ThePortForum.com

Posted: **21:59 Thu 16 May 2024**

Quinta da Pacheca has released VP in 2000, 2016, 17, 19, and 21 (that I know of).

Gaivosa has at least 2003, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2020, as well as their 'Amphitheatrum' series.

Tecedeiras has 2003, 2007, 2008, 2016, and 2017 (that I'm aware of).

Posted: **16:14 Sun 19 May 2024**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).
Website has multiple tawnies, two LBVs, and zero VPs. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation. But anyway, I’m changing my mind for this temporary abbreviation to Pa.

Agree with Pa, was going to suggest the same if we passed the 3+ vintages test.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Gv, for Quinta da Gaivosa?
No website; internet knows of VPs 2015 and 2017. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation.

MigSU wrote: ↑21:59 Thu 16 May 2024 Gaivosa has at least 2003, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2020, as well as their 'Amphitheatrum' series.

Agree with Gv

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Tc, for Tecedeiras?
Website knows of Vintages 2016 and 2017 with other online evidence of a 2008, and LBVs 2014 and 2015. Also, unlike the table wine, it is “Quinta das Tecedeiras”. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Tc?

Agree with Tc.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024SO, for Quinta Seara D’Ordens?
Website has VPs from every year 2013–2021. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. SO?

Agree.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).
Website has VPs 2014, ’16, ’17, ’18. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Po?

Agree - reluctantly, since non-obvious, and noting shortage of P.. abbreviations for any future brands, but I don't have better suggestion.
My alternate (VPID indexing) use of q pre-pend for Quinta do/da/... brands would facilitate qPe == Quinta do Pessegueiro vs Pe == Petre on this occasion, but would still be very tight/problematic for the future with the growing number of single quinta brands.

Posted: **20:37 Sun 19 May 2024**

Given these agreements, and other silence, all added to the first post.

Posted: **16:03 Thu 15 Aug 2024**

Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include Cô and Ct. Preferences?

I slightly prefer Cô, but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.

Posted: **16:13 Thu 15 Aug 2024**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:37 Sun 19 May 2024 Given these agreements, and other silence, all added to the first post.

This occurred during my vacation, but I agree ex post facto.

P_ is definitely becoming problematic.

Pego, Passadouro, and Petre all prevent obvious abbreviations for Pessegueiro, and Petre is itself limited by Portal while Passadouro is limited by Pacheca.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑16:03 Thu 15 Aug 2024 Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include Cô and Ct. Preferences?

I slightly prefer Cô, but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.

I would prefer not to use special characters, so it would be Ct for me.

Posted: **18:40 Thu 15 Aug 2024**

Glenn E. wrote: ↑16:13 Thu 15 Aug 2024I would prefer not to use special characters, so it would be Ct for me.

I do prefer to use non-exotic accents, as doing might, in the future, lessen problems such as:

Glenn E. wrote: ↑16:13 Thu 15 Aug 2024Pego, Passadouro, and Petre all prevent obvious abbreviations for Pessegueiro, and Petre is itself limited by Portal while Passadouro is limited by Pacheca.

Non-exotic? My restriction is to those present in almost of typefaces. So not the macron present in Sērikos, but yes to the basics: acute, grave, circumflex, umlaut ≈ diaeresis, cedilla, ring (yes, I know).

Posted: **18:45 Thu 15 Aug 2024**

Glenn E. wrote:
jdaw1 wrote: ↑16:03 Thu 15 Aug 2024 Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include Cô and Ct. Preferences?

I slightly prefer Cô, but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.
I would prefer not to use special characters, so it would be Ct for me.

+1

Posted: **21:15 Thu 15 Aug 2024**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:40 Thu 15 Aug 2024 Non-exotic? My restriction is to those present in almost of typefaces. So not the macron present in Sērikos, but yes to the basics: acute, grave, circumflex, umlaut ≈ diaeresis, cedilla, ring (yes, I know).

Every use of a non-basic character requires me to Google the short code for it. Ergo, basic characters only if at all possible.

