Wed 17 June 2015, The Sweet-spot Vintages (66,70,77)

[flash_uk]

This post to hold arrangements as and when agreed.

When: 6.30pm, Wednesday 17 June 2015
Location: The Brasserie, Davy’s at Woolgate (25 Basinghall Street, London, EC2V 5HA, tel +44 20 7600 5216, streetmap.co.uk, maps.google.co.uk, bing.com).

People:

1. MPM;
2. CPR;
3. JDAW;
4. PW;
5. IDJ;
6. AHB;
7. RDA;
8. CA;
9. SM;
10. RAYC;
11. AJA.

Banished to Selkirk by some nasty people:

1. DRT.

Bottles:

1. G66 - IDJ, MPM, AHB
2. G70 - DRT, PW, CPR, AHB, RAYC
3. G77 (confirmed delivered) - CPR, AHB
4. T66 - IDJ, AHB
5. T70 (confirmed delivered) - MPM, AHB
6. T77 (confirmed delivered) - CPR
7. W66 (confirmed delivered) - MPM, AHB
8. W70 - PW, CPR, MPM, AHB, RAYC
9. W77 - PW, CPR, AHB
10. D66 (confirmed delivered) - AHB
11. D70 (confirmed delivered) - CPR, MPM, AHB, RAYC, JDAW
12. D77 (confirmed delivered) - CPR
13. SM bonus bottle (confirmed delivered)

Food order now in draft.


Draft of the placemats. These include glasses pages (I, II, III, …); voting pages (I, …); cork-display pages (D66, D70, D77, G66, …); decanter-label pages (both Roman and sighted Port); and personalised small sticky labels (2×D66, 2×D70, …).

Glasses


Voting


Cork display


Decanter labels


Personalised sticky labels

[flash_uk]

As pondered in this post, how about a tasting to test whether 66, 70 and 77 are vintages of a similar calibre, or if there is a leader. Who is interested? Date TBC.

The idea would be to take 3, 4 or 5 shippers (Graham, Fonseca, Taylor, Niepoort, Warre) depending on how many attendees, each shipper for 66, 70 and 77. Tasting blind, use a 9-point scoring system to establish proximity of wines to each other, to determine how close or distant these vintages are to each other.

[CPR 1]

Sounds like a very enjoyable tasting, count me in date depending

Charles

[flash_uk]

Sounds like a very enjoyable tasting, count me in date depending

Charles

Top post updated. I think I'd better pick a date otherwise it could get messy trying to retrospectively make it fit.

Wednesday 17 June is the provisional date. Venue perhaps Davy's Woolgate - they have a large room which could cope, and we should spread the love.

[jdaw1]

Include me in: yes please.

Tasting blind

How blind?
• Totally blind (α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο)?
• Shippers revealed; years hidden?
• Shippers equivalences (so α1 α2 α3, where α is a consistent shipper, not yet known); years hidden?
• Shippers hidden; years revealed?
• Year equivalences (so α1 β1 γ1 δ1 ε1, where 1 is a consistent year, not yet known); shippers hidden?
• Double equivalences: α1 α2 α3 β1 β2 β3 γ1 γ2 γ3 δ1 δ2 δ3 ε1 ε2 ε3, in which shippers α β γ δ ε are consistent but blind, and years 1 2 3 are consistent but blind)?
• Other?

[PhilW]

Count me in.
Did you really intend to miss out Dow?
I would vote either totally sighted or totally blind (though knowing the shippers and years in play).

[flash_uk]

Include me in: yes please.

Tasting blind

How blind?

Totally blind. Years must definitely be blind otherwise the purpose of the tasting can't be fulfilled. Shippers being blind adds a bit of extra fun. Voting would first be for scoring of wines. Then shipper-year guesses can be made.

[jdaw1]

I’d like to do some known comparisons. Labelling the fifteen wines as α1 α2 α3 β1 β2 β3 γ1 γ2 γ3 δ1 δ2 δ3 ε1 ε2 ε3 allows me to work on establishing which year is ‘1’, and which shipper is ‘α’. The structure educates.

Or, as Phil says, totally sighted.

[flash_uk]

Did you really intend to miss out Dow?

Good point. I think Graham and Fonseca are first on the team sheet without question. I put Taylor in next, but now that I think about it, in order of personal preference, after G and F, I'd probably put Warre, Dow, Niepoort, Taylor in that order.

