vintage port

[DRT]

It is in all likelihood a Colheita, not a Vintage Port, the label's "vintage" notwithstanding. I believe that I have bottles in my cellar labeled "Vintage Reserve" or something similar that are most definitely what we now call Colheitas.

In 2009 a dozen or so ers went to Quinta do Crasto and consumed this bottle. Andy and Julian were both there and, if memory serves me correctly, were never without cameras in hand. My recollection is that the label on that bottle was the same style as the label pictured above and it was most definitely a vintage port.

Andy or Julian, do you have photographs of that bottle? If so please post them here.

[RAYC]

it is probably vintage port (not a colheita)

Even from the photo, this looks very different to other 1920s / 1930s port bottles that i've seen, which makes me skeptical that this is a vintage port. But I'm prepared to be told i'm wrong!

As i speculated above, i also think this is probably a colheita from 1927.

Roy did a blog article on FTLOP which includes information about the 1927 Constantino that might be of interest - it suggests that the only bottling of it was done in the 1940s. I can't recall the rules on cross posting, so apologies if i am breaking rules and mods feel free to edit:

To gain more information on the 1927 Constantino Colheita, I went directly to the source ! well almost. I contacted my friend Miguel at Quinta do Crasto to gain some more insight into his mother’s father’s Port wine. After all, this gentleman was Mr. Constantino and I knew of his connection with Crasto and that he was Miguel’s grandfather. What I didn’t know anything about, was this specific vintage of Colheita that Constantino produced.

Miguel informed me:

"I already had a 1927 Constantino’s Colheita and it was a phenomenal wine. This was done last year with a very good friend that works at Taylor’s and he is also a Port maniac like me and you. From our records this Colheita was only bottled in the late ‘40s but the bottling date is not stated on the label. "

That said, if i were looking at the glass alone, i wouldn't pick it as a 1940s bottle either, but there we go.

However - if this is a bottle from the 40s - it potentially fits the story to its acquisition, but the selo remains unexplained!

[DRT]

Here is an interesting picture taken by JDAW in the Ferriera tasting room in 2008 showing the embossed bottles that were used for both colheita and vintage...

IMG_7800 copy.jpg (236.49 KiB) Viewed 6110 times

[RAYC]

Yes - the OP's 27 label is most similar to the style of the 66VP label.

[g-man]

Yes - the OP's 27 label is most similar to the style of the 66VP label.

but the 66 vp bottle isn't embossed

Oh Constantino, why must you trouble us so!

[DRT]

Yes - the OP's 27 label is most similar to the style of the 66VP label.

but the 66 vp bottle isn't embossed

Which means that the 1927 was bottled before 1968 so perhaps in 1929

[JB vintage]

We have established it has a selo that was put on many years after 1929.
We have established that it uses a typeface that wasn't available until 1957, at which point Constantino labels presumably used a version of the 'handwritten' label archived by Phil here.
We have established that after 1963ish, the typeface used on the label (for that word VINTAGE, and the date) was that seen above.
So, what have we established?

As djewesbury states above we have concluded that the selo does not match the label and the label doesn't match the bottle and non match the story. The only way it can be real is that someone has made several serious mistakes, and in that case it might as well be a Tuke Holdsworth Ruby, or whatever.

How many faults do you need to conclude that it is not right? Judging by all the discrepancies stated by djewesbury above, and for a few others mentioned by other writers, there is no evidence at all suggesting that this is a Vintage. If I were to hazard a guess I would say that this is a cheep Constantino tawny dressed up in a new label to make it look more expensive and a slip taken from another bottle to make it look real.

[DRT]

We have established it has a selo that was put on many years after 1929.
We have established that it uses a typeface that wasn't available until 1957, at which point Constantino labels presumably used a version of the 'handwritten' label archived by Phil here.
We have established that after 1963ish, the typeface used on the label (for that word VINTAGE, and the date) was that seen above.
So, what have we established?

As djewesbury states above we have concluded that the selo does not match the label and the label doesn't match the bottle and non match the story. The only way it can be real is that someone has made several serious mistakes, and in that case it might as well be a Tuke Holdsworth Ruby, or whatever.