Posted: **22:58 Thu 15 Aug 2024**

I’m another vote for basic characters only. Quinta da Côrte for me is Ct

Posted: **23:18 Thu 15 Aug 2024**

I’m outvoted 3:½. Ct it is.

Posted: **19:02 Tue 03 Sep 2024**

BRPetrie wrote: ↑09:15 Wed 24 Jul 2024uncle tom - Guimararens Quinta do Cruzeiro

The quinta, but not any wines, are on the Fonseca website. “Guimararens Quinta do Cruzeiro”? “Fonseca Quinta do Cruzeiro”? FC? (There is Fc = Fletcher.)

Posted: **20:15 Tue 03 Sep 2024**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:02 Tue 03 Sep 2024
BRPetrie wrote: ↑09:15 Wed 24 Jul 2024uncle tom - Guimararens Quinta do Cruzeiro
The quinta, but not any wines, are on the Fonseca website. “Guimararens Quinta do Cruzeiro”? “Fonseca Quinta do Cruzeiro”? FC? (There is Fc = Fletcher.)

We have:
RPE = Ramos Pinto Quinta de Ervamoira

How about FGC? Or failing that, GCz

Posted: **21:07 Tue 03 Sep 2024**

There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.

However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.

Posted: **21:47 Tue 03 Sep 2024**

FGC is OK with me. I prefer the more concise FC, but the former also works. Also FCz works.

GCz smells of Graham — blackcurrant sweetness so obvious — so no, not this.

Posted: **22:51 Tue 03 Sep 2024**

Why FGC? I saw only one reference to Guimaraens VPs at that link, and that reference followed one to Fonseca VPs.

It seems to me that FC is the correct abbreviation unless there is evidence of a label for Fonseca Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro.

But more importantly, don't we usually require a minimum of 3 vintages to be awarded an abbreviation?

Edit: I now see the reference - the 1982 tasting. Winesearcher believes there was also a 2015, but none are available. That's still only 2 and we usually require 3.

Posted: **06:31 Wed 04 Sep 2024**

Glenn E. wrote: ↑22:51 Tue 03 Sep 2024That's still only 2 and we usually require 3.

Fair. But, at a minimum, we need a temporary unofficial abbreviation for this tasting.

Posted: **15:34 Wed 04 Sep 2024**

PhilW wrote: ↑21:07 Tue 03 Sep 2024 There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.

However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:47 Tue 03 Sep 2024 FGC is OK with me. I prefer the more concise FC, but the former also works. Also FCz works.

GCz smells of Graham — blackcurrant sweetness so obvious — so no, not this.

Building on these, and noting that Fonseca isn't mentioned, and not liking Gm at the start as it nods to GM, how about GuC?

Posted: **17:02 Wed 04 Sep 2024**

flash_uk wrote: ↑15:34 Wed 04 Sep 2024
PhilW wrote: ↑21:07 Tue 03 Sep 2024 There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.

However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:47 Tue 03 Sep 2024 FGC is OK with me. I prefer the more concise FC, but the former also works. Also FCz works.

GCz smells of Graham — blackcurrant sweetness so obvious — so no, not this.
Building on these, and noting that Fonseca isn't mentioned, and not liking Gm at the start as it nods to GM, how about GuC?

GuC works for me.

Posted: **19:19 Wed 04 Sep 2024**

GiC would come nearer the correct pronunciation of the house. Objections?

Posted: **21:51 Wed 04 Sep 2024**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:19 Wed 04 Sep 2024 GiC would come nearer the correct pronunciation of the house. Objections?

That also works for me.

Though I must admit that it seems... somehow... a bit odd. Yes, it does match pronunciation, but somehow in my mind the 'i' doesn't correlate to the name.

Posted: **22:20 Wed 04 Sep 2024**

Prefer Gu to Gi, but prepared to be out voted (and accepting others' dislike for Gm), agreeing with consequent GuC/GiC.

Posted: **23:16 Wed 04 Sep 2024**

I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.

Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.

Posted: **23:29 Wed 04 Sep 2024**

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑23:16 Wed 04 Sep 2024 I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.

Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.