This can give us something to debate as others hopefully sign up. I can just about handle a tasting of 18 ports, if all the above were to be included. I would propose that the number of shippers we actually have, be determined once we know the likely number of attendees.

[PhilW]

I’d like to do some known comparisons. Labelling the fifteen wines as α1 α2 α3 β1 β2 β3 γ1 γ2 γ3 δ1 δ2 δ3 ε1 ε2 ε3 allows me to work on establishing which year is ‘1’, and which shipper is ‘α’. The structure educates.

I suspect that such labelling would make the number to year mapping very obvious, thereby biasing comparison between years.

[flash_uk]

I’d like to do some known comparisons. Labelling the fifteen wines as α1 α2 α3 β1 β2 β3 γ1 γ2 γ3 δ1 δ2 δ3 ε1 ε2 ε3 allows me to work on establishing which year is ‘1’, and which shipper is ‘α’. The structure educates.

Mmm. I can see some merit in that. Would that not add significant blinding admin/faffing? And agree with Phil, that the year would probably be much easier to spot. Whether that would really introduce bias for us is another matter - I usually have enough to contend with just getting some notes down and some scoring done.

[jdaw1]

I’d like to do some known comparisons. Labelling the fifteen wines as α1 α2 α3 β1 β2 β3 γ1 γ2 γ3 δ1 δ2 δ3 ε1 ε2 ε3 allows me to work on establishing which year is ‘1’, and which shipper is ‘α’. The structure educates.

Mmm. I can see some merit in that. Would that not add significant blinding admin/faffing?

We could use a variant of the blinding technique used on 3^rd June 2014 for the 1958s. This variant requires two pedants. Decant sighted, containers being labelled {G, F, W, D, Ni}×{66, 70, 77}. Pedant One then over-labels with {A, B, C, D, E}×{i, ii, iii}, being careful to label shippers consistently and to label years consistently. Pedant Two, blind to what has just happened, then over-labels with {α, β, γ, δ, ε}×{1, 2, 3}, being careful to map consistently {A, B, C, D, E}→{α, β, γ, δ, ε} and {i, ii, iii}→{1, 2, 3}.

But I prefer sighted.

[DRT]

This tasting sounds interesting but the timing sounds awful - is mid summer in London the right time of your to do this?

[idj123]

I'm certainly interested in attending this.

[flash_uk]

This tasting sounds interesting but the timing sounds awful - is mid summer in London the right time of your to do this?

Indeed a concern I had pondered. One factor in choosing Woolgate was the availability of decent aircon. Have added you to the list

[DRT]

This tasting sounds interesting but the timing sounds awful - is mid summer in London the right time of your to do this?

Indeed a concern I had pondered. One factor in choosing Woolgate was the availability of decent aircon.

Hmmm? I see that as only half of the problem. I have no problem with Port tastings in the summer but I think these structured events with fine old bottles are best kept for the months when Port is a more natural choice of drink. There is also the problem of transporting bottles to the tasting. It wouldn't be the first summer tasting where we had bottles sitting in ice buckets to make the Port more palatable. That would be a great shame for this sort of line-up and would more or less invalidate the purpose.

Please mark me as tentative.

[jdaw1]

Derek’s arguments are persuasive. Flash: are you strongly against an autumn date?

[flash_uk]

Derek’s arguments are persuasive. Flash: are you strongly against an autumn date?

No not at all. I'm also persuaded by Derek's thoughts! All those currently signed up are coming along next Tuesday - suggest we see then if we can pick a suitable date in late Sept or October.

[Alex Bridgeman]

This does sound like a nice theme for a tasting and I really don't know why DRT is worried. Surely we will need something to cheer us up as we trudge through the rain and the 12C mid-afternoon June temperatures on our way to the Woolgate?

However, an Autumn date is perfectly acceptable to me but if we are worried about temperatures then we should probably wait until October.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Flash, we need a bit more guidance please. If only 6 of us sign-up then we would probably be best concentrating on only 2 shippers. If 2 more people sign up then we could add the 1963. If 3 more then add a shipper not an extra vintage.

So which shippers do we start with? Graham and Fonseca? Who can bring which vintages?

I'd rather do this totally (single) blind so I am judging only on the basis of the wine in the glass and only doing comparative rankings. If I rank all six bottles and have the two 1970s first and second and the two 1966s third and fourth and the two 1977s fifth and sixth then I have answered my own question of where the sweet spot is.