How many faults do you need to conclude that it is not right? Judging by all the discrepancies stated by djewesbury above, and for a few others mentioned by other writers, there is no evidence at all suggesting that this is a Vintage. If I were to hazard a guess I would say that this is a cheep Constantino tawny dressed up in a new label to make it look more expensive and a slip taken from another bottle to make it look real.

So how do you explain the fact that the bottle and label of the claimed Constantino 1927 (that you say must be fake because nothing matches) is almost identical (apart from the vintage date) to a bottle photographed in the tasting room of the shipper that owns the Constantino brand?

Look again at what djewesbury actually said and consider the following:

1. "The selo was put on many years after the vintage" - this is true for almost every ex-cellars bottle ever released. It is perfectly normal.

2. "The typeface wasn't available until 1957" - so if the bottle was released ex-cellars after 1957 it is perfectly ok to have that typeface on the label.

3. "After 1963 the typeface [on Constantino labels] was as see above" - so the 1927 label is exactly the type of label we see on Constantino bottles after 1963.

The evidence you are trying to use to point to this being a fake actually points to it being a real Constantino VP from 1927 the was released by Ferreira after 1963. There is no evidence, as in none, that shows this to have been created as a forgery. The only thing in doubt is when the Aunt's husband received the bottle.

[djewesbury]

+1

[Glenn E.]

The evidence you are trying to use to point to this being a fake actually points to it being a real Constantino VP from 1927 the was released by Ferreira after 1963. There is no evidence, as in none, that shows this to have been created as a forgery. The only thing in doubt is when the Aunt's husband received the bottle.

The information about the 1927 Constantino Colheita being bottled in the 1940s could possibly explain the Aunt's date. If it was received in the early 1970s along with a story of having been bottled in the 1940s, that could easily cause confusion and end up decades later with a story of having been received in the 1940s.

Which would make it a Colheita.

Otherwise I'm with DRT. This is a perfectly legitimate bottle that was released after Ferreira bought the stocks (whether VP or Colheita).

[DRT]

I think we need to wait on a picture of the 1941 from Julian or Andy before calling the vintage v colheita debate. We know for sure that the 1941 was a vintage port so if the label is the same as the 1927 and 1947 it would point to this bottle also being vintage.

[djewesbury]

The evidence you are trying to use to point to this being a fake actually points to it being a real Constantino VP from 1927 the was released by Ferreira after 1963. There is no evidence, as in none, that shows this to have been created as a forgery. The only thing in doubt is when the Aunt's husband received the bottle.

The information about the 1927 Constantino Colheita being bottled in the 1940s could possibly explain the Aunt's date. If it was received in the early 1970s along with a story of having been bottled in the 1940s, that could easily cause confusion and end up decades later with a story of having been received in the 1940s.

Which would make it a Colheita.

Otherwise I'm with DRT. This is a perfectly legitimate bottle that was released after Ferreira bought the stocks (whether VP or Colheita).

Except that it couldn't have been bottled in the 1940s. We established that..!

[DRT]

The information about the 1927 Constantino Colheita being bottled in the 1940s could possibly explain the Aunt's date.

My reading of that article is slightly different to yours. I think it is saying that Constantino wine from the 1927 vintage was bottled in the 1940s but it doesn't say that they didn't also bottle some in 1929 as VP. Many houses have VP and Colheita from the same vintage.

[DRT]

Except that it couldn't have been bottled in the 1940s. We established that..!

Not quite. We established that it couldn't have been labelled thus in the 1940s

[RAYC]

As djewesbury states above we have concluded that the selo does not match the label

I do not agree with this at all - for instance, if you had bought any of the 1963s that the Symingtons have released to the market recently (or indeed the 45s they auctioned at Christies), they would come with a fresh, modern selo. In 50 years time, someone concluding that they were fakes because the selo and the bottle were from different eras would be wrong.

I think the most likely explanation is that this is a genuine constantino, probably colheita, that was labelled and selo'd in the 70s before it left the lodge/winery. The labelling was potentially wrong (my opinion, based only on other bottles i have seen from the 20s / 30s so probably unsound), and the story probably got confused over the years.