I don't really like the idea, either, but after re-reading Phil's post and reviewing the Ports in question, they do not say Fonseca on the label. It seems that there were Ports released by Guimaraens, at least 2 of which were also labeled Quinta do Cruizeiro, that were somehow separate from Fonseca. Or were just labeled weirdly? Both of the Cruzeiro-labeled versions (1982, and allegedly 2015 per winesearcher.com) came well after Fonseca was using Guimaraens as a second label.

I'm still fine with using FGC for those 2 vintages, provided we do not introduce Gu or Gi for the non-Fonseca, Guimaraens-branded VPs that Phil mentioned in his original post. This seems to be a rather confusing situation and perhaps some official clarification of the Guimaraens-branded VPs.

Posted: **07:59 Thu 05 Sep 2024**

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑23:16 Wed 04 Sep 2024 I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.

Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.

But we do use Ct for Quinta da Corte, vs DfC for Delaforce Quinta da Corte (since the latter was established first).
I strongly dislike FCz since the bottle is branded Guimaraens with no mention of Fonseca, so an abbreviation with no mention of Guimaraens does not make sense to me.
n.b. While I would personally have a separate abbreviation for Guimaraens (Gm/Gu) where Fonseca is not mentioned, I'm not against staying with FG as a compromise; and in either case the addition of the C (GmC/GuC/FGC) for current placemat doesn't necessarily have to be set in stone since it's a one-off.

Posted: **16:06 Thu 05 Sep 2024**

Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?

Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)

Posted: **21:01 Thu 05 Sep 2024**

Glenn E. wrote: ↑16:06 Thu 05 Sep 2024Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?

Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)

I have asked David G. by WhatsApp and by email.

Posted: **22:49 Thu 05 Sep 2024**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:01 Thu 05 Sep 2024
Glenn E. wrote: ↑16:06 Thu 05 Sep 2024Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?

Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)
I have asked David G. by WhatsApp and by email.

But it's harvest time, so don't expect a reply until December.

Posted: **00:41 Fri 06 Sep 2024**

The history of Guimaraens is very complicated. However, Fonseca and Guimaraens were two separate companies until Alistair merged them, IIRC in the late 60’s. I will look back through an old article I wrote on the history of the company (old computer and need to find the file. But it was an article on FTLOP).

Edit: Found it. 1967 they were merged.

https://www.fortheloveofport.com/fonsec ... orce-club/

Posted: **17:23 Fri 06 Sep 2024**

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑00:41 Fri 06 Sep 2024 The history of Guimaraens is very complicated. However, Fonseca and Guimaraens were two separate companies until Alistair merged them, IIRC in the late 60’s. I will look back through an old article I wrote on the history of the company (old computer and need to find the file. But it was an article on FTLOP).

Edit: Found it. 1967 they were merged.

https://www.fortheloveofport.com/fonsec ... orce-club/

Huh. Yes, that's a rather complex history! I have seen and tasted Fonseca Guimaraens Ports from both 1964 and 1965. I assume TFP owned both prior to the merge?

Winesearcher has greyed-out vintages going back to 1919 for Fonseca Guimaraens, but without being able to see pictures associated with those listings I suspect that some (all?) of them are actually just Guimaraens and not Fonseca Guimaraens.

Posted: **18:20 Fri 06 Sep 2024**

Glenn E. wrote:Winesearcher has greyed-out vintages going back to 1919 for Fonseca Guimaraens, but without being able to see pictures associated with those listings I suspect that some (all?) of them are actually just Guimaraens and not Fonseca Guimaraens.

But you could do a VPID search.

Posted: **21:57 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

Vista Alegre: VA?

Posted: **22:01 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:57 Wed 18 Sep 2024 Vista Alegre: VA?

Yes please.

Posted: **22:04 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

VA is an unfortunate abbreviation.

Posted: **22:37 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

MigSU wrote: ↑22:04 Wed 18 Sep 2024 VA is an unfortunate abbreviation.

Indeed. But I cannot think of a better abbreviation to use.

But also... the company is Vista Alegre, but the brand is Vallegre. I think that means that the abbreviation should be derived from Vallegre, though even in that case I cannot think of anything better than VA. Though I believe in that case it should be Va?

