Smith Woodhouse 1977
Smith Woodhouse 1977
Had Sushinorth over last night and we did a mini 77 tasting
delaforce
fonseca
smith woodhouse
The first two came out as expected, delaforce with a strong celery note that was pleasant at first until one tried the fonseca and then it just became tart.
There has been talk previously abotu the youth of the SW77 and having it midday side by side with the other wines leads me to question it.
The cork was practically new, certainly an incredible specimen if indeed 40 years of age. Nothing about the age of this bottle said 1977 which leads me to wonder if perhaps a house cheated by rereleasing an lbv from the 90's but slapped on the 77 on the label???
What you guys think?
delaforce
fonseca
smith woodhouse
The first two came out as expected, delaforce with a strong celery note that was pleasant at first until one tried the fonseca and then it just became tart.
There has been talk previously abotu the youth of the SW77 and having it midday side by side with the other wines leads me to question it.
The cork was practically new, certainly an incredible specimen if indeed 40 years of age. Nothing about the age of this bottle said 1977 which leads me to wonder if perhaps a house cheated by rereleasing an lbv from the 90's but slapped on the 77 on the label???
What you guys think?
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
That is not the Symingtons’ style. Just not.g-man wrote:SW77 […] perhaps a house cheated by rereleasing an lbv from the 90's but slapped on the 77 on the label???
What you guys think?
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
I've had many "like new" corks from the 80s. A 77 isn't much of a stretch.
SW has been used for late releases before, too. A bottle stored in the lodge might show significantly less age.
In short, no. Nothing to see here.
SW has been used for late releases before, too. A bottle stored in the lodge might show significantly less age.
In short, no. Nothing to see here.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
The Symingtons regularly re-cork older vintages before releasing. That is what you had.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
I bought a dozen in the UK from Berrys a while back and it turned out it was two half cases. In a thread somewhere Tom said that he thought these were a recent shipment from Portugal and that they would have been recorked prior to shipping. I was a little worried, both by the storage in Portugal (the consensus view being that they age faster in Portugal) and by the recorking which I don't think helps. So I would support the view that there are no shenanigans going on here and I am delighted that a recorked port is showing so well. I have not yet had them delivered and I think on the basis of your experience may leave them with Berrys for a few more years.
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
plus they seem to have a method of re-polishing the bottles to make them look pristine.DRT wrote:The Symingtons regularly re-cork older vintages before releasing. That is what you had.
Rob C.
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
Bottles stored in Gaia are typically unlabelled. So they wash the bottles, presumably with cold water, and then affix a label.RAYC wrote:plus they seem to have a method of re-polishing the bottles to make them look pristine.
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
ah good to know.DRT wrote:The Symingtons regularly re-cork older vintages before releasing. That is what you had.
I've seen it done with some of the dow 85's that have been released.
I guess it's always shocking to see the SW 77 when opened.
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
that woudl beg the question if a cellar stocker were lazy that day and simply stocked whatever storage bin may have been empty and closests unbeknownist to the cellar master and fellow owners?jdaw1 wrote:Bottles stored in Gaia are typically unlabelled. So they wash the bottles, presumably with cold water, and then affix a label.RAYC wrote:plus they seem to have a method of re-polishing the bottles to make them look pristine.
though if they did recork, i guess it's simply matching up the cork pulled with the bin it was stored in.
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
I've never seen an unorganized bottle storage area in Gaia.g-man wrote:that woudl beg the question if a cellar stocker were lazy that day and simply stocked whatever storage bin may have been empty and closests unbeknownist to the cellar master and fellow owners?jdaw1 wrote:Bottles stored in Gaia are typically unlabelled. So they wash the bottles, presumably with cold water, and then affix a label.RAYC wrote:plus they seem to have a method of re-polishing the bottles to make them look pristine.
though if they did recork, i guess it's simply matching up the cork pulled with the bin it was stored in.
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
I have - the bits that are not on the regular tourist trail can be a right mess..I've never seen an unorganized bottle storage area in Gaia.
But they do tag the bins - after a fashion - and very rarely put more than one wine in a bin, unless they can be clearly separated.
SW77 is a very young wine. I last decanted one of mine on Dec 4th '13, making the note: 'Full and really immature despite it's 36 years'
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
absolutely, but we all can admit that it's certainly not the norm in terms of representing the 77' vintage. It's darker than the 92' de la rosa i have opened!!uncle tom wrote:
SW77 is a very young wine. I last decanted one of mine on Dec 4th '13, making the note: 'Full and really immature despite it's 36 years'
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
It's an outlier, that's for sure. But so are D80 and FG76 and... there are several. And as I recall from our tasting on the matter, flavor-wise they all seemed perfectly normal (for their appearance) and not adulterated in any way.g-man wrote:absolutely, but we all can admit that it's certainly not the norm in terms of representing the 77' vintage. It's darker than the 92' de la rosa i have opened!!uncle tom wrote:
SW77 is a very young wine. I last decanted one of mine on Dec 4th '13, making the note: 'Full and really immature despite it's 36 years'
Plus that's what every SW77 is like. If it were a situation like you suggested, I would expect to see both "normal" and "too young" bottles on the market. We don't see that.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
i must admit i haven't had a proper port tasting in a while. As sushinorth was over, and he brought a 77 delaforce, we figure an impromptu 77' tasting was called for.Glenn E. wrote: Plus that's what every SW77 is like. If it were a situation like you suggested, I would expect to see both "normal" and "too young" bottles on the market. We don't see that.
As with "normal" and "too young", it would seem that the bottle itself is refreshed. Cleaned, new label, new cork. Not sure if the process includes potentially refreshing the wine itself, which even major first growths bordelais do. That would explain the consistency in that instance.
