Was there a reason why Ines became Ines's rather than Ines' ?

Well spotted. I simply made a mistake while copying the examples. So it should read "Ines' ".

Looks like an apostrophe crime to me then Do I win a prize for the first non-German speaker to claim a German A.C.?

[AW77]

Do I win a prize for the first non-German speaker to claim a German A.C.?

You'll get a glass of Riesling when you're next in Germany in November.

[AW77]

Making a very poor stab at writing the above, and assuming the guessed genders are accurate: I would expect the above to look something like: die Hütte der/des Onkel Toms.

Waiting nervously for Andre and the green ink, chewing my fingernails.

This is quite good. You used two forms of showing possession: the one which adds the "s" and the one which uses the definite article. Unfortunately, both must not be used in one sentence (it would be like saying "the hut of uncle tom's"). So the example should read "die Hütte des Onkel Tom". But this is quite formal, written German. So in conversation you would simply say "die Hütte von Onkel Tom".

Do you use green ink in English schools? Over here we use red ink.

[DRT]

Do you use green ink in English schools? Over here we use red ink.

Green ink is exclusive to Moderators.

[LGTrotter]

Do you use green ink in English schools? Over here we use red ink.

Yes, though it is more the avoidance of red ink as much as the use of any other colour which is important. Not sure why but using red ink, as they did in my day, is seen as punitive or something like that. Not good for the little one's fragile self esteem. Not that lack of self esteem seems to be a big problem amongst school children.

[djewesbury]

If a letter is said by an editor or some such to be 'written in green ink', it means the sender is a lunatic. I always carry a nice fountain pen filled with red ink. It's the cheapest one I've ever owned and the nicest writer.

[PopulusTremula]

This is quite good. You used two forms of showing possession: the one which adds the "s" and the one which uses the definite article. Unfortunately, both must not be used in one sentence (it would be like saying "the hut of uncle tom's"). So the example should read "die Hütte des Onkel Tom". But this is quite formal, written German. So in conversation you would simply say "die Hütte von Onkel Tom".

Thanks, the words of my youth "could do better" are coming back to me.