Posted: **22:53 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

https://www.vallegre.pt/en/vallegre/

V’s in use:

V = Quinta do Vesuvio
VC = Capela da Quinta do Vesuvio
VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria
VF = Quinta de Val da Figueira
Vl = Quinta do Vallado
VM = Quinta de Vale Meão
Vr = Porto Valriz
VS = Vieira de Sousa
Vz = Quinta de Ventozelo
VZ = Van Zeller

Posted: **23:03 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

Va would seem more appropriate.

Posted: **23:14 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.

Posted: **23:35 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

M.Charlton wrote: ↑23:14 Wed 18 Sep 2024 My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.

Now that you mention it, you're absolutely right. I don't recall ever seeing a Vallegre Port.
VA it is, then. Good luck, Vista Alegre.

Posted: **23:57 Wed 18 Sep 2024**

M.Charlton wrote: ↑23:14 Wed 18 Sep 2024 My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.

Huh. I do have Port in my cellar labeled with both, but not any that is just labeled with Vallegre.

VA it is.

Posted: **14:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024**

Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.

Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand. (Their Peace & Love brand has, so far, only been used for non Vintage Ports.)

We need an abbreviation for them.

P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca

Which really only leaves Pn.

Any objections?

Posted: **16:58 Fri 04 Oct 2024**

Diez - Dz or DZ?

Posted: **17:44 Fri 04 Oct 2024**

Justin K wrote:Diez - Dz or DZ?

Dz

Posted: **19:19 Fri 04 Oct 2024**

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑14:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024 Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.

Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand. (Their Peace & Love brand has, so far, only been used for non Vintage Ports.)

We need an abbreviation for them.

P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca

Which really only leaves Pn.

Any objections?

Pn seems appropriate.

Posted: **21:45 Fri 04 Oct 2024**

PhilW wrote: ↑17:44 Fri 04 Oct 2024
Justin K wrote:Diez - Dz or DZ?
Dz

Dz

Posted: **21:47 Fri 04 Oct 2024**

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑14:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.

Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand.

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑14:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024Which really only leaves Pn.

Any objections?

No objection to Pn.

Posted: **18:34 Mon 07 Oct 2024**

Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑14:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024 P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca

Which really only leaves Pn.

Any objections?

Ugh.

Pn should be Pintas and Pi should be Piano.

It's confusing enough to me to suggest that, if Pi cannot be changed, then we should use Po for Piano.

Posted: **18:38 Mon 11 Nov 2024**

PhilW wrote: ↑13:51 Tue 28 May 2013Pa = Quinta da Pacheca
PA = Quinta da Pedra Alta
Pç = Poças
Pe = Petre
Pg = Quinta do Pego
Pi = Pintas
Pn = Piano by Carlos Alonso Douro Wines
Po = Quinta do Pessegueiro
Pr = Quinta da Prelada
Ps = Quinta do Passadouro
Pt = Quinta do Portal
Pt+ = Quinta do Portal+
PtM = Portal Quinta dos Muros

Palmer? Pl or Pm?

Posted: **20:47 Mon 11 Nov 2024**

Pl. Pm easily confused with Pn.

Posted: **21:29 Mon 11 Nov 2024**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:38 Mon 11 Nov 2024 Palmer[/url]? Pl or Pm?

Referencing previous comments:

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Thu 16 May 2024
PhilW wrote: ↑07:45 Thu 16 May 2024Referencing earlier discussion, we have previously only assigned permanent abbreviations for brands which have released vintage ports for ~3 vintages or more; do these meet that criteria? is that criteria still reasonable?
Very reasonable. And I had forgotten that.

Has any vintage port been released under the Palmer brand? (I only aware of their colheitas).
If not, perhaps no need to add Palmer to formal abbreviation list, unless we wish to extend to colheitas now.

Posted: **21:37 Mon 11 Nov 2024**

PhilW wrote: ↑21:29 Mon 11 Nov 2024unless we wish to extend to colheitas now.

That is a fair question. We do seem to have strayed into colheita-land, so much that signposts would probably be welcome.

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