Now that this thread has run to 3 pages, I'm intrigued and would be willing to take a punt on it at the right price to see what it actually is!

[djewesbury]

Except that it couldn't have been bottled in the 1940s. We established that..!

Not quite. We established that it couldn't have been labelled thus in the 1940s

But then when was it labelled, and when did the aunt procure it? And who left this piece of lead pipe in the library?

[RAYC]

We need Axel to join the conversation and post his photos of the Constantino vertical he went to (which included the 1927 VP)!

[jdaw1]

In 2009 a dozen or so ers went to Quinta do Crasto and consumed this bottle. Andy and Julian were both there and, if memory serves me correctly, were never without cameras in hand.

Sorry not I.

[Glenn E.]

The information about the 1927 Constantino Colheita being bottled in the 1940s could possibly explain the Aunt's date.

My reading of that article is slightly different to yours. I think it is saying that Constantino wine from the 1927 vintage was bottled in the 1940s but it doesn't say that they didn't also bottle some in 1929 as VP. Many houses have VP and Colheita from the same vintage.

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that a 1927 VP doesn't exist, just that for the story to exist to confuse the Aunt this bottle would have to be one of the Colheitas that was bottled in the 1940s.

[Glenn E.]

Except that it couldn't have been bottled in the 1940s. We established that..!

Not quite. We established that it couldn't have been labelled thus in the 1940s

But then when was it labelled, and when did the aunt procure it?

A perfectly realistic scenario for this bottle:

1. Harvested in 1927
2. Bottled in 1940s but not released
3. Sold en masse to Ferreira in 1963
4. Released (and given a Selo) by Ferreira in the early 1970s
5. Received by Aunt & Uncle in the early 1970s, or late 1970s, or 1980s... along with a story about how it was bottled in the 1940s
6. Decades pass, the story fades and is confused, and a post is made on TPF

Another viable scenario deletes point 2 and the story part of point 5. This allows it to be a VP but doesn't explain why anyone would think it was received in the 1940s.

And who left this piece of lead pipe in the library?

I blame Colonel Mustard.

[DRT]

And who left this piece of lead pipe in the library?

Detective Velebil when he was hiding the evidence of the photos of the 1941 VP.

[DRT]

A perfectly realistic scenario for this bottle:

1. Harvested in 1927
2. Bottled in 1940s but not released
3. Sold en masse to Ferreira in 1963
4. Released (and given a Selo) by Ferreira in the early 1970s
5. Received by Aunt & Uncle in the early 1970s, or late 1970s, or 1980s... along with a story about how it was bottled in the 1940s
6. Decades pass, the story fades and is confused, and a post is made on TPF

Another viable scenario deletes point 2 and the story part of point 5. This allows it to be a VP but doesn't explain why anyone would think it was received in the 1940s.

I prefer your second scenario simply because we know that Constantino produced VPs and labelling mistakes are extremely rare, as is bottling Colheita without shipping it. I don't think the confusion needs to be related to an event involving the bottle. We know that the uncle was in the trade so would have known about things such as this. But the aunt is the wife of a man with a passion for Port. If any of us told our other half a story about a specific bottle of Port today how many of them would remember that story tomorrow, never mind four or five decades from now!

[Glenn E.]

I prefer your second scenario simply because we know that Constantino produced VPs and labelling mistakes are extremely rare, as is bottling Colheita without shipping it. I don't think the confusion needs to be related to an event involving the bottle. We know that the uncle was in the trade so would have known about things such as this. But the aunt is the wife of a man with a passion for Port. If any of us told our other half a story about a specific bottle of Port today how many of them would remember that story tomorrow, never mind four or five decades from now!

True enough.

The most convincing point to me is that Colheitas aren't generally held back after bottling. They might be, but really why bother bottling if you're going to continue holding it afterwards?

My wife can probably remember what all four of us were wearing at Quinta da Pacheca in 2008. I do not question her memory, as I've been made the fool far too often already.

[jdaw1]

The original poster sought advice about a bottle he believes is valuable. Please could his question be answered and then his attention drawn to the answer with a PM, as he might have lost interest some posts ago.

[DRT]

I have sent an email.