To do this blind we could ask someone at the Woolgate to help. If everyone double-decanted their own port and presented their bottle to the waiting staff, the waiting staff can transfer the contents out of site into a "plain" bottle with a label stating what it is obscured by an over-label that carries a symbol we can use to track the tasting notes.

[PhilW]

I'm quite happy to go ahead in June, and should be able to make it. Also favouring totally blind.

Last time at Woolgate (for Martinez) the staff kindly set aside 20 empty still mineral water bottles for our use into which we decanted; If the tasting is to be there then I'm sure we could ask them to do so again. Rather than a significant risk of mis-labelling, I would suggest:
- We all double-decant and bring
- Woolgate save 15 water-bottles for us
- We wrap the water bottles in silver foil and tag (business card on string) with shipper/year
- On arrival we decant into the correct bottle, and overtag with a blank tag (business card stapled on top, as used previously)
- Once all bottles ready, bottles are shuffled (Woolgate or non-decanting person to help)
- Overtag again with A-L (stapled business card)
- Placements show A-L
- Once Alex finished tasting, we rip off tags to reveal A-M shipper/year underneath

[DRT]

So which shippers do we start with? Graham and Fonseca? Who can bring which vintages?

Please put me down for G70 (from a stash with proven and consistent fabulousness)

[CPR 1]

I think there are now 7 of us with AHB thus shall we plan on 3 shippers Graham, Fonseca and either Dow or Warre? (but no 63's)

I have available 70/77 in all of these

[idj123]

I think there are now 7 of us with AHB thus shall we plan on 3 shippers Graham, Fonseca and either Dow or Warre? (but no 63's)

As organiser, Mike suggested Warre to be his third in line and so suggest we go with this and so that would be currently 9 bottles between 7 which appears manageable. For my own part I came across a G66 the other day when I was trying to locate the F66 and so this what I intend bringing.

[PhilW]

From known good stock I could bring G70, W70, W77.

[flash_uk]

Right, finally catching up on this thread. In case you have missed it, we've decided to press ahead with the 17 June for this.

Top post updated to include AHB. Now, if we can just persuade a couple more people to come along, then we can handle 12 bottles between 9 people I think. I'd rather stick to the three vintages of 66,70,77 and add shippers, than introduce a fourth vintage. So shippers would be: Graham, Fonseca, Warre, Dow.

I'll update the first post to reflect details of who can contribute what.

Also, does anyone have contact details for someone at Woolgate? PM to me would be great if so.

[jdaw1]

does anyone have contact details for someone at Woolgate?

Location: Davy’s at Woolgate (25 Basinghall Street, London, EC2V 5HA, tel +44 20 7600 5216, streetmap.co.uk, maps.google.co.uk, bing.com).

[flash_uk]

does anyone have contact details for someone at Woolgate?

Location: Davy’s at Woolgate (25 Basinghall Street, London, EC2V 5HA, tel +44 20 7600 5216, streetmap.co.uk, maps.google.co.uk, bing.com).

Yes, yes, but I think we know someone there by name.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I have easy access to Dow 1966 and 1970, Fonseca 1970, Graham 1966, 1970 and 1977, Warre 1966, 1970 and 1977. I'm happy to contribute two bottles to the line-up provided we don't go over 1½ bottles per person. I don't have many 1966s so don't want to contribute more than one from this vintage.

With a bit of notice, if I really need to, I could get hold of Fonseca 1966 or Dow 1977 but I would need to have the chance to visit Seckfords.

[PhilW]

does anyone have contact details for someone at Woolgate?

Yes, yes, but I think we know someone there by name.

See your email.

[flash_uk]

does anyone have contact details for someone at Woolgate?

Yes, yes, but I think we know someone there by name.

See your email.

Thanks Phil. I'll shoot them a message.

[flash_uk]

First post updated with a first pass at who might bring what in bold and underlined, with a view to avoiding the need for anyone to bring more than one from 66. We can complete this in the next week or two. Currently F66 is the tricky one, unless Julian turns out to have twelve dozen of these in the basement.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Given that we've tasted quite a lot of Fonseca this year, would it be worth exploring whether including Taylor instead of Fonseca in the line-up makes it easier to source bottles?

[idj123]

Given that we've tasted quite a lot of Fonseca this year, would it be worth exploring whether including Taylor instead of Fonseca in the line-up makes it easier to source bottles?