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
Glenn's point is a powerful one, however presumably if the level in the bottles was low when recorking then the bottle would have been topped up. Whether with another bottle of 77 Smith Woodhouse, sacrificed for the purpose or something younger I do not know...g-man wrote:As with "normal" and "too young", it would seem that the bottle itself is refreshed. Cleaned, new label, new cork. Not sure if the process includes potentially refreshing the wine itself, which even major first growths bordelais do. That would explain the consistency in that instance.Glenn E. wrote: Plus that's what every SW77 is like. If it were a situation like you suggested, I would expect to see both "normal" and "too young" bottles on the market. We don't see that.
Anyway enough of this desultory banter, any chance of a tasting note for this miraculous bottle?
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
SW77 tastes young, at least according to my TNs of 3rd June 2015 and of 26th March 2015. These were not ex-cellars, having been in the vendor’s “possession since 1984 ish”.
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
I should have been a little more clearer. What producer has bins of things aging that aren't labeled, without a bin marker, and all tossed together? While I've seen things spread all over a given area, it was all properly marked in some fashion so as one could easily tell what it was.uncle tom wrote:I have - the bits that are not on the regular tourist trail can be a right mess..I've never seen an unorganized bottle storage area in Gaia.
On a side, exactly how does one "lose" a pipe of Port in ones cellar for decades as some stories have been told? I mean really, you've got full time cellar masters that keep track of everything. Just look at old detailed record books and now computerized record keeping. If you're a smaller producer it's even harder to "lose" a pipe for long periods when you don't have a huge Lodge. They aren't exactly small or light, lol.
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
SW is often very deeply colored and the 1977 is still very dark. That is quite normal for this label.g-man wrote:absolutely, but we all can admit that it's certainly not the norm in terms of representing the 77' vintage. It's darker than the 92' de la rosa i have opened!!uncle tom wrote:
SW77 is a very young wine. I last decanted one of mine on Dec 4th '13, making the note: 'Full and really immature despite it's 36 years'
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
Some vintage ports remain youthful so far beyond their years that people doubt their authenticity, but it really does happen.that it's certainly not the norm in terms of representing the 77' vintage. It's darker than the 92' de la rosa i have opened!!
Noval '31 is the classic example, Constantino '47 is another. Mackenzie '55 is so young, many believe it must be fake, but I'm satisfied otherwise. Dow '66 is another strong player, as is SW77..
..it happens!
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
The high percentage of Sousao in Noval Nacional is what also gives that it's very deep color. And why it's again, some 140-ish years after Phylloxera, becoming very popular again.uncle tom wrote:Some vintage ports remain youthful so far beyond their years that people doubt their authenticity, but it really does happen.that it's certainly not the norm in terms of representing the 77' vintage. It's darker than the 92' de la rosa i have opened!!
Noval '31 is the classic example, Constantino '47 is another. Mackenzie '55 is so young, many believe it must be fake, but I'm satisfied otherwise. Dow '66 is another strong player, as is SW77..
..it happens!
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
I wasn't thinking about the Nacional '31. The Nacional vineyard was very young when the '31 vintage came along, and I don't know of any trustworthy notes on NN31 from the last forty years that don't include some measure of disappointment. The regular N31 however is holding up superbly.The high percentage of Sousao in Noval Nacional is what also gives that it's very deep color. And why it's again, some 140-ish years after Phylloxera, becoming very popular again.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
I'm pretty sure that SFE don't do this. This is based on a handful of occasions when I've had an order cancelled with an apologetic explanation of something like "When we went to the bin to get the bottles we found they had leaked at bit. Sorry, we can't supply them." If SFE were in the habit of topping up so bottles had good fill levels when they were sold it's unlikely my order would have gone unfulfilled.g-man wrote:Not sure if the process includes potentially refreshing the wine itself, which even major first growths bordelais do. That would explain the consistency in that instance.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
With the 75cl bottle of SW77 tasting so young in comparison to many of its peers, when should I leave it in order to open it magnum form!?
Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
well if ullage were truly too low, a few of the big bordeaux houses simply keep such bottles around to be utilized to fill other bottles.AHB wrote:I'm pretty sure that SFE don't do this. This is based on a handful of occasions when I've had an order cancelled with an apologetic explanation of something like "When we went to the bin to get the bottles we found they had leaked at bit. Sorry, we can't supply them." If SFE were in the habit of topping up so bottles had good fill levels when they were sold it's unlikely my order would have gone unfulfilled.g-man wrote:Not sure if the process includes potentially refreshing the wine itself, which even major first growths bordelais do. That would explain the consistency in that instance.
Penfold's definitely does this with the grange. They will keep aside "bad" bottles of grange solely for purposes of refilling bottles that get brought into be refreshed (a yearly occurrence where they have a cellar master travel to these events and oversee the refreshing process). They will also, cut it with a more recent vintage.
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Re: Smith Woodhouse 1977
Agree the couple times I've had them I've preferred the regular to the NN. Many others swear by the NN, because IMO label bias told them they should, LOL.uncle tom wrote:I wasn't thinking about the Nacional '31. The Nacional vineyard was very young when the '31 vintage came along, and I don't know of any trustworthy notes on NN31 from the last forty years that don't include some measure of disappointment. The regular N31 however is holding up superbly.The high percentage of Sousao in Noval Nacional is what also gives that it's very deep color. And why it's again, some 140-ish years after Phylloxera, becoming very popular again.
We need to revisit that discussion about 1931 NN being the first. There is at least one record Julian found of a NN prior to that. I know what folk lore is but I find it odd they would replant that entire section at one time for a variety of reasons.