[DRT]

hi, my 86 yr old auntie has given me 3 bottles of vintage port to sell and also a bottle of 70% john haig Dimples whisky, we know one of them is worth quite a lot. we need to know how to go about selling them, can anyone advise me, Thanks

The original question was actually asking for advice on how to sell the bottles, not asking for a price. I made a recommendation a couple of pages ago to take the bottles to what appeared to be a long-standing and reputable wine merchant in Rochester. Perhaps that is what has happened.

[Andy Velebil]

And who left this piece of lead pipe in the library?

Detective Velebil when he was hiding the evidence of the photos of the 1941 VP.

in a training class today will check my photos when I get home. And it was a candle stick, not a lead pipe

[DRT]

And who left this piece of lead pipe in the library?

Detective Velebil when he was hiding the evidence of the photos of the 1941 VP.

in a training class today will check my photos when I get home. And it was a candle stick, not a lead pipe

Sounds like a fit-up to me!

[Andy Velebil]

These were all opened at Quinta do Crasto. The one on the left was provided by Miguel Roquette (son of the current owner of Crasto and who's great grandfather and grandfather made all these). This bottle has been in the family possession since it was produced. The other two were from my cellar, bought at auction in the past 8 years. A lot of emails prior to the tasting, discussion during, and follow up converstaion after ensued as there was some research on Miguel's part regarding the 1920 and 1958. So some of this information is new even to some of the other 'ers who were at this dinner.

The one on the left is a very old NV Roncao Velho tawny Port. (quite tasty I may add)

The middle one from 1920 is a Colheita. At the time we drank this Miguel had never actually seen a bottle of this 1920, but he had the records at the table proving it was authentic. It had an authentic original capsule. The cork didn't come out in one piece and we couldn't read it accurately (the bottle was saved and given to Miguel).

The right one ended up being a Vintage Port with "Crasto 1958" on the cork. Though the label was a recreation and someone erroneously put Colheita on it, the contents and cork were authentic per Miguel. Though, Miguel had never seen a 1958 in person and had never seen this old of a Constantino VP with "Crasto" printed on the cork. He did find records of a small amount of this being made. Most likely this wasn't commercially released but that is speculation as he couldn't find records to prove either way.

As you will notice the bottle for the 1920 Colheita and the 1958 VP are plain smooth glass bottles. There is no raised logo. All of these bottles were pre-Constantino being sold in the 60's.

As the right two bottles are very similar in shape, it was theorized by Miguel that these were released around the same time period, just prior to the sale of the company. One being a Colheita, the other a VP. That would make sense as the VP would have been bottled in 1960 or 1961. The company being sold a few years later.

The left bottle, being a tawny, has the raised letters. You can see the logo wasn't the best of quality.

[Andy Velebil]

This was taken at the Ferreira tasting lab. As you can see some of the bottles with "Vintage" on the labels use t-corks. This indicates it was NOT a Vintage Port but a single vintage tawny port. And based on the strip labels were destined as export to the USA. As "21 Brands" was based in New York.

[Andy Velebil]

Finally, the 1958 cork...

[Andy Velebil]

Here is a 1924 Colheita which I took and opened at Quinta do Crasto in 2009. Same bottle shape and label as the 1920 opened a year later (see above pic).

[Andy Velebil]

and the 1941 we had in 2009. There was some discussion if this was a Tawny or a Ruby Port, as a couple people didn't think it was a tawny. From my notes and recollection most sided more this was a tawny and not a VP. Made in a Portuguese style with a more fruit forward component to it. But IIRC even Miguel wasn't 100% sure if this was a VP or a Tawny, but leaned more toward it being a tawny.

[g-man]

love it

this has been one awesome thread

[DRT]

OK, Andy (and Glenn), I wholeheartedly concede that this might be a colheita - but is probably a VP

...and one thing that is abundantly clear from the collection of photographs we now have is that this bottle is absolutely not a fake.

[JB vintage]

To try to get a definite answer I wrote to a friend at the at the Port wine institute. After consulting the IVDP archives they wrote:

"This seal number was not sold to Constantino. This seal was sold in 1991 to Croft! They’ve never owned Constantino therefore this is really strange."

[DRT]

Interesting.