I have but a single bottle of F66 (and from a different source from that brought the other night) but I do have a few more of the T66.

[PhilW]

Given that we've tasted quite a lot of Fonseca this year, would it be worth exploring whether including Taylor instead of Fonseca

Are you really suggesting that it is possible to have "too much Fonseca"?! Blasphemer!

[CPR 1]

I had been having similar thoughts to Alex and would be up for the Taylor option. I could bring the 77

[flash_uk]

Like Phil, I needed to lie down for a moment to recover from the idea of leaving out Fonseca, but on reflection, switching Taylor in is no bad thing. Taylor it is - first post updated.

[flash_uk]

May as well get going on the dinner orders. The menu can be found here - please post your orders thanks.

[PhilW]

Starter: Welsh rarebit
Main: Rump steak (rare) with triple-cooked chips, green beans & peas, béarnaise sauce.

Also, I suggest pre-ordering a few portions of Salted Marcona Almonds for on the table from the start; they will need to be pre-ordered specifically, as they often run out.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I have ready access to Taylor 1966 and 1970.

I'd like to bring a guest, Chris Appleby. Chris has taken over the poisoned chalice of looking after the TPF account within Stevens Garner now that Anthony Habert has moved on to a new job. It would be good to induct him into our ways... I'll contribute an extra bottle on his behalf.

This is a dramatically different menu and very different from the normal B&F menu. It might be worth checking that it's the right one (or ordering well in advance so our requested steaks can be pre-ordered). My food order is:
Prawn Cocktail
Rib steak on the bone, medium rare, with bearnaise sauce

I'll check with Chris what he would like.

[jdaw1]

very different from the normal B&F menu.

Location: The Brasserie, Davy’s at Woolgate (25 Basinghall Street, London, EC2V 5HA, tel +44 20 7600 5216, streetmap.co.uk, maps.google.co.uk, bing.com).

[flash_uk]

I have ready access to Taylor 1966 and 1970.

Noted above.

I'd like to bring a guest, Chris Appleby. Chris has taken over the poisoned chalice of looking after the TPF account within Stevens Garner now that Anthony Habert has moved on to a new job. It would be good to induct him into our ways... I'll contribute an extra bottle on his behalf.

Excellent.

This is a dramatically different menu and very different from the normal B&F menu. It might be worth checking that it's the right one (or ordering well in advance so our requested steaks can be pre-ordered).

The menu was emailed to me by request following the booking. Same one as from previous events at Woolgate.

My food order is:
Prawn Cocktail
Rib steak on the bone, medium rare, with bearnaise sauce

Thank you.

I'll check with Chris what he would like.

Super - can you also inquire if CA are the full initials, and that he is right handed. I have no idea what happens if he is left handed, but Julian does.

[jdaw1]

Please:
— Soup;
— Davy’s cheese & bacon burger.

I have no idea what happens if he is left handed, but Julian does.

Small portions. Right-handed people get larger pours. Or something.

On glasses pages boxes should appear on the lower-right of the page for right-handed drinkers, and lower-left for left-handers. Tasters’ handedness is set by LeftHanders, an array of the text of the name of known left-handers, whether or not at this tasting.

[flash_uk]

Food order now in draft.

[jdaw1]

Food order now in draft.

Please add a crumble to my rations. And please describe my burger as “rare”.

[flash_uk]

Food order now in draft.

Please add a crumble to my rations. And please describe my burger as “rare”.

Done.

[flash_uk]

I've had another updated stab at allocating who could bring what (see first post). The 66s are not easy, with Ian currently taking a double hit here. Ian - let me know if this is hurting your 66 collection too much. Charles is also taking the strain with three 77s. The good news of course is that we have all 12 bottles covered (and currently 9 attendees, which seems sensible). Were we to discover another three attendees, we could add one more shipper, either Fonseca back in, or Niepoort. If Fonseca, one of the new attendees would need to solve the F66 conundrum to make Fonseca viable. What about Niepoort...does anyone have 66/70/77 for Niepoort?

[jdaw1]

About to have a go at the placemats: please confirm completely blind (α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ).

[flash_uk]

About to have a go at the placemats: please confirm completely blind (α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ).

Yes confirmed.

[flash_uk]

About to have a go at the placemats: please confirm completely blind (α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ).

Yes confirmed.

Are you going with Greeks? I thought we concluded that was difficult as not everyone recognises them? (Will find the thread/post in a moment with the relevant discussion).