That was during the period when Croft was owned by United Distillers. At the same time Sandeman was owned by Seagram. United Distillers and Seagram subsequently became part of what is now Deagio. Sandeman then bacame part of Sogrape, who own Ferriera, who own Constantino. There is therefore a tenuous corporate link between Croft and Constantino during the 1990s.

Is it possible that a box of IVDP selos originally issued to Croft found their way to a labelling room in Sogrape?

I have seen a few bottling facilities with random boxes of selos scattered around the floor and not under any apparent control. Mergers, acquisitions and disposals have a habit of scattering uncontrolled assets to the winds. Perhaps that happened here?

[JB vintage]

Interesting.

That was during the period when Croft was owned by United Distillers. At the same time Sandeman was owned by Seagram. United Distillers and Seagram subsequently became part of what is now Deagio. Sandeman then bacame part of Sogrape, who own Ferriera, who own Constantino. There is therefore a tenuous corporate link between Croft and Constantino during the 1990s.

Is it possible that a box of IVDP selos originally issued to Croft found their way to a labelling room in Sogrape?

I have seen a few bottling facilities with random boxes of selos scattered around the floor and not under any apparent control. Mergers, acquisitions and disposals have a habit of scattering uncontrolled assets to the winds. Perhaps that happened here?

I have no idea

[CPR 1]

Most fascinating thread - not withstanding that no firm conclusions have been possible, how much of a problem if at all is fake bottles in peoples experience?

[LGTrotter]

Most fascinating thread - not withstanding that no firm conclusions have been possible, how much of a problem if at all is fake bottles in peoples experience?

This thought may be worth a thread of its own. I can't say I have ever noticed a fake, not many duds either but then again I smoke fags so how could I tell? (as Dorothy parker once quipped on being told that Calvin Coolidge was dead.)

[Andy Velebil]

Been quite busy at work this week and haven't had a chance to do an in-depth search. But Paul Symington himself posted the information about his grandfather being on the committee which drew up the rules on VP after WW2. If someone cares to poke around FTLOP for a bit I'm sure they can find it.

Most fascinating thread - not withstanding that no firm conclusions have been possible, how much of a problem if at all is fake bottles in peoples experience?

I've only seen two bottles in person which were clearly fake. I've also been told by a couple others they've run across a fake or two in their time. So it seems relatively low to find counterfeit bottles. At least low compared to how much is counterfeited from Bordeaux and Burgundy or in China. But it does happen and I'd venture to say it is going to probably start happening more often now that there are more "luxury" bottlings of VP, such as Stone Terrace, Capela, Vargellas Vinha Velha, etc.

[LGTrotter]

There seem to be versions of what is fake; there is something which is misattributed ("believed Taylor 48" when actually it is a 66), the deliberate forgery such as that alleged against Kurwinian. I have some bottles that I have no idea what they are and neither did the people who sold them to me.

Fake seems rather an emotive word to use about some of these variations, I have no particular objection to 'believed so and so' as this is often reflected in the price. I would observe however that some sellers seem to take the most optimistic view about the vintage and shipper of their wine.

[jdaw1]

I have bought a Cockburn ‟believed 1950s”, which was 1960. I didn’t feel robbed.

I have bought a share of a case of ‟believed 1955”, some of which was ’55, some ’48, at least one ’35, and a ’27. I didn’t feel robbed.

[LGTrotter]

I have bought a Cockburn ‟believed 1950s”, which was 1960. I didn’t feel robbed.

I have bought a share of a case of ‟believed 1955”, some of which was ’55, some ’48, at least one ’35, and a ’27. I didn’t feel robbed.

I agree; one of the finest excitements of port is taking a punt on anonymous bottles.

[audi4563]

Ok, so the 3 bottles of port are now for sale if anyone is at all interested................

[DRT]

Ok, so the 3 bottles of port are now for sale if anyone is at all interested................

As you live in Rochester I would suggest you take them to Dickens House Wine Emporium and ask them for a valuation and to make you an offer. They seem to have a reasonable selection of Port and fine wines so should know what they are doing.

Did you try this? I think it is your easiest route to selling your bottles unless someone here is willing to make you an offer.